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Featured Evidence God Is

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Refresh my memory. What is a God and what was your demonstration of a real one?
    You mean, for example, that the world is flat? And fixed at the center of creation? And that the sky is hard dome to which the stars are affixed such that if they come loose, they'll fall to earth? That pi=3? Is that what you're referring to?
    So you've ignored my offer to give you links to answer questions you may have about evolution and instead made the claim that I haven't answered any of your questions (which is a singular statement from someone who's gone to such lengths to avoid answering mine)

    And you didn't look at the link I gave you setting out the bible's own statements about its understandings of cosmology? It's not too late to inform yourself: >here's that link again<.

    As for the Flood, if the top of Mt Everest was 15 feet under water at any time when wood technology existed sufficient to build a biblical ark, then you couldn't possibly avoid having overwhelming amounts of evidence for it including:

    ─ an unmistakable unified geological flood layer all over all continents, and islands, and the ice caps, and the ocean floor;

    ─ a >genetic bottleneck< in every species of land animal, every bottleneck dating to the same date, towit the date of the biblical flood, when the breeding stock of every species was at most seven pairs and in most cases only one;

    ─ and 1.113 billion cubic miles more water than is presently on the earth.

    Explain to me why of those three wholly unavoidable, overwhelmingly obvious, outcomes, incapable of being hidden, you have precisely none?

    As a footnote I add that on our present understanding there was never a time in the 4.5 bn years of the earth's history when the oceans covered 100% of the land.
    You've made a number of things very plain: that

    you think the bible is a book of science, instead of a book reflecting the understanding of the times and places it was written,

    you don't know how magic works, notwithstanding it's all you're offering as an alternative to evolution,

    you don't know how the first sloth came to be, nor any other species,

    you're less than frank about the identity of your 'designer' (and less than frank about your reasons for being less than frank)

    and you can't even tell me what a real god is.

    But since you want to quit this discussion, let's look on the bright side: you have the chance to learn. It's not important in the great scheme of things that you answer my questions to me. The important thing is that you answer them clearly and honestly to yourself, which with all due respect again you plainly haven't done.

    Truth is correspondence with reality, and science is the study of reality, and scientific method maximizes objectivity ─ it doesn't set out to give you the answers you want, only the answers that are true. That's a wonderful gift, and I hope you take it.
     
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  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    2. Not necessarily most of its history. No time stamp exists for the age of the earth.
    3. What is a new species, and by what mechanism do you get a new one?

    I first need to understand how you answer #2, before I can move on.
    Where is my $100.00? Did Hockeycowboy answer? Then you owe him $100.00 also.
     
  3. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    School dropouts most likely value practical things more. Half the stuff in school you don't really need. If I cut out the repetitive lessons from my school years alone, I'd have been done by 5th grade.

    Ask God why normally mouthed beings are sometimes born without one.

    Says the author. I want divine confirmation. Having trouble getting one.

    If matter or energy can't be created nor destroyed, that means God can't do it either.

    Cars don't reproduce. Also, if he were truly an expert, he could tell you the history of the evolution of engines.
    Automotive engine - Wikipedia

    Josiah - Wikipedia

    Finding one book isn't finding all of them.
    From 2 Kings:
    22
    Note that he follows the ways of DAVID, not MOSES.

    Josiah sounds like this one book is ALL THERE IS in terms of scripture. Surely you don't need Deut specifically to follow God (you don't really need the scriptures at all if you believe God is alive). Yet Josiah acts like no one could do anything because no one knew what to do other than what was explained in ONE BOOK.

    23
    Again, if they had all the other books, why are they all acting like this is news to them?

    AGAIN, Passover is mentioned in Exodus, so the fact they don't even know what it is means they don't have any book other than the one they conveniently found when a national origin story was needed and the Yahwist priests needed social and economic monopolies. Meat and money going to other temples weren't going to them, after all. They even went to the trouble of mandating certain services at ONE temple, Solomon's temple. That makes no sense if God is everywhere and He cares about every one of His people. They should be able to have as many temples as they like. It would cut into the profit margins of the Temple, though, so it was banned.

    Now kangaroos can build boats?

    Anyone who can watch rainclouds will see rain come from them. Duh.

    Not according to those who think surgical patients can get by on normal saline.

    But they didn't. There's simply no evidence for it.

    Medicine was more advanced in other civs, though, plus even nonhumans self-medicate.

    And who, as a man raised as an Egyptian prince, would've been familiar with Egyptian medicinal practices.

    https://www.ancient.eu/Egyptian_Medicine/

    From the religion that believes one should spray blood everywhere when sacrificing animals? Yeah, that sounds sanitary.

    From the sound of it, same old, same old. Sexual recycling at its best.

    But why ignore when they DON'T function properly?

    We're going by genetics, too.

    Like, "why can Jesus heal anything but John the Baptist stayed dead"?

    They will definitely have the sweet dreams of knowing the medical profession is interested in how things actually work instead of just chanting some songs and hoping God takes care of it.

    The fact there are smarter ways of doing things doesn't help.

    Never been to a chemistry class, have you? You can mix lots of stuff together and other stuff will just kinda happen.



    Pay particular attention to some money you can light on fire AND IT WON'T BURN.

    On the contrary. The bible plagiarizes texts from other cultures, even spells and incantations.

    And they still get the answer wrong.

    So everyone confirmed better numbers than Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. Got it.

    Rounding while constructing things will end badly.
    Any competent carpenter: Measure twice, cut once.
    Bible: Meh. This oughta be in the ballpark. It'll be fine.

    It lacks biological, physical, and historical accuracy. It is also highly immoral.
     
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  4. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    This is fun ! You deserve to be followed.

    This looks like an escape attempt to me.

    So, I repeat: what has theology achieved in all these centuries of deep thought and formidable scholarship?

    Does God exist? If yes, which one is it? Do we, at least, know today the sex of the angels? :)

    You mentioned atheology. Which I have no ida what that is. Smells like complicated machines designed to kill a fly.

    i know. I actually personally know one that studies theology here in Lucerne.

    And I also have fun discussing Kalam, Leibnitz, modal logic, PSR, ontological, teleological, etc. arguments. I would not be here otherwise. And it is indeed fun. Sometimes I even keep the heavy weapon away not to win too fast. Unless I feel lazy.

    We can discuss the argument from contingency, and fill out the therads with modal logic inferences, which is one of my favorites, if you want. Kalam is so lame, while Leibnitz was definetely more fun to kill.

    What I argue is that you do not really to go that far to dismiss gods. Fun, but again, pointless. The centuries of inconclusiveness that characterizes what you call theology is evidence enough of its pointlessness.

    I am not asking to give it up. Are you kidding. They are fun. Albeit pointless, since you will have moral realists and moral relativists or whatever for ever. While other disciplines are more conclusive. For instance nobody sane will believe today the earth is flat.

    BTW: is there a meta-meta-ethic that provides the framework on which meta-ethics operate?

    Different views? Well, I am sure a muslim will not recognize the miracles of the competition and vice versa without risking to be blown up by its students. So, probably some theologians think it is better to stay clear of miracles and stuff to avoid self defeat.

    Hej, that is cool. How am I doing as a theologian?

    False conclusion. You make it sound like that atheists that find religious beliefs ridicolous are a new phenomenon. I wonder why people would believe that.

    True, some are more respectful while other just laugh out. But In order to make an objective assessment we would have to test what it would have meant to compare transubstantiation to turning a toast into the ghost of Elvis something like a few decaed ago. In civilized Italy, for instance, that is still a felony today.

    False conclusion. i never said that new atheism is exactly like the old. i am saying that what you call new atheists today alway existed, among the others. Only difference, they can speak freely now. But they always existed. Unless you believe that religion is more ridicolous today as it was in the past, or that people had less sense of humor in the past.

    I understand theists like to hide behind their theological superiority. In the same way astrologists hide behind the arcane “science” of the stars. But the truth is that your theological arguments are like the so called emperor without clothes. We make that visible, and some theists do not like it, obviously.

    True. Not burned maybe, but as I told you, exposing ridicolous things like transubstantiation will land you in jail today in Italy.

    It was not the Church who burned G. Bruno, for instance? True, they maybe delegated some hangman from the local government. I doubt that clears the criminal responsibility of the church. Even worse, it is also coward to not do the job itself.

    When do you think the Catholic Church pardon Galileo for saying that the earth orbit around the sun against the “theologian” view that it is the other way round? And how ridiculous is that, that they did it only a few decades ago? And you expect respect?

    Talking of scholarship. Have you read the historical treatise “the criminal history of Christianity”, by KH Deschner?

    Surely not. I told you, it is fun. I would also be against abolishing religion. Masterworks of western civilization like Michelangelo works and Monty Pythons’ “Life of Brian” would not have existed with Christianity.

    What do you think of jediists? Here we have a nice counterexample of a community that worship star wars characters.

    Wait. Maybe they are not fictional at all. Maybe Mickey Mouse is the true creator of the Universe and revealed himself to W. Disney who mistakenly interpreted it as a figment of His imagination.

    This theological arguments are really fun. How am I doing?

    My jediist case proves you wrong. If people start worship official figments of the imagination, imagine what they can do with unofficial ones.

    Oh, sorry for my ignorance. i was not aware that liberal Christians also compare resurrections and taking off to heaven as equivalent to the magical powers Excalibur.

    Yes, and it is fun. I am sure that my hypothesys of Mickey Mouse being the true god who revealed himself to Dysney and got misunderstood by a fallible human, must have shaken the fundaments of religious belief.

    So, if a god says that all humans are equal, while another says that they should be divided in castes at birth, then they cannot be possibly both true. Do you need physolosophy for that?

    I see. Fallible human misenterprations. Like W. Disney.

    Sophisticated? Yes, let’s make them so sophisticated that only a few elected can follow them. Like the arguments for astrology, maybe? They are also a sort of barrier to hide, you know, some emperor nudity. :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #304 viole, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  5. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Jesus: I have risen from the grave that one time! I'm awesome!
    Jean Grey: LOL!
    Goku: LOL!
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    God is spirit. I am sure I gave a demonstration on this thread. You would not understand it though, but likely, I'm almost certain, you understand Dark Matter, and Dark Energy, and perhaps Multiverse / Parallel Universe, and Inflation, and something from nothing. No magic there of course.

    What you say here is nothing that I know of. Are they your interpretations? Apparently they are all wrong. Sorry. I addressed Pi on this thread also.
    I am already aware that no matter how many times you fail, you will still try again - even repeating. You seem to like that. :)

    It appears to me you are speculating, but I don't think there is anything more you can do. Do you think there is?

    If I made these clear, why did you get them all wrong?
    Where did I say the Bible is a book of science? Where did I say I don't know how magic works? Where did I say I don't know how the first sloth came to be?
    Oh, I see. These are all lies you made up. So you are just expressing your fabricated ideas.
    !t hurts that I have to deal with people like this, on these forums. In fact, it's taking a great deal of self-control for me right now, to temper my words, but I tend to give persons chances to behave. :sunglasses:

    You want to teach? Teaching is not a bad thing, provided one is teaching what is fine.
    I like to teach too, In fact, I am a teacher - a teacher of God's word - truth found in the Bible.
    It's actually saving lives right now, and saving people's sanity from delusional teachings by Bible haters, and God haters.
    It's making unhappy people happy. :)
    Not only that, it is making lying people honest, not because they fear death, but because the have found love, in their loving creator, and father - their grand designer.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Don't panic. You'll get it. I already have confirmation. Don't forget, not all of us have eyes to see.

    Why can't the source of energy create and destroy?

    Good point. So the designer is responsible for the change in the design. The design isn't.

    :confused:

    I get the impression you think the "book of the law" is the Torah. It's not.

    :dizzy:

    There are a whole lot of things we can tell by watching things. I agree. Thanks.

    No one thinks that. Of course you know that don't you? You just basically said it.

    There's simply no evidence for that. You think so.

    :)

    Great demonstration of cause and effect. Take away the cause - the chemists - let's see it happen.

    That's what you believe.
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If God is real then [he] exists in reality. Things of 'spirit' exist only in the imagination of individuals, which is why they're never found in nature. If you disagree, please tell me the objective test that will distinguish 'spirit' from 'imaginary'.
    No, they're plain words. Didn't you check out the link to see what the bible actually says? It describes a flat earth, fixed immovably at the center of creation, with a hard dome over it to which the sun stars &c are fixed. I've told you all this before, I've given you the link to the biblical quotes, and your only response is to pretend I haven't. Really, that does little for your credit.
    You've made it clear that you can't give any explanation of your alternative to evolution. You can't even tell us how the first sloth came to be. You can't tell us who or what the designer is. All that is true. Why do you want to pretend it isn't?
    You admired the science of the bible again and again. Don't pretend otherwise.
    You said it loud and proud with your pattern of evasion, evasion, evasion. Clear as day you don't know.

    Still, the things we have in common are, in their way, as interesting as our differences ─ neither of us knows how magic works, for instance, and neither of us has a useful definition of a real God such that we could tell one if we came across one. And we agreed earlier that science is a tool.
    That silly talk only makes you look desperate.

    But as I said, the truth is out there (rather than in your neolithic science book) and again I invite you to embrace reality and quit the fairylands where animals pop into being because the magician says the magic words (or whatever the technique is ─ you couldn't explain it).
     
    #308 blü 2, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Then you are saying, you don't have thoughts, dreams, faith, hope, love, lust, meaning, and even imagination... I can live with that.

    Interestingly that you have become so materialism - no caught up in naturalism, you don't even know what spirit - so far removed from your spiritual side. How sad. :(
    I could just imagine the emptiness.

    I looked at the link. Do you think if I look at it again, it will magically reflect the truth rather than a whole lot of wrong interpretations? You believe in magic?

    I'm not pretending. Those are all lies, and this is the second time. Don't make it a third.

    You cannot show me one quote where I say anything about the Bible being a science book, nor a book of science.

    Your appeal for attention is telling.

    I have found the truth. I know you want it, but you won't get it fighting the grand designer of life. Hiding behind a bunch of theories accepted on the base of speculative ideas won't get you the real life either.

    When that propped up tree falls, you will go with it.... unless you let go, and take hold of the truth of the grand instructor, who designed all living things.
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    We're talking about whether God is real or imaginary. If God were present in reality then there'd be no argument about [his] existence, but [he] isn't ─ the world behaves exactly as though [he] were imaginary, an aspect of how some people think, hence act, but as an entity with objective existence, never detected, never doing, never saying.

    Not only that, but as I pointed out before, this view is completely supported by the lack of any useful concept of God as real ─ the absence of that definition of a real God that neither you nor I have.
    The quotes on the link reflect the understanding of the people who wrote the various books. They thought the world was flat and the sun and stars went round it, because that's how it looks if you don't know. And that's what they wrote, as you've seen.

    Why would you expect them to write anything else?

    *

    blü:
    you can't give any explanation of your alternative to evolution. You can't even tell us how the first sloth came to be. You can't tell us who or what the designer is. All that is true. Why do you want to pretend it isn't?
    you:
    I'm not pretending. Those are all lies, and this is the second time.​

    I simply don't believe you, having watched you not answer and not answer and not answer simple direct questions about your own position. Put up or shut up. How did the first sloth come to be? How does magic work? Is God the designer?
    I've already mentioned that in my view a statement is true to the extent it conforms to / accurately reflects / corresponds with objective reality.

    I asked you before what test you use to determine whether any statement is true or not. It's another one of those questions you didn't answer, but since you've raised the subject, please make it clear what test you use to determine 'truth'.
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Well Well Well. :facepalm:
    If your thoughts were real.... If your dreams were real.... If your imagination were real.... etc., etc., etc., I would see them right? I would have no reason to questions whether they were real or not, right? [​IMG]
    So they are not real, and you cannot demonstrate that they are. You can't even demonstrate that you can imagine them.

    These are your interpretations. There are not right. Okay?

    I answered all your questions.
    The one on magic seems to me a joke, so I think the same way you went on the internet to find scriptures to argue on, and came up with a flat earth, you can do the same for magic.
    However, all your questions were answered.
    If you are not paying attention, as I said before, it's not my fault.
    I already repeated something for you, a third time, and it was a waste, because, you refused to answer two question I posed in response to what I consider a wild and baseless statement.
    I could point out the exact post where I answered these questions, but I get the impression that you are not interested in answers to your questions - You seem more interested in something else - something else besides addressing anything to do with the OP.
     
  12. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    God told me He didn't say half of what's in the bible and humans wrote the thing. God confirmed something, just not anything you like.

    Because matter and energy CANNOT be created nor destroyed.

    This is only the case because cars can't reproduce. You would see a more natural setup if cars had sex.

    No, my point is that as they seem to have NO OTHER BOOKS beside the one they "found", that means the rest of the OT doesn't exist at least until King Josiah if not later.

    I posted several quotes from the bible itself that shows there is a huge problem with Moses traditionally writing the Torah, as clearly he couldn't because they didn't exist in King Josiah's time, per the king himself. You ignored all of that. At best all that can be said is that someone claiming to be Moses wrote Deuteronomy. That's it. And that's unlikely too since nothing in the exodus story actually happened per history.

    Yes, but you tend to see God in rainclouds. I see condensation and precipitation.

    I'm sorry. There have been members here who seem to think that normal saline is all that's necessary to get by in surgery and that blood products are never necessary. It's such a hugely irresponsible thing to think that I couldn't take it anymore and blocked such nonsense.

    Archaeology is not your friend.

    I LINKED you a source to show you evidence of ancient practices. Isn't it weird that every culture who owned "Israel" were the ones who had actual knowledge (as far as it was going to get in that era)? Hebrews invented little if anything. Schools were more for learning about the scriptures, not for any other subject. The bible complains often that Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were getting their butts whooped by technologically superior civs. You know how you can fix that? Stop insisting that throwing some rocks is all that God wants. But what am I to say when God's armies can be defeated by iron chariots? God forbid God should have to fight us with planes and tanks and stuff now.

    Did the students design how chemistry works? No? Then you've got nothing.

    It's YOUR quotes. YOU showed that everyone other than Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were closer to the real number. YOU showed it, not me.

    All of those are based on electrochemical signals in the brain. They aren't magic.

    How can you prove Yahweh is the grand designer of life when the bible notes an older tradition that He's pretty much a district manager assigned by His Father El to govern Hebrews? That's not "designing everything". That's being told what to do by Daddy. Even Daddy, who was actually considered the Creator, couldn't possibly have made the earth or sky because like Cronus, He was BORN of them.

    Ever heard of an MRI?
     
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  13. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    Um no. What are you going on about?

    Some parts are true, because they are. Some parts aren't true, because they aren't. It's still about evidence.

    Evidence of what, exactly? That the entire Bible is true? It just isn't. Sorry.

    You do realize that you don’t have to literally say “this is an assertion” to be making an assertion, right? Sorry, but that’s the argument you’re making, as far as I can tell. It looks designed to you, and so it must be. I’ve been reading the thread since the beginning. But I’m open always open to clarification from your end (that you haven’t provided here for some reason).

    Perhaps you should be explaining what design is, given that you’re the one asserting that the universe is a product of premeditated design.
     
  14. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    Please define what "spirit" is.
     
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  15. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    Then how do you determine that something is "designed"?

    We do? By what methodology was that conclusion reached?

    BTW, what made you decide to stop ignoring my posts?
     
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  16. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    In the interest of clarity, about how old do you think the earth is and how long do you think life has existed on it?

    In general a new species is one that is unable to produce viable offspring with its parent species (reproductive isolation), and they arise via evolutionary mechanisms, which we've observed, studied, and documented multiple times.

    Ya kinda need to answer the questions in a meaningful way first.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Then you believe a god spoke to you? Okay.

    The source of energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

    If cars could reproduce, I would see little baby cars growing to bid adult cars - not airplanes.

    Could you in the future please clip one or two paragraphs from the article, so that I will know what you are referring to.
    I don't understand what you are saying.
    When did Moses live? When did Josiah live? What is the book of the Law?

    I don't see God in rainclouds. Where did you get that idea?

    I think you have a mistaken view, perhaps it is due to how you feel about people that view things different to you... I don't know.
    Perhaps talking with doctors can help you get a better understanding.
    Using saline solution as an alternative to blood products, is not an indication that someone does not believe the statement, "the life of the flesh is in the blood."
    Why don't we all just go out and have a blood fest, and drink as much as we possibly can? The more the healthier right?

    Not seeing your point. Perhaps you can clarify. Are you saying the Israelites knew nothing... that they had to borrow things?
    From what the Bible says, the Israelites became chosen by God, for one purpose, and that purpose was not advanced technology.
    Archeology supports this.

    Who designed it?

    Closer to what? Here.

    Maybe use MRI to scan the universe for the almighty, supernatural then.
     
  18. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, whoa, whoa ... archaeology supports the assertion that the Israelites were chosen by God and for a specific purpose? Pardon?
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Did you not say to me that the reason for you not believing in those other parts, is because you don't believe in the supernatural? So how could it be about evidence... could you explain that to me please?

    You have made up your mind that is is not true, because there is no evidence it is, or you just don't believe it?
    Can you show why it is not true?

    So why are you avoiding answering me - why don't you explain to me what design is. I already did.
    If you are really following so closely then it would be impossible for you to have missed it, unless you suffer from CVI.

    You are volunteering to answer? Go ahead.
    Explaining what spirit is, if you haven't a clue, is pointless, imo.
    Do you need a dictionary?

    The prevailing academic opinion today is that the Israelites were a mixture of peoples predominantly indigenous to Canaan, although an Egyptian matrix of peoples may also have played a role in their ethnogenesis, with an ethnic composition similar to that in Ammon, Edom and Moab, and including Hapiru and Šośu. The defining feature which marked them off from the surrounding societies was a staunch egalitarian organisation focused on Yahweh worship, rather than mere kinship.
     
    #319 nPeace, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  20. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    I'm not the one asserting that spirit exists. You are. So you should define it so people know what it is you're talking about.

    Please grasp how the burden of proof works.
     
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