Evidence that Jesus was the Messiah

[Tumah]

To convince any one to come to the Temple Mount to offer sacrifices would be the last thing I would do. If the sacrifices are to return, I prefer that the Temple be not rebuilt. I do wish the Temple to be rebuilt but not for sacrifices but perhaps to be the mother Bet Kinesset of all Batei Kinesset throughout the world. The mother Yeshiva of all Yeshivot throughout the world.

It might be the last thing you would do, but Zech. 14:16 says its what everybody will be doing. You're personal preference notwithstanding.

If you read Jeremiah 7:22, the Lord never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel.

Spoken like a True Christian.

So, probably He left the decision with Moses who organized a system of ritual laws. Hence the command to sacrifice could not be added to the Decalogue. It had become therefore, a commandment of man, not of God.

All the times that it says "And G-d said to Moses saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel..." before a sacrifice is commanded, is a lie.
So you don't believe in the Oral Torah. You don't believe in the Written Torah. Unless it happens to conform with what you already believe. That's cool. So you're just here to troll people. Noted.

 

[Tumah]

If I turn off the light in a dark room, it goes without saying that I caused darkness to exist. Why? Because darkness is the opposite of light. That's how God is said to have created darkness by removing light. The same with evil when good is removed from the community. If two things cannot exist in the same place at the same time, we have no other option but to go metaphorical when saying that God
created this or that.

Except it doesn't say "I caused darkness". It says "I created darkness". It says, "I created evil". And then it ends with "I made all of this". Not "I caused all of this". Your argument is based on your own preconceived notions of what it should say, not what it actually says.

It doesn't say that G-d created darkness by removing light. Light was created after darkness. Darkness was created first. Then light.

 

[rosends]

God does not create evil, unless based on the fact that He created man and man created evil. Read Ecclesiastes 7:29. God created man plain, good and perfect as man but man fell into many evil reasonings .

So to summarize, the text of 45:7 says God makes evil. You say he didn't. I'll stick with the text, not some interpretation which contradicts it.

 

[rosends]

If you read Jeremiah 7:22, the Lord never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. So, probably He left the decision with Moses who organized a system of ritual laws. Hence the command to sacrifice could not be added to the Decalogue. It had become therefore, a commandment of man, not of God.

You realize that 7:22 speaks specifically of the day they left Egypt, right? " nor did I command them on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning a burnt offering or a sacrifice" and is a reference to Ex 19:5. Of course, in Ex. 12:3, God had already commanded a sacrifice, and a huge chunk of the book of Leviticus is a series of commandments about required sacrifices. Now, true, the first few sets of sacrifices seem more like human, voluntary actions which are then given regulations, but Lev 4:3 makes it clear that God is requiring sacrifice as part of the religion of Israel. Lev. 7 is another set of required sacrifices. Lev 12:6 gives another required sacrifice as part of the process of living as one of the children of Israel. 15:29 does it again. 16:33 makes it pretty clear that there is an expectation that there will be a sacrifice on the altar every year as part of the religion. Chapter 23 talks about the sacrifices of appointed times each year.

Numbers 15:14 talks about fire offerings as eternal decrees throughout the generations. 28 and 29 go through all the sacrifices on the yearly festivals. There's more, but I have to get to work.

Is all of this just a lie invented by Moses? I happen not to think so, and you do.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So to summarize, the text of 45:7 says God makes evil. You say he didn't. I'll stick with the text, not some interpretation which contradicts it.

Tell me something Rosends. If I get into a dark room and turn on the light, does it mean I caused darkness to exist?
No. Do you know why? Because darkness is the opposite of light; an accident of matter aka the protons that cause light energy. So, did God create darkness? No, He created light. When light is removed, darkness results. Good & evil follows the same pattern. Technically, evil does not exist as it is only the absence of light. So, God created evil from the same point of view that He had created good. Had He not created good, evil would not exist.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Except it doesn't say "I caused darkness". It says "I created darkness". It says, "I created evil". And then it ends with "I made all of this". Not "I caused all of this". Your argument is based on your own preconceived notions of what it should say, not what it actually says.

It doesn't say that G-d created darkness by removing light. Light was created after darkness. Darkness was created first. Then light.

Well, as I said, sometimes we have no other option but to go metaphorical with the Biblical interpretation in order not to contradict the laws of nature also created by HaShem. For instance, "Light"; how to go metaphorical with light and remain true with God's Word? Thus: When the Lord said, "Let there be light", He meant the first prophecy ever about the rising of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Why then "Let there be Light?" Because the world was spiritually in darkness. Hence the decision to decree the Flood. When the Flood was over, HaShem promised Noah never to allow a catastrophe of that size to hit Mankind again as long as the natural laws worked properly. (Genesis 8:21,22) Jeremiah read that text and concluded that as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws would work properly. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Another evidence that light could metaphorically be interpreted as Israel were he Essenes who defined Israel as the children of light versus the Gentiles as the children of darkness. And if you go further and check with Isaiah, he said that Israel had been assigned as light for the nations. (Isaiah 42:6)

 

[rosends]

Tell me something Rosends. If I get into a dark room and turn on the light, does it mean I caused darkness to exist?
No. Do you know why? Because darkness is the opposite of light; an accident of matter aka the protons that cause light energy. So, did God create darkness? No, He created light. When light is removed, darkness results. Good & evil follows the same pattern. Technically, evil does not exist as it is only the absence of light. So, God created evil from the same point of view that He had created good. Had He not created good, evil would not exist.

Light and dark are states of being. All states of being were created by God. Saying that anything is outside of God's creative action doesn't make sense. if you want to split hairs and say that somethings are caused by God through agents (man, angel, cows) then that's just so much semantic argument. The text says explicitly that God created good and evil. In fact, the same verse says that God created darkness (yotzer ohr uvoreh choshech). Pesachim discusses that darkness was a thing in the same way that light was at creation -- a specific effect of divine decree given dominion over a time period.

You can distinguish between types of darkness if you would like (as the Netziv does) but that doesn't eliminate that one type was created; it just balances it with another type. The Netziv does not do that with "evil." Your position is not in line with Judaism. It's just that simple.

 

[Tumah]

Well, as I said, sometimes we have no other option but to go metaphorical with the Biblical interpretation in order not to contradict the laws of nature also created by HaShem. For instance, "Light"; how to go metaphorical with light and remain true with God's Word? Thus: When the Lord said, "Let there be light", He meant the first prophecy ever about the rising of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Why then "Let there be Light?" Because the world was spiritually in darkness. Hence the decision to decree the Flood. When the Flood was over, HaShem promised Noah never to allow a catastrophe of that size to hit Mankind again as long as the natural laws worked properly. (Genesis 8:21,22) Jeremiah read that text and concluded that as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws would work properly. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Another evidence that light could metaphorically be interpreted as Israel were he Essenes who defined Israel as the children of light versus the Gentiles as the children of darkness. And if you go further and check with Isaiah, he said that Israel had been assigned as light for the nations. (Isaiah 42:6)

This is basically your own religion at this point.

 

[Akivah]

If two things cannot exist in the same place at the same time, we have no other option but to go metaphorical when saying that God created this or that.

It's not metaphorical, but literal. G-d explicitly says that He created good and evil.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It's not metaphorical, but literal. G-d explicitly says that He created good and evil.

You have all the right in the world to think as you please. I am just sharing with you the way I think.

 

[Ben Avraham]

This is basically your own religion at this point.

Did I say above that this is Judaism? I don't think so. I don't have a religion. All religions are based on faith and, faith does not coexist with knowledge. I prefer knowledge. Have you ever read the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews?
If you haven't, let me know and I'll print it here for you. If you read it, you will understand what I mean.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Light and dark are states of being. All states of being were created by God. Saying that anything is outside of God's creative action doesn't make sense. if you want to split hairs and say that somethings are caused by God through agents (man, angel, cows) then that's just so much semantic argument. The text says explicitly that God created good and evil. In fact, the same verse says that God created darkness (yotzer ohr uvoreh choshech). Pesachim discusses that darkness was a thing in the same way that light was at creation -- a specific effect of divine decree given dominion over a time period.

You can distinguish between types of darkness if you would like (as the Netziv does) but that doesn't eliminate that one type was created; it just balances it with another type. The Netziv does not do that with "evil." Your position is not in line with Judaism. It's just that simple.

Have you read "The Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides? He said that evil does not exist. Obviously, he
was thinking about darkness. If evil is the absence of good, darkness is the absence of light.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So to summarize, the text of 45:7 says God makes evil. You say he didn't. I'll stick with the text, not some interpretation which contradicts it.

You have all the right in the world to stick to whatever text you please. I'll stick to Logic. I find the most childish thing ever to say that God created darkness when light is turned off. But hey! Whenever the sun of faith rises, the sun of knowledge sets.

 

[Tumah]

Did I say above that this is Judaism? I don't think so. I don't have a religion. All religions are based on faith and, faith does not coexist with knowledge. I prefer knowledge. Have you ever read the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews?
If you haven't, let me know and I'll print it here for you. If you read it, you will understand what I mean.

Great, so we've finally come to an understanding. Now that you agree you have no religion, why not change your religion label to reflect that?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Great, so we've finally come to an understanding. Now that you agree you have no religion, why not change your religion label to reflect that?

Because I can't digest food already chewed by another.

 

[rosends]

Have you read "The Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides? He said that evil does not exist. Obviously, he
was thinking about darkness. If evil is the absence of good, darkness is the absence of light.

Actually, that only accounts for 1 of the 3 types of evil that he posits. And he doesn't say that that type doesn't exist, only that the creation of it is of a different nature from the creation of light/good.

 

[Tumah]

Because I can't digest food already chewed by another.

Well, Judaism has already been chewed by others. So how about creating a unique name like "Avrahamish" or something. Something that reflects the fact that we have nothing to do with you.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well, Judaism has already been chewed by others. So how about creating a unique name like "Avrahamish" or something. Something that reflects the fact that we have nothing to do with you.

Listen Tumah, don't you have any thing serious that we could talk and have something to learn from each other?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Actually, that only accounts for 1 of the 3 types of evil that he posits. And he doesn't say that that type doesn't exist, only that the creation of it is of a different nature from the creation of light/good.

Go back and read a little more of that book of his.

 

[Tumah]

Listen Tumah, don't you have any thing serious that we could talk and have something to learn from each other?

I'm trying to teach you how to be truthful. And trying to learn from you how not to be deceptive. So there it is.

I'm also trying to ensure that people don't confuse your Avrahamish belief with Judaism. For some reason, you have taken the deceptive route and are trying to trick people into thinking that you and I share a similar religion. I don't have a problem with you believing what you want. But I do have a problem with someone misrepresenting my religion.