1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence that Jesus was the Messiah

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jewscout, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    HelpMe, I think your post is beside the point. We all agree that Joseph couldn't have been Jesus' father, even if he hadn't been related to Jeconiah, on account of because then he wouldn't be able to be the son of god. Your point is moot.

    Bottom line? Jesus is not descended from David, at least not through Soloman anyhow. This being necessary criteria, it looks as though Jesus is not the Jewish Moshiach.
     
  2. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    why?

    being the adopted son he would have right to the throne if it was required to come through solomon, but not being of joseph's blood he would not of inherited the curse on his ancestor.
     
  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    so he's not the jewish moshiach?
     
  4. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Only a descendant of the house of David through Solomon patrelinealy (sp) can be the Moshiach (not to mention several other criteria).
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Adopted sons were not heirs to the throne if biological sons existed. Also, the idea of adoption implies that that son becomes part of the family in body and spirit. If Jesus were adopted, he still would have 'inherited' the curse. Curses are not, after all, restricted by biological means.
     
  6. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    not to mention?why not?have you any geneology tracing back without the accursed family member?is yeshua's kingdom not set up eternally as far as our eyes can see?what end to christianty do you foresee?

    because you say so cerid?you can't stand on both sides of the fence.he didn't have to be the first to the throne amongst his bretheren(sp) to have a right to the throne.this is like saying a younger prince henry in england is no prince at all.

    how much credibility do you think i should warrant you to debate christianity when your religion is lettuce(or lying)?not that i am the warranter of credibility, but why should I take you serious if your intentions are obviously severe skepticism at best?
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    HelpMe, those are all questions you should be able to answer on your own. They are irrelevent, and not my problem.
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    i, being christian and aware of these questions, apparently already have.tx
     
  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    The geneology of the NT is inconsistant at best. Plus Jesus did not fulfill the other criteria for being a Jewish Messiah.

    Now that doesn't mean he couldn't have been a messenger from G-d to the Gentiles but he failed to fulfill the work of the Moshiach while he was here.
     
  10. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    what criteria did he inarguably fail to meet, cite?
     
  11. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    1. Gather in the exiled jews:
    "And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the Earth." Isaiah 11:12

    2. Rebuild the Temple which was destroyed not long after the time in which Jesus lived:
    "...and i will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..." (Ezekiel 37:26-27)

    3. The Moshiach will rule during a time when all Jews will obey G-d's commandments:
    "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

    These just to name a few...did Jesus accomplish any of these things in his lifetime? Are they going on right now??
    Half of the worlds Jewish population still don't live in Israel...for that matter when, since the death of Jesus have the Jews lived in any one place at one time?
    The temple mount is occupied by a mosque. A MOSQUE!!
    And when have all the jews obeyed every single commandment? I mean there are 613 of them! I know Jews that don't keep kosher or observe Shabbat.

    I don't deny Jesus's influence and i think that he is the spiritual way to the One G-d for Gentiles but he didn't accomplish the goals of the Moshiach when he was here and that's the point. If he returns and is the Moshiach we will all know. Really we can't know who the Moshiach is until after the fact, he will simply do it because that is what he will be compelled to do.
     
  12. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    494
    Ratings:
    +67
    Well said. The one issue I see though is that no one will ever be able to follow all 613 commandments while there is no temple. So I suppose the temple would have to exist before the messiah can come, so that Jews can follow all mitzvot?

    I don't have a problem with Jesus, either, but he just doesn't "fulfill the scripture," I don't think.
     
  13. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    the collective noun for a group of ferrets is "a business".






    i'll look into those jewscout, for now, take care.
     
  14. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    What you talkin' 'bout willis?
     
  15. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    the collective noun for a group of crows is "a murder".

    Check out the Messianic Believer's First Response Handbook. You can download a free pdf copy at http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org
    It is not very well organized (IMO), but overall or in general does a decent job of addressing the arguments used by "countermissionaries" to dispute the Messiahship of Yeshua and the validity of the apostolic scriptures.

    Here are some excerpts:

    Accusation
    All Israel must be in the land of Israel when Messiah comes, as it says in Ezekiel 37:25. Since all Israel is not back in the land, but still in exile, Messiah hasn’t come.

    Truth
    The final return has not occurred and that is because Messiah has not returned to reign, but has appeared first to suffer. Messiah, by coming the first time, has begun the process of the return by putting it into the hearts of His people in exile to return. At present He is revealing Himself to Jews, and revealing Israelite heritage to non-Jewish Ephraimites from the 10 tribes. He is very much preparing both houses for their return. Ultimately this scripture speaks of when the return is complete and the exile is over, which has not happened yet. But that does not give one the allowance to dismiss the Suffering Servant scriptures, along with Messiah Yahshua’s first mission to the earth.

    Accusation
    Ezekiel 37:26 speaks of a rebuilt Temple in Messianic Times and the arrival of Messiah. The Temple reference always refers to a physical Temple never a spiritual Temple. Therefore since we do not
    see a Temple rebuilt, we can be sure that Messiah has not yet arrived.

    Truth
    This is a complete misstatement of the facts. According to Zechariah 6:12-14 YHWH in the person of “Messiah the Branch” or the “Tzemach” will rebuilt the Temple of YHWH and bring peace between both houses of Israel. The man whose name is “The Branch” began that job 2,000 years ago according to Ephesians 2:20-22, where Yahshua has been building YHWH’s house. In Hebraic thought, every action in the Spirit has a corresponding action in the physical. As such, the fact that Yahshua has
    been doing the building of the spiritual Temple, it is guaranteed He will at His return rebuild or rededicate the Moriah Temple. In Greco-Roman thought, the view of any scriptural topic is in an “either or” mode,
    meaning either the physical realm or the Spiritual realm. The anti-missionaries, who claim to be representing the “real Jews” or Hebrews, cannot seem to shake their tendency to go the Greco-Roman
    route. As usual the anti-Messiah spirit has fully ignored the realm of the esoteric. Or they love snippets of the esoteric, except of course when speaking of Yahshua.

    Rav Yihudah said, “Rav said that the set-apart one, blessed be He, will in the future raise for them [for Israel] another David, for it is said-Jer.30: 9. It does not say ‘raised up’ but will raise up. Rav Papa said to Abbaye,’but it is written-Ezek.37: 25?’He answered,” They will be like Caesar and Vice-Caesar.””(B.Sanh.98b)

    Also, tabernacle means dwelling place. Since the Ruach of YHWH is YHWH, in a very real sense the tabernacle is among men right now. Of course, it is "here now and not yet" and has not yet reached its fullness until the New Covenant is fully in place.

    what is a group of crows called besides flock?
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    I think the biggest issue we have is one of "The Physical vs The Spiritual"...

    JS, in your three demands, I can show how they were met easily and through the scripture. I would like to ask though... what is the purpose of the Jewish Nation?

    They were God's "Holy People"... called out from the rest of the world. But God is not a bigot. He loves the ENTIRE world; Jews and Gentiles alike. But God had to demonstrate his powers PHYSICALLY so that we might see them SPIRITUALLY. Some would say (and rightly so) that the penultimate reason for the "chosen race" was to produce the messiah. If Jesus then was the messiah, then the need for racial purity has ended.

    So what makes a jew? Purely DNA? Not according to that crazy Rabbi Saul:
    Romans 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

    You see, before the messiah, salvation was "corporate". An entire nation based on DNA. But now the nation's identity is not based on DNA but on their heart. And Jesus has gathered the remanant to himself. Rather effectively, I would add.

    Point 2 The temple...
    John 2:18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. 23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

    Point 3 "The Rule"

    II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    So now that I have answered all three issues, what's left? Are you ready to convert yet? :D
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    As i recall no real return began until the late 19th century that's how many centuries later? And still the 6 million or so Jews in America have yet to leave either and many, especially in Conservative and Reform congregations don't want to go to Israel.
    The Suffering Servant scripture in the Tanach I can see how one could interpret that as meaning Jesus but what about the thousands of other Jewish martyrs who died before, during, and after the crucifixtion of Jesus. R. Akiva springs to mind almost immidiately.

    One of the most important events in the Messianic Era will be the rebuilding of the Holy Temple (Beit HaMikdash). According to Maimonides, perhaps on of the of the greatest jewish thinkers in history, it is the act of building the Temple which will establish the identity of the Messiah beyond any shadow of a doubt. There are, however, many things involving the Temple which can only be ascertained prophetically, such as, for example, the precise location of the Altar. When Ezra rebuilt the Temple after the Babylonian exile, the place of the Altar had to be revealed prophetically, and the same will apparently be true when the Temple is rebuilt in the Messianic Ages.
    Did Jesus leave coordinates for the Alter? Where is/was Elijah to tell us?

    This I have heard of but not in the way in which you describe it. The Tanach has two possible ways in which the Messiah will come and, likewise, two ways in which the Third Temple will return. Either it will be humbly made by man or it will desend from heaven, complete and intact, but placed there by HaShem.
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    First i'll address your question/comment:
    First off you mean "Chosen People" and it's not because the Hebrews were better than any other nation on earth or more righteous. Far from it. The tradition goes that G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the world, but they rejected it. He came to the Hebrew people last and offered them the Torah and they accepted it. They took what is known as the "Yoke of Heaven" upon themselves, because to gain that closeness to G-d the Jews have to work even harder with more restrictions.
    Does this mean that non-jews can not gain a place in the "World to Come"? Of course not! It is said the righteous of all nations will have a place.
    In the First Temple Solomon asks G-d to heed the prayers of the non-jewish people (1 Kings 8:41-43). He also sacraficed 70 bulls during Sukkot for each of the 70 Gentile nations.
    How you think that the only reason for all this was to create the messiah is ridiculous. The Hebrews were the last to be asked, it's like being the kid in Gym class picked last on the team.

    The rest of your post proves nothing but that the people who set down the cannon of the early church knew what things they had to prove to get the Jews on board with this new movement called Christianity.

    See here's what i don't get...I ALREADY BELIEVE IN THE ONE G-D!
    No i'm am not, and will not, convert to Christianity. I've been down that road already it's not my bag.
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Now before people go all crazy saying i'm downing christianity let me make one thing clear...
    I'm talking about the Jewish Moshiac.

    I don't deny Jesus's influence and i think that he is the spiritual way to the One G-d for Gentiles but he didn't accomplish the goals of the Moshiach when he was here and that's the point. If he returns and is the Moshiach we will all know. Really we can't know who the Moshiach is until after the fact, he will simply do it because that is what he will be compelled to do.
    I'm not trying to bash Christianity, i have on this forum shown for several reasons why it is not the way for me, but it can be, i believe, the way for others.
     
  20. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    I realize this comment was probably just in jest, but I want to make clear that we do not allow active converison here. The point of your arguments should be to defend your faith and beliefs, not to sway others to your side. Just a reminder.
     
Loading...