Evidences given for a young-earth

[Ouroboros]

Chapter one creates the sun (and moon) on the fourth day, after the Earth and after "the waters". How can you have a "day" with no sun?

There is no way this can make any sense if taken literally. The whole thing has to be seen allegorically.

And how can there be day and then night at all on a spherical planet where there's always a day and always a night, somewhere. The story is written as someone who doesn't know how big the world is or our place in the universe.

 

[exchemist]

And how can there be day and then night at all on a spherical planet where there's always a day and always a night, somewhere. The story is written as someone who doesn't know how big the world is or our place in the universe.

True. It's clearly an allegorical account by ancient people, describing God as creator of the cosmos, the Earth and everything on it from macro to micro, but pointless to look for any detailed correspondence with science.

 

[Astrophile]

When NASA went to Titan with their Huygens probe
they wanted to see a "precursor earth" and expected
to find a dark, cold, sterile, ocean world. As it was
the oceans were merely seas and lakes.
But it's what the early earth was like. Genesis 1
gives us this image of an earth already formed, and
in the "heavens" - BEFORE THE "DAYS" BEGAN.
It was dark, sterile, oceanic and without any "form"
(landmarks of any sort.)

Titan is certainly cold; its surface temperature is about 94 K (-179.2°C). Since Saturn is 9.5 times as far from the Sun as the Earth is, the intensity of sunlight on Titan would be only about 1/90th of the intensity of the sunlight on Earth, even if the atmosphere was clear. The thick hydrocarbon haze layers in Titan's atmosphere reduce the sunlight even more. Titan's surface consists of ice, and the lakes are made of liquid hydrocarbons (mostly methane and ethane), not water.

The early Earth was not much like Titan. From about 4 billion years ago it was warm enough to have liquid water on its surface; even under thick clouds the daylight was much brighter; and there was very little, if any, methane in the atmosphere. By the way, if the early Earth was entirely covered by thick clouds, their presence nullifies the argument that solar UV radiation would prevent abiogenesis.

 

[PruePhillip]

Titan is certainly cold; its surface temperature is about 94 K (-179.2°C). Since Saturn is 9.5 times as far from the Sun as the Earth is, the intensity of sunlight on Titan would be only about 1/90th of the intensity of the sunlight on Earth, even if the atmosphere was clear. The thick hydrocarbon haze layers in Titan's atmosphere reduce the sunlight even more. Titan's surface consists of ice, and the lakes are made of liquid hydrocarbons (mostly methane and ethane), not water.

The early Earth was not much like Titan. From about 4 billion years ago it was warm enough to have liquid water on its surface; even under thick clouds the daylight was much brighter; and there was very little, if any, methane in the atmosphere. By the way, if the early Earth was entirely covered by thick clouds, their presence nullifies the argument that solar UV radiation would prevent abiogenesis.

Titan is an analogue. The chemistry is entirely different but the processes are
the same. Before the Voyager and Pioneer missions (one of which I personally
attended and I knew one of the scientists) this idea of analogues didn't exist.
But a methane/ethane world can have oceans, rain, erosion, rivers, lakes,
seas and icebergs just like earth.
When the sun expands into a red giant Titan will warm and could become an
organic world - repeating the steps earth took.

 

[gnostic]

BTW the first creation account, with the sequence of the
earth and heaven, is fully consistent with science.

No it isn’t.

In the fifth day, it stated that BOTH marine life and birds were created at the same time. Therefore birds were created before land animals.

20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.” 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.

That’s wrong.

Fossil evidence showed that primitive reptiles and mammals (as well as dinosaurs) existed tens of millions of years before the appearance of the earliest birds.

While birds are considered to have “evolved” from saurischian dinosaurs, the first known “true birds” exist around 100 million years ago, during the middle of the Cretaceous period.

Reptiles have been around as early as 320 million years ago, in Carboniferous period. The earliest mammals have been around 235 million years ago in the Triassic period; the mammals have evolved from the earlier mammal-like reptiles known as the therapsids, that have existed since 265 million years ago.

The earlier primitive mammals couldn’t thrive because first the archosaurs dominated the lands during the early Triassic period, then the dinosaurs. It was only after the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction, that most of the dinosaurs became extinct that the mammals became the most dominant land animals.

My points are that land animals were around lot longer than the birds. And birds didn’t exist in the beginning with fishes and other marine life.

So really Genesis got it all wrong the order wrong between birds and land animals. And you got it wrong when you have claimed Genesis 1 is consistent with science.

 

[PruePhillip]

No it isn’t.

In the fifth day, it stated that BOTH marine life and birds were created at the same time. Therefore birds were created before land animals.

It's how Genesis words it. The earth brought forth life (and then a list of land animals)
and the seas brought forth life (and a list of ocean animals)

The bird is interesting - yes, birds DID come out of the sea
1 - vertebrates
2 - fish
3 - lobe fin fishes
4 - amphibians
5 - reptiles
6 - dinosaurs (which is what birds are)

 

[exchemist]

Titan is an analogue. The chemistry is entirely different but the processes are
the same. Before the Voyager and Pioneer missions (one of which I personally
attended and I knew one of the scientists) this idea of analogues didn't exist.
But a methane/ethane world can have oceans, rain, erosion, rivers, lakes,
seas and icebergs just like earth.
When the sun expands into a red giant Titan will warm and could become an
organic world - repeating the steps earth took.

The methane will boil off. At Earth atmospheric pressure this is at -161C, and the boiling point will be lower at lower pressures. So any methane-based life has to have chemical reactions that proceed at a sufficient rate for its metabolism at a lower temperature than this. And if Titan warms when the Sun becomes a red giant, this life would die.

 

[PruePhillip]

The methane will boil off. At Earth atmospheric pressure this is at -161C, and the boiling point will be lower at lower pressures. So any methane-based life has to have chemical reactions that proceed at a sufficient rate for its metabolism at a lower temperature than this. And if Titan warms when the Sun becomes a red giant, this life would die.

Interesting point, thanks for that.
But publications do say that Titan could warm and support
life - not sure what chemical basis this would be.

 

[exchemist]

Interesting point, thanks for that.
But publications do say that Titan could warm and support
life - not sure what chemical basis this would be.

Interesting. Where have you read that?

 

[tas8831]

They appear to be good arguments.

Not if you understand the science behind them.
Which is why you like them, no doubt.

 

[PruePhillip]

Interesting. Where have you read that?

Can't remember now. Not much has been written since the Cassini days.
Of interest, today I was reading Science Illustrated (Australia) and there
was the heading "Life originated on dry land" p28. May 2019.
All to do with the drying and wetting of shallow pools and the concentration
of bio-chemicals in pure water. I used to think Genesis got this order wrong
when it said life sprang up on land first.

 

[exchemist]

Can't remember now. Not much has been written since the Cassini days.
Of interest, today I was reading Science Illustrated (Australia) and there
was the heading "Life originated on dry land" p28. May 2019.
All to do with the drying and wetting of shallow pools and the concentration
of bio-chemicals in pure water. I used to think Genesis got this order wrong
when it said life sprang up on land first.

No, you said you had read that "Titan could warm and support life". Where did you read that?

 

[PruePhillip]

No, you said you had read that "Titan could warm and support life". Where did you read that?

Don't know. It was 15-20 years ago.
Article(s) state that future expansion of the sun could lead to
a warm and biotic Titan.

.... here

"In a recent speech delivered at the Library of Congress, Carrie Anderson, the Associate
Chief at NASA's Goddard Planetary System Laboratory, explained why Titan, with some
help from the sun, is even better suited for the emergence of life than the Earth was. "It's
an organic soup just waiting to happen," she explains."

After The Sun Incinerates Earth, Life Could Evolve On Titan

 

[exchemist]

Don't know. It was 15-20 years ago.
Article(s) state that future expansion of the sun could lead to
a warm and biotic Titan.

.... here

"In a recent speech delivered at the Library of Congress, Carrie Anderson, the Associate
Chief at NASA's Goddard Planetary System Laboratory, explained why Titan, with some
help from the sun, is even better suited for the emergence of life than the Earth was. "It's
an organic soup just waiting to happen," she explains."

After The Sun Incinerates Earth, Life Could Evolve On Titan

Aha, now that is interesting. Thanks.

But I see they are talking about water-based life with similar biochemistry to ours on Earth, rather than anything involving methane, their point being the proliferation of simple carbon and nitrogen chemistry that could occur, due to what is there in "frozen" form today.

 

[gnostic]

When the sun expands into a red giant Titan will warm and could become an
organic world - repeating the steps earth took.

Which is meaningless to us, since the Sun won’t become a red giant star for another 4 to 5 billion years from now.

The reason why I say “meaningless” is because “We” as human species - meaning the Homo sapiens - have only been around for 200-250,000 years. We don’t know if the humans will still exist (as a living species) in 1 million years time, let alone for a billion years.

So whether Titan be warm enough to support life, if and when the sun becomes a red giant, is just speculation.

Note that I have only mentioned the “Homo sapiens” only, is because all other older species are already extinct, so it is pointless to include extinct species in space travel of a very distant future.

 

[PruePhillip]

Which is meaningless to us, since the Sun won’t become a red giant star for another 4 to 5 billion years from now.

The reason why I say “meaningless” is because “We” as human species - meaning the Homo sapiens - have only been around for 200-250,000 years. We don’t know if the humans will still exist (as a living species) in 1 million years time, let alone for a billion years.

So whether Titan be warm enough to support life, if and when the sun becomes a red giant, is just speculation.

Note that I have only mentioned the “Homo sapiens” only, is because all other older species are already extinct, so it is pointless to include extinct species in space travel of a very distant future.

Whether we be here or not (and probably not) the fact remains
that one day the sun will swell and Titan will be a tad warmer,
for a while.
The universe is not interested in our presence.

Just point out Genesis 1:2 vision of a dark, sterile and oceanic
earth is similar to Titan..

 

[PruePhillip]

Aha, now that is interesting. Thanks.

But I see they are talking about water-based life with similar biochemistry to ours on Earth, rather than anything involving methane, their point being the proliferation of simple carbon and nitrogen chemistry that could occur, due to what is there in "frozen" form today.

Yes, I haven't read this article in years either. The presupposes that only
water will support life. I am confident that the universe will have found
other ways to create life - maybe even plasma.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, I haven't read this article in years either. The presupposes that only
water will support life. I am confident that the universe will have found
other ways to create life - maybe even plasma.

Aha. I also like to imagine there could be life using at least different chemistries, including different solvents.

The liquid methane one though has to be very cold. And at that temperature chemical reactions are very slow indeed. I would prefer something like liquid ammonia, which has a boiling point at Earth atmospheric pressure of -33C, so a lot warmer than -160C, and which like water is polar and capable of hydrogen bonding. You also get sexy things like the solvated electron in liquid ammonia - it goes blue! But I admit I have never put much energy into dreaming up a whole alternative biochemistry with it.

 

[Astrophile]

Just point out Genesis 1:2 vision of a dark, sterile and oceanic
earth is similar to Titan..

As I have already explained, the seas and lakes of Titan consist of liquid methane and ethane, not water (unlike the Earth's oceans).

Also Titan's surface is probably not entirely dark. It has been estimated that the solar illumination at the surface may be about 1/1000 of daylight on Earth, or about 400 times Full Moon-light on Earth. Curiously, it appears that twilight on Titan may be much brighter than daylight - https://www.space.com/36609-twilight-outshines-daylight-Saturn-moon-Titan.html - owing to the light scattering properties of Titan's haze layer. Also, during 2009 there were enough breaks in the northern polar cloud for Cassini to obtain direct images of the lakes and seas near to the north pole - NASA - The Many Moods of Titan . In addition, the hemisphere that faces Saturn must receive some light from 'Saturn-shine', analogous to Earth-shine on the Moon.

 

[Kilk1]

I suggest you start here: An Index to Creationist Claims

Specifically:

CC371: Tyrannosaurus blood

CC371.1: Tyrannosaurus tissues from bone

CE311: Faint young sun

CD011.6: C14 date of old oil

CD221.1: Amount of dissolved sodium in oceans

Then if you need further detail, you should read through the material cited in each of those responses.

I finally got around to clicking the link about the C14 date of old oil, and it turns out to be short, lol! Anyway, about the contamination argument, the AiG article says that "for thirty years AMS radiocarbon laboratories have subjected all samples, before they carbon-14 date them, to repeated brutal treatments with strong acids and bleaches to rid them of all contamination. And when the instruments are tested with blank samples, they yield zero radiocarbon, so there can’t be any contamination or instrument problems."

Since the instruments didn't have radiocarbon but the samples did after all the "brutal treatments," would this rule out contamination?