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Evidence that God does not exist

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ApostateAbe, Dec 18, 2005.

  1. ApostateAbe

    ApostateAbe Member

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    God does not exist.

    I don't have all the knowledge in the universe, so how could I know? Nothing is absolutely certain outside the realm of logic and mathematics, and nothing can ever be "proven" in the natural world. Our brains could be fed sensory illusions in a sadistic laboratory, and we would never be able to prove otherwise. However, we make conclusions about the universe based on high probabilites ranging from almost 0% to almost 100% (never exactly 0% or exactly 100%). We know with very reasonable certainty that the Sun is a large fiery ball of gas, not an illusion, because of the observations made of it. We can conclude with reasonable certainty that Santa's eight flying reindeer as described in popular myth do not exist, because of our understanding of society's myth and our observations of the physical world. Likewise, I can know with very reasonable certainty that God does not exist.

    Let me start with a definition of God. God is a very powerful spiritual supernatural entity who is the obejct of worship in monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam. I would say God is magic. You may not like the word "magic" to describe God since it has the connotations of illusionist art and fantasy fiction, but "magic" without the connotations is defined as, "Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). Besides God, here are some other things that are thought to be supernatural (magic):

    ESP
    Psychics
    Palmreading
    Reincarnation
    Ghosts
    Curses
    Charms
    Santa Claus
    Fairies
    Sorcery
    Karma
    Chi
    Spirits

    People believe in supernaturalism for various reasons, but largely because of religion. If you are a Christian, then you probably believe in God because it is a part of the religion. You might say that you are not part of a religion, but "religion" is defined as, "a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). If you go to a church, worship God at this church, adhere to a moral system associated with this church, listen to some guy teach about the way God is, and you believe it, then you are part of a religion.

    People believe the doctrines of religions because the doctrines promise to fulfill our fantasies. Most of us, largely out of our nature, desire these things that the monotheistic religions promise:

    1) Eternal life of happiness
    2) Transcendent importance to our lives
    3) A powerful trustworthy father figure
    4) A perfect guide to living
    5) Universal morality and enforced justice
    6) Simple answers to tough important questions

    And people generally believe what they want to be true. People believe in God NOT because it is a reasonable thing to believe, with some exceptions.

    Though supernatural explanations to natural phenomena were always a bad idea generally, there was a time when reasonable people explained things with God because they had no available alternatives. But that time is largely gone. The naturalistic philosophy of science has gone so far in making sense of the universe that there is very little any need for extraordinary explanations such as God. To express this idea, I wrote a poem published here.

    Christians and Muslims have told me that they know God exists because there is no other explanation for the grandeur of the laws of physics and the apparent design of life. I could go into detail about how nature does not require "intelligent design," but for the sake of saving time, I'll resort to an argument from authority. Physicists and biologists are far more likely than the rest of the population to disbelieve in the existence of God (source). Explaining nature with God is called, "the God-of-the-gaps argument," because the explanation of God fills in the gaps in our knowledge.

    Many people believe in God because of some sort of spiritual experience. In fact, that is a part of many reasons why people believe in supernaturalism. Along with the stories of Christians, I heard a story from a new-ager who said that he had an out-of-body experience. He floated out of his body, flew out of his house, and explored the landscape. I hear those stories, and most of them seem to be emotional, wishful, delusional, etc. Normally, such stories are the experiences of individuals, and they can't be recorded, tested, or otherwise verified. People will explain their odd experiences with supernaturalism because they want it to be genuine, and they don't realize that their brains are prone to illusions and delusions.

    A lot of Christians tell me that they know God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is a trustworthy book. That is part true. I will grant that it has a lot of good history. But it also has what reasonable people can agree to be bad history, bad science, bad morals, bad logic, and contradictions. We should not trust it any more than any other religious holy book.

    Let me give you an example. Jesus prophecied very explicitly that he would make his second coming in the lifetime of his listeners, and that time would be the end of the world.
    "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew 16:28

    "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27

    "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34

    "Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64

    "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1

    "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30

    "And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62

    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32

    "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22
    This would be a failed prophecy, and so Christian apologists are forced to explain it. Faults in the Bible can be explained in a large number of ways, the same you can explain faults with the Koran or the Star Trek series. Many Christians, of course, say that you shouldn't take the Bible literally, and others (in the conservative part of the religion) say that "generation" actually means "race," and that the coming of the kingdom of God actually refers to the resurrection. A different explanation was given to the early Christians by their leaders shortly after the generation of Jesus had passed, as seen in 2 Peter 3:3-8.
    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.​
    Time had to take on a meaningless definition in order for Jesus' prophecy to no longer appear false.

    I am not saying that troubles like that in the Bible are good evidence that God does not exist. It is just that the Bible is not proper evidence for God. We are left with no evidence for God's existence and pretty good evidence against it.

    Atheism has almost nothing to offer anyone. I don't have any grandiose promise to make if you abandon your religion. I don't have a moral system that will help you live your life. I don't have simple answers to everything. All I am giving you is what is very probably the truth, and legitimate reasons to believe it.
     
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  2. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    ApostateAbe, clever name :)

    You do realise don't you that your argument only applies to one view of God, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, YHWH.

    This is where you go wrong;
    It's simply not true. Wicca and other pagan religions, Hinduism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism and my own path - modern Gnosticism, hold beliefs in Deity not constricted by the 'evidence' you use to disprove God.

    Abrahamic monotheism does not hold the monopoly on God.

    I do agree with most of the 'evidence' you give. However, i would think it unwise for you to assume that just because the Abrahamic version of God is, for you, unlikely to exist, that it means all views of God are therefore equally unlikely.
     
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  3. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    Great post ApostateAbe, very good points.
     
  4. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    Yep, and he only dealt with religious beliefs in the supernatural. He never discusses the worship of the gods as nature, nor does he deal with superstition as a valid form of religious belief.
     
  5. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    I agree with you, ApostateAbe, when refuring to the judeo-christian god (it was a bit long winded, though, I did skim a bit). But in my case, my 'god' is nature, and there is plenty of evidence nature exists. You have to remember, as was mentioned, there are many different versions of 'god' (or the goddess, as I prefer), I use it more as a metaphor, really.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I somehow missed the "Evidence that God does not exist", perhaps because you've presented none.
     
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  7. standing_alone

    standing_alone Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what he intended, but usually when testing something scientifically, you need to define what is being tested (so everyone knows EXACTLY what is being tested, so people don't have misconceptions), and testing something as broad as every different version of gods that mankind came up with would be impossible. So perhaps what he was trying to do was state that the Judeo-Christian god doesn't exist. One could test one version of god, then the next and so on. One can't test all gods at once because their "powers" vary. As much as I agree with the poster's belief that the Judeo-Christian god does not exist, I have to agree with Duet. No real decent evidence was presented, just an unfulfilled Bible prophecy and a mention of the god-of-the-gaps argument.
     
  8. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    My eyes tend to cross when I see quote riddled texts.

    I find people usually use quotes to prove what they are not saying.
     
  9. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    The Human Soul is a Proof that God Exists

    One interesting field of medical research today is research being done on Near-Death Experiences (NDE)s.

    The Lancet, which is the most prestigious medical journal in the UK, in December 2001 published the research results of experiments done in Holland in a number of hospitals on patients who were in critical conditions, in intensive care units. The researchers found that more than 10% of the sample studied experienced what is known as NDE.

    Here is a brief description, if of interest:

    http://www.mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/dutch_study.html

    A second study has been taking place in the UK, by researchers at Southampton University.

    This initial research is proving that human beings are more than just a physical body, that we have an additional "component" (the soul).

    Where does the sould come from?

    Where does it go?

     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I have to agree. I saw no so called "evidence."
     
  11. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    I assume by 'evidence' he/she is assuming that it is evident from lack of evidence. :jiggy:
     
  12. Solon

    Solon Active Member

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    Evidence ? LOL, evidence of a non-exsitant God would be hard to find.

    S
     
  13. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I would also point out that chi is not seen as supernatural. That is all I care to point out at this present time.
     
  14. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    I would have to disagree. Chi isn't something I consider natural.
     
  15. Beck63Don

    Beck63Don Member

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    The soul comes from the Goddess and God and will return to them (or to the Ultimate Mystery) upon the death of the body.
     
  16. Think Bright

    Think Bright Member

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    Oh yeah :woohoo: Do the worms and maggots go with the "soul"? Dead is dead or ain't ya heard
     
  17. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Do you consider energy natural? That is all chi is, energy. The chinese just devised exercises so that we can optimize and use that energy to better our health, spirituality, and better defend ourselves. It isn't supernatural, no more than the electrical current surging throughy our computer is supernatural.
     
  18. Beck63Don

    Beck63Don Member

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    Obviously, the body gets recycled in Nature, but the soul moves on to it's next incarnation, or stays with the Ultimate Mystery. It's beyond me why you can't see that! Dead is dead for the body alone.
     
  19. Think Bright

    Think Bright Member

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    There ain't no soul cept in music. Maybe your soul is just cause ya ain't Bright.
     
  20. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    Mmm I don't think the parent topic was refering to Chi in that way. I think it was refering to the whole 'Crouching Tiger' popular concept of chi.
     
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