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Featured Evolution and a Muslim's perspective

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by danieldemol, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    According to my understanding evolution does not have anything to say about whether or not there is a supreme creator. Darwin considered it absurd to doubt that a person could be an ardent theist and evolutionist.

    Evolution does (according to my understanding) reject the concept that humans are a special act of creation as opposed to an evolutionary product of natural selection, however there seems to be plenty of evidence of common genetic material between humans and other apes. For example, "Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees" 1

    How do you propose that common genetic material came to be in our genes if it wasn't through us and chimpanzees having a common ancestor?

    1 Bonobos Join Chimps as Closest Human Relatives
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    JerryMyers said:
    BTW, when I said “evolution is not only rejected by Muslims and Christians, it’s also being rejected by Science”, I am referring to the evolution as presented by Charles Darwin, that is, there’s no Supreme Creator, God and the first man was not created by God. I am just not sure whether we are talking about the same evolution here.
    "the first man was not created by God'

    Quran is not discussing Darwin's thoughts. By Adam, Quran mentions the first man with whom G-d had a Converse. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Well I'm doubtful I'll find the words, "with whom G-d had a Converse." in the Quran if I do a word search so why don't you post the exact words, and the rest of us can try to determine whether your interpretation matches the text.
     
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  4. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    No, science itself is NOT rejecting evolution. But the description given is NOT the scientific theory of evolution. The science mentions no deity at all: it is a description of how biological spaces change.

    And yes, this does include humans. We have evolved from other great apes. If a particular religious texts disagrees with that, then it is rejecting the scientific discoveries.
     
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  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Biblically I think it is possible that apes evolved and when the time came to create man God took the body of one of these apes and changed it slightly and breathed life into it to create man.
    Evolving apes could be how God formed man from the dust of the ground.
     
  6. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    OK. You can re-interpret it all you want.
     
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  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    If God created the laws of nature, is he not responsible for evolution? Is evolution not the HOW in how he brought man into being?
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    [2:36]
    وَ قُلۡنَا یٰۤاٰدَمُ اسۡکُنۡ اَنۡتَ وَ زَوۡجُکَ الۡجَنَّۃَ وَ کُلَا مِنۡہَا رَغَدًا حَیۡثُ شِئۡتُمَا ۪ وَ لَا تَقۡرَبَا ہٰذِہِ الشَّجَرَۃَ فَتَکُوۡنَا مِنَ الظّٰلِمِیۡنَ ﴿۳۶﴾
    And We said: ‘O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully wherever you will, but approach not this tree, lest you be of the wrongdoers.’
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    [2:36]
    وَ قُلۡنَا یٰۤاٰدَمُ اسۡکُنۡ اَنۡتَ وَ زَوۡجُکَ الۡجَنَّۃَ وَ کُلَا مِنۡہَا رَغَدًا حَیۡثُ شِئۡتُمَا ۪ وَ لَا تَقۡرَبَا ہٰذِہِ الشَّجَرَۃَ فَتَکُوۡنَا مِنَ الظّٰلِمِیۡنَ ﴿۳۶﴾
    And We said: ‘O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully wherever you will, but approach not this tree, lest you be of the wrongdoers.’
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Not only is it possible Biblically but it is also possible scientifically, because science does not know what actually happened. It's all extrapolations in a materialistic philosophical bubble,,,,,,,,,,which assumes no God.
     
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  11. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think science does know what happened. Random gene mutation produced differences between humans and other apes, and since humans were more suitable to survival to an array of environments they became the dominant species whilst other species that where unsuitable became extinct.

    I don't see why there would be a need to assume there is no God. Rather we can observe mutation and natural selection at work, so the use of Occam's razor suggests that there is no need for God's interference when it is covered by a natural process.

    It is like the way we don't assume that God's breath forms the ice, because we know that in the absence of sufficient heat the water molecules stick together to form a solid. In other words it is due to a natural observable process. So we don't assume it is miraculous.

    It is obvious to me that the ancient men who wrote the bible did not know what actually happened anyway.
     
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  12. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    In the Quran, people are asked to look around them for the signs of Allah in the natural world. The balance of the world, the rhythms of life, are "signs for those who would believe." The universe is in perfect order: the orbits of the planets, the cycles of life and death, the seasons of the year, the mountains and the rivers, the mysteries of the human body. This order and balance are not haphazard or random. The world and everything in it has been created with a perfect plan by Allah -- the One who knows all.

    This might mean evolution is a part of Gods creation too.


    Islam is a natural faith, a religion of responsibility, purpose, balance, discipline, and simplicity. To be a Muslim is to live your life remembering Allah and striving to follow His merciful guidance.
     
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  13. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I don't agree that Islam is a religion of simplicity, its regulations depending on which interpretation of Islam you follow can cover everything from what you are allowed to eat, to how to wash, to who you are allowed to marry, to how many women it takes to witness a contract.

    To me such over-regulation is not "simple".
     
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  14. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    The human aspect of islam (after the Prophet passed may have created some " need for control " from human being, but the teaching in it self when understood is very simple, humans has a tendency to complicate it.

    It is ok to have different understand :) some call it disagreement, but it is just different way of looking at it.
     
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  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The men who wrote the Bible did not know what happened except what was revealed to them. We also do not know what happened if God designed things. Science comes up with naturalistic answers for everything but that may not be the correct answer.
    Random mutations may not be random at all. It seems to me that certain outcomes were already known in the system that was given for evolution, the gene system. The system just headed in a certain direction, to the desired outcome, desired by God the designer.
    Science does not even know how a data collection and use system (our genes) could come to exist naturally.
    When it comes to humans, the problem for a Bible believer is that we have the first 2 humans, not a colony of humans, and God specially created them. The thing about science and evolution is the general process but science cannot tell if God stepped in and did things along the way to guide the process, as in maybe taking an evolved body of some hominid and changing it in maybe minor ways and creating man from it.
    Occam's razor is not really proof of anything, it is just a way of simplifying things for science and may just lead science into wrong answers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,understandably of course.
     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Your average creationist answer is going to ultimately end up in: "magic".
     
  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty intellectually dishonest of you not to quote the parts where it talks about how allah, according to the quran, fashioned Adam from clay:

    "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26)

    And in another verse, it is made clear that it really does concern a "special act of creation", as it is noted explicitly that mankind was created from that single original pair:

    "Oh humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored among you in the sight of Allah is the who is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49:13).


    So no, it is pretty explicit about it. There's no "evolution is how god made man" in the quran. Not even by a longshot. Unless, off course, one reads all kinds of stuff into it and / or one starts to arbitrarily view things as "metaphorical" with as only real reason that it is incompatible with scientific findings.
     
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  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    The genome of humans looks like the result of reproduction with modification followed by selection, just like we observe in every biological reproduction event both in the wild as well as in the lab.
    There is no reason, at all, to believe that there was artificial genetic manipulation going on at all.

    So if your god fiddled around with the genes in our ancient ancestors to "force" the evolution of homo sapiens, then he went out of his way to cover his tracks and to make it look as if it was a natural evolution.
     
    #18 TagliatelliMonster, Nov 16, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    When you say that these things are "perfect", what exactly do you mean by that? What are you contrasting it too?

    Because if by "perfect" you mean "perfect for harboring human life", then I have news for you: it absolutely is not!

    The universe is out to kill us at every turn.
    MOST of the earth is inhospitable for humans.
    The VAST VAST majority of the universe is as well.
    Radiation from the sun gives us skin cancer
    Space rocks can crash into the earth and kill everything that weighs more then 5 kg, just like already happened in the past multiple times.
    Volcano's can plummet the world in nuclear winter (in fact, we are overdue for one of those super eruptions).

    The human body? Perfect??? Are you joking?

    We have a vestigial appendix that can explode and kill us.
    Our mouth is too small to house all our teeth, which is why most of us have wisdom teeth removed.
    Our spine isn't actually that fit for bipedalism, causing lower back pains in 70% of humans.
    All humans are, biologically seeing, born prematurely because the woman's hips are too narrow (due to bipedalism again) to carry the full term. This is actually one of the many reasons why infant mortality is so enormous without 21st century medical assistance - and the same goes for death of the mother during labor.

    Perfect? Please.... compared to WHAT exactly?

    If something is "perfect", then that would mean that it couldn't be improved any further.
    So if I can come up with just 1 thing that would improve our condition, then I will have refuted the idea of the universe being "perfect", right?

    Well, easy: remove all rogue space rocks from the solar system. That would lower the probability of giant meteor impacts to just about 0%. There. Improvement. 0% chance of impact is better then 0.0000000001% chance of impact.


    Not according to the Quran though.

    Maybe you should read the story in the quran about the creation of Adam.
     
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  20. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Ok :)
     
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