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Evolution and a Muslim's perspective

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That's fine. It's only those things in the past which the Bible God has said that He did which I am concerned with.

Why the bible? Why not the quran or the bagavad ghita or any other book?
Why any book?

When a book contradicts observable reality, then what is more likely?
That the book is wrong, or that reality is wrong? :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter what a book says.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No, it is because that is the best educated naturalistic guess that we have at the moment.

There's no need for that qualifier "naturalistic". It's also inappropriate to call it a "guess" as that does not at all properly represent the evidence based conclusions / explanations that come out of scientific inquiry.

Fact remains, the explanations of science work.

As I said in a previous post: if you calibrate GPS satelite clocks to account for relativistic effects, then the system can accurately pinpoint your position on earth. If you don't take into account relativistic effects, then it's off by several miles.

The theory of relativity works. Is it 100% accurate? Likely it isn't. Is it our best approximation to date? It sure is. Is it likely to be completely & utterly wrong? No. If it would be "completely and utterly wrong", then GPS wouldn't work as well as it does.

Take Newton's theory of gravity. Was it completely and utterly wrong? No.
In fact, it works so well that it is still more then adequate for calculations where relativistic effects are so small that they are neglectable. Once speed or gravity goes up, relativistic effects become more prevalent. And then it no longer works well enough. Relativity is more accurate then Newtonian physics. But you can't exactly call Newtonian physics "wrong".

Contrast that with something like creationism. That's a whole other category of "wrong". It's not even a little correct. It's absurdly wrong. So wrong, that some people even refer to it as "not even wrong".

Creationism is not even "guessing". It's rather talking out of ones behind.

Science for example has no idea what life and consciousness is

I think that's debatable, but it certainly hasn't figured those things out properly, so I'll go a long with it.

In any case, I don't see how it is a problem that there are things that science has yet to figure out. Most likely, there are also things that science will simply never figure out. Nobody is claiming science holds the answer to anything and everything. If that were the case, we wouldn't be training scientists anymore and scientists wouldn't even exist, since there'ld be nothing left to study.

The whole point of the scientific enterprise, is to tackle those unanswered questions.

and has not idea that any of the educated naturalistic guesses actually work or are true. But of course it all has to be naturalistic.

We've been over this already. It doesn't "have to be" naturalistic at all.
What it has to be is verifiable.

Sure, it looks for natural causes for natural effects. Do you know why? Because there is no evidence of anything else.

Bring science evidence of supernatural causes producing effects, natural or otherwise, and science will happily include it. In fact, it will likely earn you a nobel.

That is the limitation of science and what it finds is not necessarily the truth.

The limitation of science, is verifiable evidence.

Science has no idea about how a data accumulating and using system like our genes can develop without an intelligence behind the design

It's called evolution theory. Or are you talking about abiogenesis?

, but the scientific answer is that atoms and molecules under the right conditions formed these genes which carry information which other atoms and molecules can read and use to shape a nose or ear etc.

I can guarantee you that the science of abiogenesis is much further along then you think it is.

Having said that, nobody is claiming that science has a conclusive explanation of how life forms. So once again I wonder why you say this as if it is a problem.

It's a question without conclusive answer, so scientists do research and try to find an answer. Why is this a problem?

Mutations are caused by natural random processes but that does not mean the whole system came about that way.

Nobody is saying that evolution explains the origins of life, so I don't know why you say this.

Scientists who try to answer the question of the origins of life, are looking for a (bio)chemical process, sure. Because it is the most likely candidate.

Do you have a better and even more likely candidate in mind? If you do, don't forget to mention the reasons for why it is more likely.

OK then, "They are what they are, naturalistic educated guesses at what must have happened "

As we have seen above...
1. There is no need for the qualifier "naturalistic"
2. the term "guess" isn't a proper representation of what a scientific theory actually is.

And no scientific explanation has this disclaimer attached either.

Neither is the rest of the statement a proper representation of what scientific theories are.

As I said before, this seems to be just some tactic of yours to try and raise up your faith based god-claims, only by trying to bring down science to a similar level of makebelief.

I consider this to be intellectual dishonesty.

If you wish to raise your god-claims, then play fairly and come up with positive evidence FOR those claims, instead of trying to attack those you feel are incompatible.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No they don't all make sense without inserting God into them. They are assumed to be the answers. How do you know we evolved? Because we are here aren't we.


We know we evolved because of the overwhelming evidence that we did.

I have no problem with evolution but I see it as wrong in many ways.
The explanations might seem to make some sense given the scenarios science is presented with to put a mechanism to, but the answers that are worked out have not been tested

Dude... evolution theory is probably one of the best established, most scrutinized and most rigorously tested theories in all of science.

Every single new fossil found, every new genome sequenced, every DNA test.. is essentially a test of evolution theory. Even every act of reproduction by any species, is a test of evolution theory.

If tomorrow a dog gives birth to a cat, evolution is falsified.
If tomorrow you find a rabbit fossil in pre-cambrian strata, evolution is falsified (or time travel is proven :D )
If tormorrow a new genome sequenced shows violations of the law of monophy, evolution is falsified.

and the scenario of development from atoms and molecules to life forms is not necessarily true

But it very likely is.
It's not like chemistry and organic chemistry are unheared of.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No they don't all make sense without inserting God into them. They are assumed to be the answers. How do you know we evolved? Because we are here aren't we.
But they do. Because they exist, they explain the phenomenon that they are meant to explain, and they contain no god claims.

I have no problem with evolution but I see it as wrong in many ways.
The explanations might seem to make some sense given the scenarios science is presented with to put a mechanism to, but the answers that are worked out have not been tested and the scenario of development from atoms and molecules to life forms is not necessarily true.
The explanations do make sense. Everything has been tested. The theory of evolution is the most well substantiated scientific theory in existence.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
If something happened then it is caused by nature. That is all science can say. It may not be able to say just what part of nature, but the answer is always nature. Science never can and never will say God did it. It just is not science. This is a limitation science has. It is also a limitation in it's philosophy.
It is good that many of us realise this limitation and look elsewhere for truths also.
You haven't address my point.

Like I said, someone would have to demonstrate the existence of god(s) before any such god(s) can be inserted into our understanding of the world.
We don't insert unnecessary and unobserved things into scientific theories that haven't ever been demonstrated to exist. Why would we?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
No. Not "just for me".

They work objectively.

When you calibrate the internal atomic clocks of GPS satelites to account for the relativistic effects that are caused by orbitting the planet at 40k km/h, then the GPS can accurately pinpoint your position with an error marging of 1 to 3 meters.

If you don't calbirate the clocks to account for the relativistic effects, then the error margin grows to several miles and the system becomes unusable.

This is so because the theory of relativity works.

This is not just an opinion.

When you build a GPS, it won't work if you don't accept the theory of relativity and account for what it says.
It will if you do.

Science. It works.

I have no idea what you are asking.
Science is neither the product of Atheism (or non-belief of whatever shade) nor Atheism is a product of Science. Right, please?
Science is not under question here, so no need to side with it or use its terminology. Right, please?
Atheism has got nothing to do with Science, rather Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand.
Atheism is just a mental working. Right, please?

Regards
_____________

Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says
50 NOBEL LAUREATES AND OTHER GREAT SCIENTISTS WHO BELIEVE IN GOD
http://nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Science is neither the product of Atheism (or non-belief of whatever shade) nor Atheism is a product of Science. Right, please?
TagliatelliMonster said nothing about atheism. He was talking about only science.

You have been here long enough to know Science don’t equate with atheism. It also don’t equate with theism.

Both atheism and theism have nothing to do with science...PERIOD!

All the scientific theories that have been tested and accepted, have nothing to do with atheism vs theism.

Science is neutral to both atheism and theism, because these two -isms are not science inquiry; they are theological questions with different views on the matters of existence of deity or deities.

And yet, you continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over again...you continued associated falsely associate science with atheism.

Are you really that stubbornly biased and incompetent and ignorant that you cannot learn from your mistakes, paarsurrey?
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
The men who wrote the Bible did not know what happened except what was revealed to them. We also do not know what happened if God designed things.
If that were true, that god revealed to them the creation, and that Genesis creation accounts are dictations of God’s words and infallible knowledge, THEN there are so many mistakes in Genesis 1 & 2, that verifiable evidence have been demonstrated that Genesis creation don’t meet with reality of nature.

So if god was really the author of Genesis 1 and 2, then with so many mistakes, then god must be very ignorant about nature. In essence must be superstitious village bumpkin.

No, Brian2. It is better to say men wrote Genesis with no understanding of how nature works, then to say god doesn’t understand how nature works.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Tagliatelle said nothing about atheism. He was talking about only science.

You have been here long enough to know Science don’t equate with atheism. It also don’t equate with theism.

Both atheism and theism have nothing to do with science...PERIOD!

All the scientific theories that have been tested and accepted, have nothing to do with atheism vs theism.

Science is neutral to both atheism and theism, because these two -isms are not science inquiry; they are theological questions with different views on the matters of existence of deity or deities.

And yet, you continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over again...you continued associated falsely associate science with atheism.

Are you really that stubbornly biased and incompetent and ignorant that you cannot learn from your mistakes, paarsurrey?
" All the scientific theories that have been tested and accepted, have nothing to do with atheism vs theism."
Thanks for one's thoughts on Atheism, please.

Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?

Regards
 

gnostic

The Lost One
" All the scientific theories that have been tested and accepted, have nothing to do with atheism vs theism."
Thanks for one's thoughts on Atheism, please.

Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?

Atheism is just the opposite of theism.

It only deal with the question of existence of deity or deities. They simply don't believe in their existence. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Science has NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM. Science has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEISM, too. Both are outside the scientific inquiry and scientific method, and therefore are irrelevant to science.

And now you are being awfully silly. Bigfoot, fairies? Seriously?

You are so desperate, that you have to make something else up?

Seriously what does anything have to do with TagliatelliMonster's post? Why do you insist on making up something that TagliatelliMonster did say or write?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
" All the scientific theories that have been tested and accepted, have nothing to do with atheism vs theism."
Thanks for one's thoughts on Atheism, please.

Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?

Regards
If anything that is backwards. Theism is much more in the "same category as fairies or bigfoot<sic>".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If anything that is backwards. Theism is much more in the "same category as fairies or bigfoot<sic>".
Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?

If you think fairies and bigfoot are from myths, fairytale or folklore, @paarsurrey, then Muslims believed in spirits and supernatural beings, like soul, angels, demons and jinns.

Jinns are supposed to be entities made of smokeless fire. Angels are often described as looking like humans, but with wings.

So if any group of people believing in supernatural beings, then some Muslims, Christians and Jews are among the Abrahamic religions that literally believe in some things that don’t exist in nature.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you think fairies and bigfoot are from myths, fairytale or folklore, @paarsurrey, then Muslims believed in spirits and supernatural beings, like soul, angels, demons and jinns.

Jinns are supposed to be entities made of smokeless fire. Angels are often described as looking like humans, but with wings.

So if any group of people believing in supernatural beings, then some Muslims, Christians and Jews are among the Abrahamic religions that literally believe in some things that don’t exist in nature.
Just as god stories are from myths. There really is no difference in a belief in Bigfoot and a belief in God.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Just as god stories are from myths. There really is no difference in a belief in Bigfoot and a belief in God.
No differences at all.

Like you said, it is all matter of “BELIEF”.

The “beliefs” in gods are no different from “beliefs” in fairies or angels, demons and jinns.

Religions and their followers are governed by beliefs and faith.

I just wonder why some people don’t see that.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?

If you think fairies and bigfoot are from myths, fairytale or folklore, @paarsurrey, then Muslims believed in spirits and supernatural beings, like soul, angels, demons and jinns.

Jinns are supposed to be entities made of smokeless fire. Angels are often described as looking like humans, but with wings.

So if any group of people believing in supernatural beings, then some Muslims, Christians and Jews are among the Abrahamic religions that literally believe in some things that don’t exist in nature.

Now one may answer the question about Atheism, please.

Regards
 

gnostic

The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Doesn't one agree that "Atheism is in the same category as fairies or bigfoot, I understand." Right, please?



Now one may answer the question about Atheism, please.

I have already answered you questions.

Atheism only deal with the question about the existence of god and gods. Atheists don’t believe in their existence.

That’s all. There is nothing more, nothing less.

Atheism have nothing to do with fairies and Bigfoot.

Atheists exist, there are real people who don’t believe in gods, just as theists are real people who do believe in gods.

Fairies and Bigfoot don’t exist except in fairytale in the case with fairies, and folklore in the case with Bigfoot. They are not real.

You cannot equate atheism with Bigfoot and fairies.

But you can equate people who do believe in gods, also believing in spirits, angels, demons, and in the case of Islam, Muslims believing in jinns. All these entities fit in with the supernatural and imaginary beings, which don’t exist in reality any more than fairies and Bigfoot do.

You got everything backwards, paarsurrey. Theists are more likely to believe in something that don’t exist (eg spirits, angels, demons, gods, etc) than atheists would.

So I have already answered your question...again. I don’t appreciate repeating my answers several times.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I have already answered you questions.

Atheism only deal with the question about the existence of god and gods. Atheists don’t believe in their existence.

That’s all. There is nothing more, nothing less.


Atheism have nothing to do with fairies and Bigfoot.

Atheists exist, there are real people who don’t believe in gods, just as theists are real people who do believe in gods.

Fairies and Bigfoot don’t exist except in fairytale in the case with fairies, and folklore in the case with Bigfoot. They are not real.

You cannot equate atheism with Bigfoot and fairies.

But you can equate people who do believe in gods, also believing in spirits, angels, demons, and in the case of Islam, Muslims believing in jinns. All these entities fit in with the supernatural and imaginary beings, which don’t exist in reality any more than fairies and Bigfoot do.

You got everything backwards, paarsurrey. Theists are more likely to believe in something that don’t exist (eg spirits, angels, demons, gods, etc) than atheists would.

So I have already answered your question...again. I don’t appreciate repeating my answers several times.
" Atheism only deal with the question about the existence of god and gods. Atheists don’t believe in their existence.
That’s all.
There is nothing more, nothing less."

The Atheism people have only to deny God, else, they can hold anything they like with reason or without , there is not restriction on them. Right, please?
They don't have to deny Bigfoot and fairies etc. Right, please?
There is no restriction on them for being superstitious or mythical. Right, please?

It is just a friendly discussion.

Regards
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Atheism people have only to deny God, else, they can hold anything they like with reason or without , there is not restriction on them. Right, please?
As I say so many times now.

Atheism only concern with the question of existence of god, AND NOTHING ELSE!!!!

They (atheists) have no belief in god or gods.

  • Theism is about the belief in existence of god(s).
  • Atheism is about no belief in existence of god(s).

So understand the following:

Is Bigfoot a “god”? No.

Are fairies “gods”? No.​

Hence, they are not gods, therefore they (fairies and Bigfoot) are irrelevant to atheism. You are asking pointless questions when you bring up unrelated and irrelevant and irrational questions.

Even you should understand these answers.

Why do you persist on asking the same questions over and over and over again?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Science never says "I don't know if God did it or not",,,,,,,,,,,,that answer is always, "God did not do it". If there is a God you will never find out for sure by studying scientific answers.
"If there is a God you will never find out for sure by studying scientific answers."

I agree, Science working under obvious limitations as set in Scientific Method cannot find G-d. Right, please?
G-d is to be found if sought after under the reasonable Religious Method of Religion, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Evolution and a Muslim's perspective

I have presented some more verses of Quran on the topic on another sub-forum here, please:
post #3550
Quran mentions:
(3:6:3) yuṣawwirukum shapes you هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَوِّرُكُمْ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ كَيْفَ يَشَاءُ
(7:11:4) ṣawwarnākum We fashioned you وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ صَوَّرْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ
(40:64:9) waṣawwarakum and He formed you وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ وَرَزَقَكُمْ مِنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ
(64:3:5) waṣawwarakum and He formed you وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

[3:7] ہُوَ الَّذِیۡ یُصَوِّرُکُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡحَامِ کَیۡفَ یَشَآءُ ؕ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَ الۡعَزِیۡزُ الۡحَکِیۡمُ ﴿۷﴾
He it is Who fashions you in the wombs as He wills; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
[7:12] وَ لَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنٰکُمۡ ثُمَّ صَوَّرۡنٰکُمۡ ثُمَّ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃِ اسۡجُدُوۡا لِاٰدَمَ ٭ۖ فَسَجَدُوۡۤا اِلَّاۤ اِبۡلِیۡسَ ؕ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ مِّنَ السّٰجِدِیۡنَ ﴿۱۲﴾
And We did create you and then We gave you shape; then said We to the angels, ‘Submit to Adam;’ and they all submitted but Iblis did not; he would not be of those who submit.
[40:65] اَللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡ جَعَلَ لَکُمُ الۡاَرۡضَ قَرَارًا وَّ السَّمَآءَ بِنَآءً وَّ صَوَّرَکُمۡ فَاَحۡسَنَ صُوَرَکُمۡ وَ رَزَقَکُمۡ مِّنَ الطَّیِّبٰتِ ؕ ذٰلِکُمُ اللّٰہُ رَبُّکُمۡ ۚۖ فَتَبٰرَکَ اللّٰہُ رَبُّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ﴿۶۵﴾
Allah it is Who has made for you the earth a resting-place, and the heaven a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes perfect, and has provided you with good things. Such is Allah, your Lord. So blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
[64:4] خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ بِالۡحَقِّ وَ صَوَّرَکُمۡ فَاَحۡسَنَ صُوَرَکُمۡ ۚ وَ اِلَیۡہِ الۡمَصِیۡرُ ﴿۴﴾
He created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made your shapes beautiful, and to Him is the ultimate return.
OOOOOO
Quran does not present spontaneous/hurried/immediate or all of a sudden birth of human/s, please?
Right, please?

Regards
 
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