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Featured Evidence God Is

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Intelligent design arguments were particularly powerful among the better educated up to the 18th century, because there seemed no alternative explanation. While God came under pressure on a number of fronts in the latter 18th century on, the cake was iced by Darwin's book 1859. It didn't introduce the idea of evolution but it suddenly gave it massive credibility across all classes.

    Evolution has the additional advantage of explaining things by means of testable (ie falsifiable) statements.

    Intelligent design, by contrast,

    explains nothing, since it relies on magic without offering any credible demonstration that magic exists, or any credible hypothesis how magic works, and

    proceeds by assertion and not by demonstration, and

    attempts to use fallacious arguments, not least the argument from ignorance (you can't explain that, therefore God did it)
    and so on.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm here to debate.
    That's what debate forums are for.
    I'm not here looking for information. Nor asking for any.
    The forums are not a school where people jump on and play teacher, and look down their noses on others as students - thinking others don't know what they know.
    Actually, I feel sorry for those who are here with that mentally.
    Or perhaps it's a tactic to try and demoralize their opponent.
    Try to debate ... When all else fail... Try to degrade.
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you can give an example of magical.
    If I assume that nothing brought forth something would you consider that magic?
    How about existing matter moving without a mover?
    If I speak of chaotic gas as dust being pulled together into an orderly system by something I can't explain, and have no idea what it is, is that magic?
    If I make assumptions about things for which I do not know, nor can demonstrate, except by supposition, is that an appeal to magic?

    If I speak of what is known, for example, design, and it requiring a designer, is that a fabricated fallacious argument?
     
  4. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    if i replace "chaos" with "random" does it change the meaning of what you said?

    edit: "randomness" instead of "random" maybe
     
  5. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Do you wish to discuss how the evolutionary process satisfactorily explains the origins and subsequent development of the nervous system? I am happy to discuss this. Would you like me to start a new thread on that specific topic? I worry that this thread has too many divergent conversations going and will distract from a sustained discussion on the subject.
     
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  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Magic is the altering of reality independently of the rules of physics, usually just by wishing. Miracles are therefore a subset of magic.
    Moving relative to what?
    If I were in that position, and uncomprehending, I'd put it down to my ignorance, not to magic. Magic is essentially not credible, there being not one authenticated example anywhere, so you have to exhaust all the other options, even the most grossly improbable ones, before magic can be the answer.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I guess it could be the supposition of magic. I don't see any way it could actually be magic.
    Depends what you mean by a designer. As for inanimate things, should we think that every snowflake is designed and made by some tiny sentient master-craftsthing with nothing better to do? As for living things, evolution is well described, its conclusions constantly tested and retested, and evolution accounts for the fact that particular living things have the particular qualities they do. We know why flowers gain from being colorful, why surviving long enough to reproduce is the central essential of life, why humans bond, and the biochemicals involved, and so on ─ no designer needed at any point.
     
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  7. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    That is my point, why do you ponder about the big questions? Why do you care if there are other planets when you look in your telescope? humans what to know and understand stuff just for the sake of knowing and understanding, sometimes we waste money, energy, brain power in finding answers for useless questions.

    Imagine 2 communities of apes.

    Community one: is intelligent, they can solve practical problems, for example if they need to travel faster, they would invent a vehicle that would allow them to travel faster, but they don’t have the capacity nor the curiosity to answer the “big questions” they simple don’t care.

    Community two: Is also intelligent and good in solving practical problems, but it also wonders about the “Big Questions”

    From an atheist perspective, Natural selection would select “community 1”, because “Community 2” has unnecessarily complex brains and wastes precious energy in useless philosophical stuff. Any member of community 2 would be less likely to evolve and less likely to survive.

    Given that we are like “community 2” we can say that atheism is likely to be wrong
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Woah. Didnt know you did this so soon. I just got online.. Anyway....
    I dont. I wasnt raised in a household that asked questions like that, and only just recently have I lived in a 100 percent christian environment.

    I love geology or the study of the earth. Ima nature fanatic but you can say its spiritual, but Im just me.

    I think youre talking about other people who do this. I dont have the time and energy in my head to ponder the universe and god and so forth.

    Actually, thats a generalization. I just dont believe in deities. ALl what you mentioned doesnt apply to me. Big questions arent aligned with god. Many worldviews, philosophers, and religious address these questions. Not all of us feel the need to but its interesting nonetheless.

    How so?

    How do you define a deity to which any person can know without experience?

    In other words, if deities exist, can you explain it from a universal standpoint or only personal?
     
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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You can search in YoutTube for: our brain creates reality
    A lot of interesting stuff

    No. I never asked that. The universe wasnt created. Everything changes and forms within each other. Im not into astrology, so I dont know the mechanics.

    I remember hearing about aliens and maybe we can live on Mars.

    As for god, no. I mean, think about it? If god is not in your reality, how can you just make-one-up just because you hear other people believe it and read it in books?

    Many people care. Its not useless just it never entered my worldview for many reasons.

    Think of it another way. Since god (as said) created the universe, why would you not think he did so by evolution and natural selection?

    Do you think evolution and natural selection are random??

    It depends on what you want to accomplish. I dont see it a waste of time. I like studying the workings of the mind when I have the terminology to understand what Im interested in. Why-this. Why-that. If I went to The Dharma, The Buddha mentions not to even think about things like that. Even the afterlife he put aside because it doesnt lead to the goal of enlightenment. These questions are distractions.

    Useless??

    Atheist arguments??
    What arguments do atheist make offline??

    I mean, Im an atheist but without going on RF, what arguments am I supporting all because I dont believe in god?

    What you said doesnt make sense.

    If you change your perception, natural selection and evolution could be how god created life.

    I like going to this museum. Its interesting when it talks about evolution The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program The thing is, why is this a threat to some god-believers?

    Does it try to disprove god???
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You can search in YoutTube for: our brain creates reality
    A lot of interesting stuff

    No. I never asked that. The universe wasnt created. Everything changes and forms within each other. Im not into astrology, so I dont know the mechanics.

    I remember hearing about aliens and maybe we can live on Mars.

    As for god, no. I mean, think about it? If god is not in your reality, how can you just make-one-up just because you hear other people believe it and read it in books?

    Many people care. Its not useless just it never entered my worldview for many reasons.

    Think of it another way. Since god (as said) created the universe, why would you not think he did so by evolution and natural selection?

    Do you think evolution and natural selection are random??

    It depends on what you want to accomplish. I dont see it a waste of time. I like studying the workings of the mind when I have the terminology to understand what Im interested in. Why-this. Why-that. If I went to The Dharma, The Buddha mentions not to even think about things like that. Even the afterlife he put aside because it doesnt lead to the goal of enlightenment. These questions are distractions.

    Useless??

    Atheist arguments??
    What arguments do atheist make offline??

    I mean, Im an atheist but without going on RF, what arguments am I supporting all because I dont believe in god?

    What you said doesnt make sense.

    If you change your perception, natural selection and evolution could be how god created life.

    I like going to this museum. Its interesting when it talks about evolution The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program The thing is, why is this a threat to some god-believers?

    Does it try to disprove god???
     
  11. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    In order to claim something is designed, without the designer showing up and claiming credit, you need a method for determining what is and what is not designed. If everything is designed because there is an intelligent designer behind it, then there is no way to distinguish and the claim is effectively meaningless.

    I could give MY understanding but this OP is about yours.

    So can you provide an example of something that is not designed or not the result of an intelligent designer? If not, then I think this OP is self-negating and does not provide any useful insight into the nature or origin of anything.

    Without dark there is no light. Without non-design there is no design.
     
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  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    You are a theistic evolutionist, then?
     
  13. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    That is my point, why do you go to museums? …you answer would be:

    Well because you like to learn for the sake of learning, you simply what to understand stuff about our past. You are simply curios in knowing and understanding this stuff.

    But this type of curiosity requires an extra layer of complexity I our brain, which is useless from the point of view of natural selection and consumes a lot of energy. (Therefore it would be selectively negative, and unlikely to be selected by natural selection),
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    No. It's like any subject. If I study psychology that doesn't mean I have some secret reason to understand why religious are religious.

    There is nothing special in interest in topics regardless of what they are. That doesn't make sense. Religion isn't special unless we use it to better our lives. If it's academic, then thats as fat as it goes.
     
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  15. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Grate, but that is not my argument.

    My argument is that humans are curios creatures who what to learn stuff, just for the sake of learning, for example scientists what to understand what dark matter is, just because they are curios. Agree….yes or no?

    This type of curiosity requires an extra layer of complexity in our brain……..agree? yes or no?

    This extra layer of complexity demands additional energy (complex brains require more energy than simple brains)……agree? Yes or no?

    This type of curiosity is selectively useless, (understanding dark matter would not make our specie better in surviving and reproducing) agree? yes or no?

    “Godless Natural selection” is unlikely to select an attribute that is useless and consumes a lot of energy agree? Yes or no?

    If you grant these points it follows that the human brain, who has these type of curiosity, is not likely to evolve by a mechanism of “Godless Natural selection”
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I dont believe in an omnipotent being.
     
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  17. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Therefore the topic exists independwnt from the bible and has zero to do with the bible. A simple child like understanding of the topic of ID is " we exist in a virtual reality." that is false.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't agree, and the court in the Dover trial 2005 didn't agree either, ruling that ID was just a mask for creationism with fingers crossed that it could avoid the pre-existing rulings of SCOTUS and be taught (as "science"! unbelievable!) in schools.

    The Intelligent Designer has to be God, and since its proponents are Creo Christians, the Creo Christian God. If the ID is not a god then ID doesn't propose a solution, merely an infinite regression: how did the ID evolve to the point where it could get into the ID business, when humans can't? Their evolution must have been modified by an earlier ID, who not being God, must have evolved with the assistance of an earlier ID, who not being God, must have &c &c &c.
     
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  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Everything yes but the godless comment. Natural selection could be gods way of creation, true?

    Creation doesn't need the supernatural to be an act of God.
     
  20. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    General curiosity would certainly be a useful trait as it would assist in knowing about one's environment.

    Various traits are side effects of useful ones. For example, infants learning from parents, while necessary for practical matters, also makes them vulnerable to scams like religion.

    Your argument is specious.
     
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