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Featured Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Hockeycowboy, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    Evidences Biblical Flood actually never happened:

    Living ancient bristle cone pine trees > 5,000 years of age...

    Bristlecone pines are known for attaining great ages in excess of 5,000 years.

    References: Brown, P.M. 1996. OLDLIST: A database of maximum tree ages. In: J.S. Dean, D.M. Meko, and T.W. Swetnam, eds., Tree Rings, Environment, and Humanity: Proceedings of the International Conference, Tucson, Arizona, 17-21 May, 1994. Radiocarbon 1996:727-731

    An Ancient Bristlecone Pine Stand in Eastern Nevada
    Donald R. Currey
    Ecology
    Vol. 46, No. 4 (Jul., 1965), pp. 564-566
    Published by: Wiley on behalf of the Ecological Society of America
    DOI: 10.2307/1934900
    An Ancient Bristlecone Pine Stand in Eastern Nevada on JSTOR


    Australian aboriginal culture > 1,000 consecutive generations...

    In a 2011 genetic study by Ramussen et al., researchers took a DNA sample from an early 20th century lock of an Aboriginal person's hair with low European admixture. They found that the ancestors of the Aboriginal population split off from the Eurasian population between 62,000 and 75,000 BP, whereas the European and Asian populations split only 25,000 to 38,000 years BP, indicating an extended period of Aboriginal genetic isolation. These Aboriginal ancestors migrated into South Asia and then into Australia, where they stayed, with the result that, outside of Africa, the Aboriginal peoples have occupied the same territory continuously longer than any other human populations. These findings suggest that modern Aboriginal peoples are the direct descendants of migrants who left Africa up to 75,000 years ago. This finding is compatible with earlier archaeological finds of human remains near Lake Mungo that date to approximately 40,000 years ago.

    References:
    An Aboriginal Australian Genome Reveals Separate Human Dispersals into Asia Morten Rasmussen, Xiaosen Guo, Yong Wang, Kirk E. Lohmueller, Simon Rasmussen, Anders Albrechtsen, ,Line Skott, Stinus Lindgreen, Mait Metspalu, Thibaut Jombart,, Toomas Kivisild, ,Weiwei Zhai,, Anders Eriksson, , Andrea Manica, , Ludovic Orlando,, Francisco M. De La Vega,, Silvana Tridico, , Ene Metspalu, Kasper Nielsen, , María C. Ávila-Arcos,, J. Víctor Moreno-Mayar1,, Craig Muller, Joe Dortch,, M. Thomas P. Gilbert,, Ole Lund,, Agata Wesolowska,, Monika Karmin, Lucy A. Weinert, Bo Wang,, Jun Li, Shuaishuai Tai, , Fei Xia, Tsunehiko Hanihara, George van Driem, , Aashish R. Jha,, François-Xavier Ricaut,, Peter de Knijff, , Andrea B Migliano,, Irene Gallego Romero, , Karsten Kristiansen,, David M. Lambert, , Søren Brunak, Peter Forster, , Bernd Brinkmann,, Olaf Nehlich, Michael Bunce, Michael Richardsm Ramneek Guptam Carlos D. Bustamante, Anders Krogh, Robert A. Foley, Marta M. Lahr, Francois Balloux, Thomas Sicheritz-Pontén, Richard Villems, Rasmus Nielsen Jun Wang, Eske Willerslev


    Science 07 Oct 2011:
    Vol. 334, Issue 6052, pp. 94-98
    DOI: 10.1126/science.1211177

    An Aboriginal Australian Genome Reveals Separate Human Dispersals into Asia

    Native American culture > 500 consecutive generations...

    Genetic evidence suggests at least three waves of migrants arrived from Asia, with the first occurring at least 15 thousand years ago

    Published: 11 July 2012

    Reconstructing Native American population history
    David Reich, Nick Patterso, Andrés Ruiz-Linares
    Nature volume488, pages370–374 (16 August 2012)


    Greenland and Antarctic ice core layering > 100,000 annual layers spanning 100,000 years


    2.7-million-year-old ice opens window on past

    Paul Voosen

    Science 18 Aug 2017:
    Vol. 357, Issue 6352, pp. 630-631
    DOI: 10.1126/science.357.6352.630

    Human bottleneck population size > 8

    Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of 8 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals.

    Reference:
    (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html

    A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than 8 people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

    Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years."

    Reference:

    ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach
     
    #61 Salvador, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Actually not enough by a considerable amount, a quick calculation shows that around 3.5 times more water is needed to fullfil the requirements of noahs flood than actually exists on earth

    It would need 4.5 bn cubic km of water. There exists on earth 1.3 bn km3
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There simply is no scientific evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood-- period. End of story.

    Instead, try "allegory".
     
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  4. Derek500

    Derek500 Wish I could change this to AUD

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    Really? What's a "muck field"?
     
  5. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The best evidence for a major flood is connected to two pieces of recent scientific evidence. The first is a large pool of water, the size of the Arctic Ocean, was found in the earth's mantle just below the crust, in southeast Asia.

    Huge 'Ocean' Discovered Inside Earth

    The second piece of evidence is there is a large scar on the ocean floor of the Atlantic Ocean, where the crust is gone and the mantle is exposed. This suggests that material from the mantle, such as one of these sub mantle pools of water, breeched and eroded the crust under the Atlantic Ocean. The fact that the mantle is still exposed suggests that this happened not too long ago in terms of geological time.

    Mission to Study Earth's Gaping 'Open Wound'

    Consider the scenario of a large mantle reservoir of water, the size of a small ocean, breeching the crust. This mantle water will begin as high pressure steam. It will bubble and condense it push its way to the surface, eroding the crust at the breech. It will heat the local ocean and eventually the steam will rise into the atmosphere. This will cause the earth to become covered in dense clouds. The huge volumes of water and steam rising would also cause huge tidal waves that would move the extra water and pound the coastlines along the Atlantic rim. It would be a planet scale disaster that would take weeks or months to reach steady state and then start to recede.
     
  6. Derek500

    Derek500 Wish I could change this to AUD

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    Really, how so? Do minerals containing -OH in their crystal structures count as water?
     
    #66 Derek500, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry, you are wrong. There was no "pool" of water found. What has been found is water as part of the mantle. Either you misunderstood your source of you used a poor source. Drywall has far more water in it than the mantle does.
     
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  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That all depends on what flood of waters, your evidence points to.

    Is it the flood of Noah's or the first flood which was, way before Adam and Eve were created.
    So what flood of waters, are you in reference to?
     
  10. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    Evidence the Biblical Flood is within the realm of physical possibility becomes moot, when there's overwhelming evidence a flood of biblical proportions actually didn't happen.
     
    #70 Salvador, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    We have been over this before. Why bring up this old refuted idea of yoursyours?
     
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  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That all depends on which flood your referring too.
     
  13. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the Mainstream of modern thought! :)

    Back in the day, when I was struggling with my slowly waning faith, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you, and also with the Eden parable.

    In fact, since modern archaeology has pretty much eliminated any possibility of Exodus being historical, the majority of the OT has to be parable.

    And that's what got me thinking: If the OT is just stories meant to Inspire? What about the NT? Especially the really weird bits, where slaves are to obey, and flaming dragons are to walk the earth?

    More inspirational tales? Yep. And... yep. :)
     
  14. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    ... "to" ...

    The use of "too" above, means "also" how you spelled it, leaving a dangling sentence.
     
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  15. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I read as far as the quotes from Hibben and Darwin...it seems this paper is stuck in the story of science from about 80 plus years ago. Just as with species that evolve, scientists, like members of a species, express a range of beliefs, but the story of science is always the work of the whole body of scientists. The interpretation of Hibben or Darwin about a certain field discovery or a whole range of such discoveries has come a long way since those times and their insights or mis-insights have a much broader perspective now.

    Another common mistake I see in this paper is that a problem in science is taken as a problem with science when it would be more accurate to say it is a problem for science. By this I mean a problem in science, or a problem that one or more scientists see in their current understanding of the evidence against current theory, is not a critique of the value of the scientific method, but, rather, a sign of the strength of the conviction in the method by the community which recognizes and addresses big issues, when they arise, with their own current understanding.

    This is the bravura of science that it can stand up and tear down its own elaborate explanations for reality. This is analogous to the software design, implementation and support process. Software (a hypothesis) is formed/designed to address a particular problem. That design is implemented as code (an experiment). That code is released to the users (experiments are performed and replicated across multiple labs). The users discover bugs and/or recommend enhancements (data is collected and interpreted). Developers make code changes (hypotheses are confirmed, refuted or adjusted) and re-release their code (new experiments are performed). Gradually whole new languages and/or coding technologies are developed (paradigms/technologies) and this two causes new versions and implementations of code projects (theories in science).

    To take the interpretations of 80 plus year old scientists without following through on the story of science since that time is to make an error common to those who might find justification in the same stagnation we find in sacred Christian literature which originally formed out of a creative background of "testing" and "discovery" but has now been spiritually killed by dogma and political correctness of tribal attitudes.

    Open up! And let God teach you personally and you will see that you have nothing to fear from the truth of the ongoing experience of God and humanity.
     
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Whether those massive graveyards were discovered eighty years or yesterday, has no bearing....the evidence is still there; those animals died catastrophically.

    Has science discovered an answer? No!
    Scientists are still clueless....they've made hypotheses, but nothing -- overkill or cosmic -- brings consensus.

    Mainstream scientists can't afford to allow anything metaphysical to be the answer, regardless of how well it fits the evidence...it would destroy their fundamental basis for interpretation of evidence, naturalism.


    Here's something up-to-date for you.
    NOVA | Megabeasts' Sudden Death | The Extinction Debate | PBS
     
  17. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree! So rather than a flood maybe it was a comet. As the scientists study, argue, research, we will see what story unfolds!

    Maybe it was neither. Maybe it was a combination of all of the above and not just one cause which, in my understanding, is often the case.

    Thanks for this!

    Again, open up! The answers are not always given now, they may never come or, who knows, the right person might make the right discoveries and settle the matter. There are no guarantees and really what would life be like if all questions were settled and there was no room for each of us to explore new territory?
     
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  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    At best it tells us that animals died and nothing else. It is not scientific evidence for a flood at all. You are grasping at straws at this point. And approaching this problem backwards. The scientists are still far beyond your level. They have a hypothesis which means that they have evidence. You do not even have that.

    If you want to have a hypothesis it needs to be testable. What reasonable test could possible show your ideas to be wrong? If you can't think of an answer to that question then by definition you do not have any scientific evidence for your beliefs.
     
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  19. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Wrong, right off the bat!
    It shows you didn't read the OP

    "He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him." -Proverbs 18:3, NASB
     
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  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Most do not want to explore any interpretation allowing for a supernatural answer! They discount it out of hand!

    Just like many of these replies I'm getting here....it's obvious they didn't read the entire post!

    You even said so....appreciate the honesty.
    If you had read past Darwin's quote, you would have found newer references.
     
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