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Evidence for YHWH that is not evidence for the IPU

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Mr Spinkles, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure the broken window wasn't caused by a kid, and the kid lied and said there was a burglary to get exempt from punishment?

    Are you sure the grief on the mourners face isn't just acting?

    You keep failing to think god can be proven on law and order.

    History does NOT indicate clearly, exemplify, or prove gods existence.

    Support by testimony does not necessitate fact.

    It is also plainly visible that god does not exist.

    And if someone could take a picture of god, you'd have an argument. But since that will NEVER happen, law and order falls short once again.
     
  2. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Limbo - you arguments are becoming a bore. There is no need for any of us to respond to your posts
     
  3. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I think he sees them as cr*p in the same way I do, that I have never seen anyone anywhere pose such arguements. If not I am sorry for speaking what I don't know.

    You are hung up on the idea that he is trying to prove unequivocably that God exists(which as far as I have read he has yet to claim).

    Now, I have never said the support by testimony necessitates fact, but it does lend credence. LENDS CREDENCE.

    No such thing is plainly visible.
     
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  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    *****MOD POST*****

    There isn't any cause for anybody to insult anyone. No more references to other people's posts as "crap" or them as "bores."
     
  5. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree to your definition because it can't be used within the argument for god. Your definition works fine in the material sense, but not in the sense in which the concept of god is argued within. I understand that you are not trying to prove that god exists, only that it is likely that he does. Even so, history cannot be used, and thus the evidence for the likelihood of yahweh can be used for any other god. You claim I don't use reason, yet you still put forth fallacy after fallacy and claim reason for yourself. I notice now that you have no inclination to argue this logically, and am getting quite unnerved that you insist on not doing so. So instead of breaking something, I am not going to participate in your little argument here. I pointed you in the direction of logic, I leave it up to you to choose which way to go. I still want you to find all the statistics you can on bible prophecies, you may have an argument there. But I will no longer try to forcefeed your fallacies to you. I wish you luck in your prophecy research, and look forward to discussing, and perhaps debating your findings. Good night.
     
  6. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim New Member

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    First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for providing such an excellent debate. However, I am a little confused.

    Tao Vigil, you assert that historical evidence is not evidence for the existence of the metaphysical aspects of the bible; namely, prophecy, right?
    You also assert that evidence for biblical prophecies claimed by God is a better barometer than historical evidence, correct?

    Quote: "Have you found statistics on the total number of biblical prophecies, and the number of them that have actually been true? That is your best bet, why you keep losing sight of that I'll never know. But the bible cannot be used to prove that yahweh is god, anymore than it can be proved that the IPU is god. You will be lucky enough with your prophecy argument to atleast argue validly for the existence of the "uncommon ability" in which you call supernatural. But this does not come close to prove the existence of one god over another another." end quote.

    When you ask for proof of a fulfillment of a prophecy, you are asking for a specific event, at a certain time, at a certain place that the fulfillment took place. In essence, you are requiring that a moment of history be submitted as evidence for the metaphysical claims of the bible.

    Quote: "history doesn't have any bearing on the metaphysical claims." end quote.

    P.S. be gentle, its my first post.
     
  7. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You've only given us 4 prophecies # 1 and #2 are from the same verse. #2 is disqualified.

    The event you claim in #1 can not be validated because of your reference to Micah. Micah 5 speaks of " 8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations," It does not apply to 1948. Isaiah 66 speaks of Jerusalem IN CONTEXT and that did not happen until 1967. Neither of these two reference are accomplished in 1948

    You have 3 remaining

    #3 IN CONTEXT refers to "1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog" a command not a prohecy. The "many years" refers to many troops from other nations. Isreal was not reclaimed in 1947 by an invading army

    You have 2 remaining

    #4 is the same "prophecy"( a command not a prophecy) as #3 - #4 is disqualified.

    You have 1 remaining

    In Ezekiel 22: 19-20, THE CONTEXT is "19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As men gather silver, copper, iron, lead and tin into a furnace to melt it with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you." punishment Tis verse does not predict 1967 (Where there men "melted"?)

    In Isa 28:14 it specifically says that others rule Jerusalem "14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD , you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem." The CONTEXT of the "prophecy does not support 1967.

    In Joel 2:32 THE CONTEXT says that the holding armies would be driven into the baren lands and the eastern and western seas. Thjis did not happen in 1967

    That eliminates all that you listed.

    Try again!!!




    :woohoo:
     
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  8. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    In order to understand WHY I`m confronted with God so often everywhere else.
     
  9. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You know Limbo, unless you are Dark_Stream or Dr. Charles Halff (those are the names of posters where I found your list) you have plagarized somebody else's work.

    You have set us on a task with a great deal of work and all by copying somebody else's writing. You don't even have the curtesy to acknowledge that somebody else originated the list. Which means that you have stolen intelectual property.

    I am going to ask the moderators to delete your post because it is against Religious Forums policy.
     
  10. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Umm limbo....Judiasm is a religion not a race. There is no such thing as a jewish race anymore than there is a christian race or hindu. I would expect more genealogy evidence before you say israel descendants reclaimed their land....The link is a religious preferance not a race or genealogical line.
     
  11. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You have not even apologized!!!!

    I have shown that I am willing to put in the work to debunk your claims but it turns out they are NOT your claims. You left my rebuttal of your first list intact and instead submitted a second list, a plaragized list.

    You seem to be a self-serving Christian when you foster the belief that stealling is a good way to spread God's word.

     
  12. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    By the way, this list appears at http://www.innerlifewellness.com/inspiration/docs/testimony.html and is yet another dispicable act of theft.

    That, my friend, is two out of two!!!!!!
     
  13. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    [emphas in quote is mine]You owe Religious Forums an apology instead of laughing about it.

    Now, I'm not going to discuss your sins again. You need to do your own work
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    *****MOD POST*****​

    Again, personal insults are out of line on all sides.
     
  15. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I believe this quote covers it. You now have a chance to refute that THAT
     
  16. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You would do well to find the original author of your first list. As a help, this is a list of "hits" for the phrase ""Israel shall be brought forth in one day" on google
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I don't think you can know without a lot of research. For all you know it came from a book in the 70s whose contents have been copied and recopied. It happens a lot. All you can do is make a reference to it when using it.
     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Yes, that gives credit to where you got it. It's usually a good policy to post a link.
     
  19. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Only the problem of your plagarizing seems to be solved.

    The real problem is you have chosen to copy prophecy from some other poster and have not done any research on the material!!!

    The context of Joel 3 does NOT occur in 1947

    The context of Amos 9 does NOT occur in modern times

    The context of Obadiah 1 does not occur in 1967 - the clue, even without referencing the bible, was the time frame of 2000 years

    Now, Limbo, that's the first three of this list. You are using me to do work you should have done in the first place. You have taken the word of a website and not gone to the source of the prophecy to authenicate the website.. I suspect that you did not even read the verses to confirm my rebuke of your first list. You, I'm afraid, are wasting our time.

    If you want to continue your argument of prophecy with me, I am going to insist that you verify that the prophecy from the site is indeed applicable.
     
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  20. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Actually, Master Vigil tends to be quite accurate in stating where he gets information. More often, it's simply because he knows it offhand, though.

    I think you would get a lot more people willing to help you debate if were kinder to those around you. (And maybe said you were honestly sorry to those you have been not very nice to.)
     
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