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Evolution and Marriage....

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution? Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible? And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with? The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I don't know why this thread is in an evolution-vs-creationism area. And it ignores the billions that are not Christian.

But one answer is educational status for the USA at least: In 2015, among adults ages 25 and older, 65% with a four-year college degree were married, compared with 55% of those with some college education and 50% among those with no education beyond high school. Twenty-five years earlier, the marriage rate was above 60% for each of these groups.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution?
Yes, as is the inclination to dominate and to have violent tendencies.

Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible?
No, and there is not a growing disrespect for the Bible. Its always been very controversial, but we are in a rough patch. Maybe its because the Bible has been sold and sold in a way that is not appropriate, but that is just my opinion of why we are in the rough patch. I mean, its the most printed book, ever, and the most misunderstood.

And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with?
Marriage helps deal with jealousy for one thing, and people are naturally born in an approximately 50/50 ratio. Also it is a way of negotiating peace between neighbors. Its also a barrier against oppression. One man with many wives has a serious advantage over a man with one or none.

The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.
Girls and boys fall in love a lot, and there's a natural drive to have children and provide a peaceful home for them.

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.
What has changed recently is a shift from arranged marriage to dating, plus about 1000 other things like technological revolution.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution?

No, partner-selection and commitment is an acquired evolutionary trait that helps control disease among the population.

Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible?

Directly, no. Indirectly, maybe.

And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with? The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.

Basically, three reasons, disease control, child care, and protection of women.

For the first reason:

STDs aren't seen as that big of a deal today in Western cultures where treatment is common.

But historically??

STDs were severe. They could cause your flesh to rot from your body and endure some sort of living hell. It's why I can't really find it within me to condemn ancient societies with harsh laws against adultery. Cheating on your partner was essentially gambling with their life.

Marriage, by keeping people into small groups (either a man and a woman or a man and multiple women, considering for the vast majority of history there were more surviving women than men) with little-to-no outside sexual contact limits the spread of STD's, thus helping to stop epidemics.

It's one of those things we picked up without really understanding why we were doing it, like our aversion towards decay and rot. Marriage helps avoid disease.

It also helps guarantee paternity for a child. This allows a father to recognize "this is my child" and thus gives the father an incentive to care for and protect that child, thus dividing the workload of providing for and caring for the child.

Finally it provides a level of protection for women. Back in ancient times, when workplace fatalities were a lot higher than they were today, a society benefited from having gender roles in the workforce. If men are the only ones allowed to the more dangerous jobs, then more women will survive. If more women survive, your next generation will be larger, and your society will out-compete societies without these gender roles, because yours creates more people over time.

But, because of the higher risk, generally more risky jobs pay better. So to ensure that women can still profit off of the resources of the high-risk jobs while being insulated from the death those jobs can cause, marriage provides a system of pooled resources where a male with a high-risk high-earning job can pair up with a woman with a low-risk low-earning job.

Also of note, we probably had these societal gender roles before we even had people (Edit: REALLY bad choice of words, I meant "before we even were human", basically.).

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.

No, marriage is good for the three above reasons.

There is a bit of a problem though.

As technology has increased, so have workplace fatalities fallen dramatically. Workplace fatalities are so low in the Western World, we don't really have a need for gender roles in the workplace, and so we have gotten rid of them. Women can do dangerous jobs without major societal consequences as those jobs have become so safe that female workplace deaths have negligible impact on reproduction.

So one of the three reasons marriage was good is no longer valid.

And STDs are not as big of a problem in the Western World, where methods of protection and treatments have been developed to combat this. STDs, of course, can still be life-ruining but nowhere near on the scale that older generations or modern third-world countries have to worry about it.

So one reason for marriage is no longer valid and one reason isn't as important as it once was.

Which I believe is the reason that many people are now thinking marriage itself is unnecessary. Dangerous work is safer and promiscuity is also safer, and thus more people are interested in both of those things.

Though marriage still helps in dividing resources for child-rearing. Which leaves us with a bit of a problem, since it is shown that children who grow up in single-parent households, on aggregate, have more problems than children who grow up with more than one adult in the home. (please note I stated on aggregate. Of course there are individuals with great single parents who turn out great or children with multiple terrible parents who turn out horribly, but when looking in general on a trend...)

So I think that there's still that one really good social reason for marriage, not to mention the fact that we've been evolving in marriage-oriented societies for thousands of years, and so psychologically, by this point, we might simply be geared for long-term committed partnership. I think the trend we see in people turning away from marriage is due to them noticing, whether unconsciously or consciously, that some of the old reasons for marriage are less valid, without noticing the one important reason left that makes it important.
 
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Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Religion and culture have little to do with biology.

I'm genuinely curious... so where on earth do you think religion and culture (especially culture) comes from?? Were all human cultures invented by Gods or Aliens and were merely given to humans with no regards to our biological necessity??

Is not, for example, a cultural practice of building cities next to rivers driven by a biological need for food and water??

Is culinary culture and cuisine in no way influenced by what we biologically need to eat to survive?? At the very least isn't our cuisine based on our very-much-biological taste buds??

A culture with recreational falconry or hunting... those things are, in your eyes, in no way driven by biological needs??
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution? Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible? And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with? The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.

I like being married, but it's an option. Not opting for it is not a bad thing.

Nor is lawful sex outside of marriage unless it involves betrayal or irresponsible behavior.

People have more choices today than in the past. That is a good thing.

Growing numbers of people find that the Bible doesn't speak to their issues and concerns. They aren't very interested in what it has to say about marriage, which is actually a little shocking:

 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No, partner-selection and commitment is an acquired evolutionary trait that helps control disease among the population.



Directly, no. Indirectly, maybe.



Basically, three reasons, disease control, child care, and protection of women.

For the first reason:

STDs aren't seen as that big of a deal today in Western cultures where treatment is common.

But historically??

STDs were severe. They could cause your flesh to rot from your body and endure some sort of living hell. It's why I can't really find it within me to condemn ancient societies with harsh laws against adultery. Cheating on your partner was essentially gambling with their life.

Marriage, by keeping people into small groups (either a man and a woman or a man and multiple women, considering for the vast majority of history there were more surviving women than men) with little-to-no outside sexual contact limits the spread of STD's, thus helping to stop epidemics.

It's one of those things we picked up without really understanding why we were doing it, like our aversion towards decay and rot. Marriage helps avoid disease.

It also helps guarantee paternity for a child. This allows a father to recognize "this is my child" and thus gives the father an incentive to care for and protect that child, thus dividing the workload of providing for and caring for the child.

Finally it provides a level of protection for women. Back in ancient times, when workplace fatalities were a lot higher than they were today, a society benefited from having gender roles in the workforce. If men are the only ones allowed to the more dangerous jobs, then more women will survive. If more women survive, your next generation will be larger, and your society will out-compete societies without these gender roles, because yours creates more people over time.

But, because of the higher risk, generally more risky jobs pay better. So to ensure that women can still profit off of the resources of the high-risk jobs while being insulated from the death those jobs can cause, marriage provides a system of pooled resources where a male with a high-risk high-earning job can pair up with a woman with a low-risk low-earning job.

Also of note, we probably had these societal gender roles before we even had people.



No, marriage is good for the three above reasons.

There is a bit of a problem though.

As technology has increased, so have workplace fatalities fallen dramatically. Workplace fatalities are so low in the Western World, we don't really have a need for gender roles in the workplace, and so we have gotten rid of them. Women can do dangerous jobs without major societal consequences as those jobs have become so safe that female workplace deaths have negligible impact on reproduction.

So one of the three reasons marriage was good is no longer valid.

And STDs are not as big of a problem in the Western World, where methods of protection and treatments have been developed to combat this. STDs, of course, can still be life-ruining but nowhere near on the scale that older generations or modern third-world countries have to worry about it.

So one reason for marriage is no longer valid and one reason isn't as important as it once was.

Which I believe is the reason that many people are now thinking marriage itself is unnecessary. Dangerous work is safer and promiscuity is also safer, and thus more people are interested in both of those things.

Though marriage still helps in dividing resources for child-rearing. Which leaves us with a bit of a problem, since it is shown that children who grow up in single-parent households, on aggregate, have more problems than children who grow up with more than one adult in the home. (please note I stated on aggregate. Of course there are individuals with great single parents who turn out great or children with multiple terrible parents who turn out horribly, but when looking in general on a trend...)

So I think that there's still that one really good social reason for marriage, not to mention the fact that we've been evolving in marriage-oriented societies for thousands of years, and so psychologically, by this point, we might simply be geared for long-term committed partnership. I think the trend we see in people turning away from marriage is due to them noticing, whether unconsciously or consciously, that some of the old reasons for marriage are less valid, without noticing the one important reason left that makes it important.
Thank you for your in-depth response! And you are the only one I've seen, so far, that mentions how children are affected.

That is a very valid concern! Too many, it seems, are only interested in their wants and needs, forgetting about the ill effect on the children that may come from such a union.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Apparently in humans marriage is based on the biological instinct to pair bond. Pair bonding takes many forms, depending on the specific culture, but it is essentially the same everywhere -- people pairing off into couples. According to one study, pair bonding is so popular that over 90% of adults will try it at one time or another during their lives. Even in Western countries, with its relatively low rates of formal, legal marriage among some segments of the population, pair bonding is still popular -- although not always consummated in legal marriage. And pair bonding will remain popular so long as our species exists. We'd have to evolve into a new species to root out the biological instinct on which it is based.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because human children take such a long time to mature (at 72, I'm still a "work in progress"), and since they are dependent on both physical and mental care, marriage of one form or another would have been a logical trend. However, our closest relative is the chimp, and they are promiscuous, which seems to suggest that this latter basic similar drive still resides within us as Freud pointed out with his concept of "id". But since our behavior is more learned than instinctive, most have learned to restrain the promiscuous drive.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution? Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible? And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with? The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.


Pair bonds are found in many species. Formalizing that is something to be expected by an organized society. Since there is no reason to think there is a genetic change going on, any changes are NOT due to evolution.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution?
As opposed to what date and where? Looking where I live, there is less and less prostitutes, especially compared to 1800s! Even the "porno shops" are closing compared to 90s. It seems young people are even getting drunk less and wear less revealing clothing.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Pair bonds are found in many species. Formalizing that is something to be expected by an organized society. Since there is no reason to think there is a genetic change going on, any changes are NOT due to evolution.
So, since the act of formalizing pair bonds is apparently becoming less popular, is Society becoming disorganized ?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution?
Yes of course it is. Everything is evolution. We can talk about the advantages and disadvantages of promiscuity vs monogamous marriage (which has not been the norm in many religious cultures for all that long anyway) but the driver is evolutionary fitness and generally one partner (at least at a time) seems to work reasonably well for our species. Bonobos have a different approach. The long childhood of humans also makes it advantageous to share the load of bringing up baby but in most cultures that used to be a much broader spread involving extended family ties - the western notion of the 'nuclear family' is a relatively recent adaptation arising from our economic success over recent centuries. In evolutionary terms that success is just part of the evolving 'environment' in which the evolution of our species continues.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So, since the act of formalizing pair bonds is apparently becoming less popular, is Society becoming disorganized ?

Well, it is clear that society in the US is. Some other societies are not. But the break down of marriage is NOT the same as the break down of pair bonds. many people pair up for long-term relationships without getting married (letting the government know). Is that a symptom of societal breakdown? Perhaps. But it is also a symptom that people no longer feel the need to get governments involved in their personal affairs.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with?
Marriage as Christians think of it, even the idea of serial polygamy as the West views it, has not really been all that common or popular overall, especially when we consider the idea of marriage for "love." Formal social pairings have been pretty much a universal, but the Christian idea of "one man-one woman" has not been so universal or common. Rather, various forms of polygamy have been more common, as has marriage for political/economic gains and stability, establishing alliances, and other reasons that have nothing to do with the wedded couple having feelings of love for each other. Even during Medieval Europe it was not uncommon or unheard for a bride and groom to first meet on their wedding day, and so very commonly marriages have been arranged by parents.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Since humans today seem inclined to lead promiscuous lives, is this evolution? Or is it directly linked to a growing disrespect for the Bible? And how and why did marriage ever get to be so popular worldwide to begin with? The practice of marriage is observed among many cultures, even those that never had the Bible's influence in their society.

And is marriage a bad thing? I mean, if humans are evolving without needing it; it apparently is the way modern culture is heading.
Promiscuity is very good for evolution which can be religious or non-religious and not limited to scenarios with multiple wives/husbands or one wife and twenty kids, depending on the persons religious or non-religious ideologies.
 
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