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Evolution and Teleology

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by Wandering Monk, May 25, 2020.

  1. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Do you think evolution has a certain purpose?

    I had a talk with a friend of mine once who is religious but believes evolution to be a fact. He thought evolution might have a purpose: so the universe can comprehend itself.

    I thought about it for a second and started to wonder: if evolution had a purpose, wouldn't it make sense that it would be to be completely free of physical restraints and demands for a creature of pure energy to develop?

    I probably missed several obvious objections to the notion.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I don't see it as purposeful, just a mindless process in which all things develop over time. And it still doesn't require anything but time to perform that process
     
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    The observed changes in species look like Brownian motion together with a force that is, in essence, natural selection. If it had a purpose, the data would look rather different (for example, why do toothless birds have the genes for teeth?).
     
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  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Maybe, but to me, most likely not.

    However, if it had a purpose, I would personally expect that purpose to be something we could not understand, but perhaps our daughter and granddaughter species would be far enough along the way to understand. I have no good reason for such an expectation -- it's just a hunch.



    Way above my pay grade, but interesting.
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    The first issue is that it is not possible to have something consisting of "pure energy". That is Star Trek rather than science. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system of some kind, even if the physical system is only a field, rather than matter.

    The second issue is that there is no evidence that evolution has any purpose. It is just a result of the operation of the usual physical order in nature. Those of us with religious sympathies may feel, aesthetically, that the order in nature is created, and we may feel there could thus be a purpose to natural processes, but if there is, it is not objectively apparent what it may be.

    Even the most committed religious believers have a hard time saying why they think God created the heavens and the earth.
     
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Science has determined that nature is deterministic within the possible range of outcomes. The only thing that is known to be random is the outcome of individual events within a range of possible outcomes.

    It is generally accepted that given the suitable environment abiogenesis and evolution of life are the natural outcome, but there is no evidence that the evolution of humans or other intelligent life is necessary from the scientific perspective. The evidence indicates that the fact that similar forms are known to evolve in response to similar environments have similar outcomes.

    The belief of abiogenesis and evolution as having a purpose beyond the possible range natural outcomes is a religious belief, and cannot be confirmed not negated from the scientific perspective. but the fact that similar forms are known to evolve in response to similar environments have similar outcomes. It is possible that the dice are loaded, and the outcome in a similar environment as on earth there would be a similar outcome of abiogenesis, evolution and intelligent life like humans, but this degree of certainty cannot be confirmed by science.
     
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I think that I somewhat agree, but I also agree with the other posters. The evidence (that we can comprehend) does suggest that evolution works automatically, randomly, taking us nowhere in particular, *however* I also think that there are relations which are too complicated for us to understand. I think of them as 'Higher' or perhaps 'Intangible' relations. We humans do Ok but struggle with simple geometry. We understand circles, triangles, squares etc. We get bogged down on shapes that are irregular or that have too many sides or facets. We have to start summarizing and finding formulas for them. We can't just think about them as one thing. The some thing goes for very complicated chains of events. There are a lot of things we don't know and relationships we probably cannot compute.
     
  8. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Yes. To develop greater and greater consciousness until it's fully developed and the Self can be realized.
     
  9. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    What exactly does this statement mean?
     
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  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Just getting back to your question about "the Self can be realized".

    My statement comes from formulations of the spiritual path. The goal is to realize the Self, who we really, are beyond our every day thoughts, feelings and actions.
     
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  11. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    We live and are the self and technology and invention in science is the only status for advancement past what they already know in science.

    Natural does not advance, it changes in the environment in which it exists.

    So if you were an irradiated Earth human in the past and were mutated, today you are healed....and the evolved would be cooling processes that would not be evolution but in fact a gain of what it used to be.

    Hence today science knows a long time in our higher self natural past, when we were more spiritual and aware, the Earth was different also.

    Reasoning, by studies and applied observation.....archaeological evidence and geological evidence. Yet the human science self had to make the choices to do those forms of observations....so then you would claim self memory as you re develop and evolve self healing allows you to obtain thoughts that advise, once you were higher and technology and sciences were more advanced.

    Which then would be a true advice to self....and that answer is the equals as to why you lived a mutated human life in the past.....yet give claim that it was the fault of the Ape.

    Reason….you cannot give a comparison to your previous once owned higher life self and higher owned science technologies of the past, so you can only look back to what is lower in comparison than you and blame it for your mutation.

    Then in human life the redeveloping of the lower destroyer science psyche then looks to the advanced healthier spiritual self, and then chose to attack them in all new age scientific studies claiming that they will give them the answer to their original science technologies in the knowledge that they their own self were once a much higher loving/kind and caring human....yet prove to make that choice today that they are still expressing their mutation as the thinker of the cause of it.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I consider the question; "the Self can be realized".is interesting, but an abstract philosophical goal and very subjective and illusive from the different cultural perspectives. Which leads to the contradictions and paradoxes of the contemporary world from a more universal perspective that no one can be absolutely right to any degree.

    In the East it is believed in various forms as the goal of attaining enlightenment. In the West it is most often expressed in religious terms of the Abrahamic religions, and also from the Western mystical aspect, such as Gnosticism, Transcendentalism, Theosophy, the Fourth Way, and Neo-Paganism.

    Yes part of these goals relate to going beyond the objective reality to some sort of attainment in the abstract sense, There lies the problem, so many people of different cultures make the claim of attainment from their perspective only.

    If you relate to such desires from a more objective As a part of the human social and psychological evolution there is a desire of a 'sense of belonging and identity, which assures the individual in the survival as a part of attainment and the survival of the group.

    Another perspective that is interesting is 'What is Self Realization?' in the concept of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

    What do people actually attain when they make these claims of attainment?
     
    #12 shunyadragon, Jun 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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