gnostic
The Lost One
Press the "Next page" button at the bottom.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Evidence for an ancient earth
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
The website uses something called the hydtoplate theory to explain the Grand Canyon. If you are willing we can compare it with plate tectonic theory and see where the geological evidence points to.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I'm sorry, but you are ducking the fact that the Faint Young Sun Paradox is accepted as one of several issues with a very old Sol. There are similar issues with the BB. Making jokes about brains or how Google has everything on the web, scientific and non-scientific, is irrelevant.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Funny that you chose the Sodom and Gomorrah example as an example of a slow phenomenon.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Don't twist my words, please. I wrote regarding punctuated equilbrium, which punches holes in SLOW evolution, not evolution.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The insult was the "nada, nyet" - only Siths talk in absolutes. Repeating, sediment that is actually a mountain range doesn't leave tell-tale signs when you simply drill a bit into the mountain!
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The link provided goes to the book, which lists dozens of anomalies pertaining to the subject matter, in current geology.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The book demonstrates the known anomalies with plate tectonic theory and the Canyon. Are you saying plate tectonics solves all the known issues in this case? That would be untrue, if I understand the science as a layman.
Regardless, which secular scientists 'punctuated equilbrium, which punches holes in SLOW evolution,'
In other words, which secular scientist have any objection to any part of evolution.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I'm familiar with that link and its counter-refutation. No.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I did not indicate that, no. Merely that current geology has some issues that are not yet resolved.
The book and website are terrible science. There are in reality no conflicts nor anomalies in the factual evidence of forming of the strata and the erosion involved. The scientist definitely do know how the Grand Canyon formed.
Actually, plate tectonics only explains part of the history of the Grand Canyon. Sedimentology, and Geomorphology (my specialty) explain the origin of the strata of the Grand Canyon, which extends throughout the region around the Grand Canyon. The strata includes, windblown sediments, ancient erosion surfaces, volcanic deposits, limestone deposits, and ocean sediments, nothing here can be explained in terms of a cataclysmic flood deposition.
The river pattern cutting through the strata shows a meandering river pattern with oxbows, which do not form in conditions of cataclysmic flooding and can only form by a river cutting down through the strata when the uplift began increasing the rate of cutting by the river. Cataclysmic flooding and erosion that occur in places like Mount Saint Helena do not show this meandering river pattern.
This phony strategy of the fallacy of an 'appeal to ignorance.' Merely??? Of course there are unknowns in all sciences, and these are the continually motivating science for further research, but no, in the history of the earth, plate tectonics, sedimentology, and geomorphology of the Grand Canyon there are no significant unknowns.
I will always ask for details concerning
'What issues that one considers not yet resolved that would weaken the scientific explanations.?'
As far as 'Where is the sediment from the erosion of the canyon?' Part of the answer is the current delta of the Colorado River is not the original outlet, and yes scientists know where the sediment is deposited. See next post.
Last edited:
One has to compare plate tectonic theory against hydroplate theory and decide which of the theories explain the geological features better and which had greater evidence for it. Since human knowledge is incomplete, no scientific theory exists that has yet been able to explain each and everything. We select the ones that explain things more than those which do not.
As far as plate tectonics is concerned, the difficulty with the Grand Canyon has not been so much with physical ability of the river to cut the rocks (it can) but whether it actually did. A river cannot be dated and eroded rocks existed before the erosion occured, so unlike mountain building, which can be dated, river erosion is difficult to date. But recent studies of more sophisticated dating has shown that a less shallow Canyon already existed 70 million years ago, which has been deepened by the Colorado River. So yes, most f the problems with the Grand Canyon complex gas been resolved in the last 10 years.
More Evidence for an Ancient Grand Canyon | Caltech
Basically large parts of the Canyon was formed over a large period 70-50 million years ago and recent Colorado River didn't cut it. There goes all objections present in your book with absolute dating of the Canyon formation period to back it up.
So you have to present a brief explanation of the hydroplate theory to me, how it works and how it explains the geological features of the earth. Brief explanations with targeted links would suffice, as I have done for my early posts laying out the evidence for ancient Earth.
I also have difficulty following the book you linked. It's not laid out in a way that clearly explains what the theory is, how it works, how it explains the various highly complicated geological features of the Grand Canyon as well as other geological features of the Earth.
Last edited:
Where is the sediment of the Grand Canyon?
From: Ancient Lake Cahuilla
FOR THREE MILLION YEARS, at least through all the years of the Pleistocene glacial age, the Colorado River worked to build its delta. By then, the delta had reached the western shore of the Gulf of California (the Sea of Cortez) creating a massive dam which excluded the sea from the northern reaches of the Gulf. Meandering at random across the ever-growing fan-shaped mass, the river changed its course constantly. For a while, the course would shift to the north, and the stream flowed into the isolated Salton basin, filling it with a large freshwater lake. Eventually, a river shift to the south to the Gulf of California would abandon the inland lake to evaporation and extinction.
As a result, the Salton basin has had a long history of alternately being occupied by a fresh water lake and being a dry, empty desert basin, all according to the random river flow, and the balance between inflow and evaporative loss. A lake would exist only when it was replenished by the river, a cycle that repeated itself countless times over hundreds of thousands of years.
There is abundant evidence that the basin was occupied by multiple lakes during this period. Wave-cut shorelines at various elevations are still preserved on the hillsides of the east and west margins of the present lake, the Salton Sea, showing that the basin was occupied intermittently as recently as a few hundred years ago. The last of the Pleistocene lakes to occupy the basin was Lake Cahuilla, identified on older maps as Lake Leconte.
Lake Cahuilla
Lake Cahuilla was possibly one of the largest lakes of the past. It was a huge freshwater body covering over 2,000 square miles to a depth of more than 300 feet. The lake was almost 100 miles long by 35 miles across at its widest point, extending from the delta in Mexico north to the vicinity of Indio. It was six times the size of the present Salton Sea. This ancient freshwater lake completely filled the Salton Basin to overflowing behind the natural delta-dam.
The muddy water of the Colorado River flowed into Lake Cahuilla for centuries. The rich soil of the Imperial and lower Coachella Valleys was built up from river silt deposited on the floor of the old lake. The thick accumulation of lakebed deposits is evidence of a long period of deposition.
The shoreline of the old lake is still visible at the base of the surrounding mountains. It averages about 40 feet above sea level, but varies from 25 to 50 feet elevation. The variability of elevation is thought to be due to subsidence of the basin floor.
Radiocarbon age-dating of charcoal and fish bones found interstratified in the lagoonal silts behind gravel bars suggests that the lake existed since before the year 1200. Further evidence discloses that about 900 years ago, while Lake Cahuilla was a young, vigorous freshwater lake, the Cahuilla Indians, generally thought to be connected to the Aztecs by language, appeared from the northeast.
With the first Spanish explorations in the 16th century, they found no lake in the Salton Basin. This suggests that Lake Cahuilla had evaporated completely by 1600, or about 400 years ago. Yet, these early Spanish records allude to Indian legends of the existence of a large body of water to the west. The Indians now living in the Coachella Valley have distinct legends to the effect that at some time in the past the valley was occupied by a large body of water.
Prof. Blake in his 1854 exploration report notes that the Indians told him of a time when a great body of water existed in which there were many fish and of the manner in which the water disappeared 'poco a poco' (little by little) until the lake became dry. The Indians now living in the desert put this event as far back as the lives of four or five very old men. (The year 1900 less four or five times 60 years would place the approximate time of its end at about the year 1600.)
Lake Cahuilla's end must have been rapid when it came. The lake had been sustained for centuries as the net inflow of river water balanced the loss by evaporation. But again, the river changed its course. Possibly there was an ancient flood caused by a surplus of melt water, or perhaps the river's own natural levees became so high to be unstable. Whatever the cause, the river changed its course to flow once again south into the Gulf of California, and the lake was abandoned.
When fresh river water was no longer supplied, evaporation became the dominant factor. The lake quickly wasted away, leaving beach deposits, travertine deposits, wave-cut cliffs, sand bars and other shoreline features as proof of its existence. In its final stages, the lake level appeared to have retreated in steps, as more than a dozen separate shorelines still appear in aerial photos of the western shore and the Coachella Canal between Niland and Mecca.
So it was that Lake Cahuilla disappeared, leaving a playa, a flat, extensive salt-encrusted mud flat, desolate and without vegetation. Typical of playas, the lake bed was a dry, smooth hard packed surface. When supplied with a little water from an infrequent rain, or perhaps some random inflow via the New River, the playa would temporarily become a huge pond, sometimes miles across but filled with only a few inches to a foot of water.
Lake Cahuilla left abundant evidence of its existence. Foremost among these is the old shoreline representing the high water level of the old lake. This is evident from Indio to Cerro Prieto in Mexico at a height of about 40 feet above sea level. Where the shore abutted the bedrock of the mountain slopes, it left a whitish encrustation, called travertine. The travertine deposits destroyed or covered the original desert varnish.
The travertine appears as a showy light-colored deposit along the base of the Santa Rosa Mountains, from La Quinta for several miles southeast along the shore of the present Salton Sea. In places, the travertine is several feet thick on the rock face. The sharp contrast of the light colored travertine against the reddish brown desert varnish causes the old shoreline to be highly visible from a considerable distance.
Travertine, or tufa, is a freshwater lime deposit. It is derived from fresh waters that have a high concentration of calcium carbonate, CaCO3, the material of sea shells. Freshwater algae use carbon dioxide in photosynthesis precipitating the lime. This usually occurs in shallow water where algae can grow in abundance on resistant rock surfaces.
Travertine Rock is a vivid reminder of old Lake Cahuilla. It is along Highway 86, near Desert Shores, on the northwest shore of the sea. Travertine Rock was a small islet of bedrock that projected above the lake's high water line. Below this line, the boulders are heavily crusted with pale brown travertine, from a few inches to three feet thick and appearing sponge-like.
Travertine Rock is connected to the Santa Rosa Mountain mass by a conspicuous saddle, or tombolo, rising 150 feet. Successive Lake Cahuilla shorelines were once visible on the saddle, but they have been destroyed by recent cultivation of the land.
Shell fossils from a brackish water environment are abundant on the valley floor. They are arranged in linear accumulations parallel to the old shoreline. As the shorelines retreated, enormous numbers of Pleistocene gastropods and pelecypods (mollusks) became stranded, leaving their shells in windrows that stretch for miles. These beaches and their shells are most pronounced along the northwest and eastern margins of the Salton Sea. They may be reached by several side roads west from Highway 86, in some places less than a quarter of a mile from the main highway.
From: Ancient Lake Cahuilla
FOR THREE MILLION YEARS, at least through all the years of the Pleistocene glacial age, the Colorado River worked to build its delta. By then, the delta had reached the western shore of the Gulf of California (the Sea of Cortez) creating a massive dam which excluded the sea from the northern reaches of the Gulf. Meandering at random across the ever-growing fan-shaped mass, the river changed its course constantly. For a while, the course would shift to the north, and the stream flowed into the isolated Salton basin, filling it with a large freshwater lake. Eventually, a river shift to the south to the Gulf of California would abandon the inland lake to evaporation and extinction.
As a result, the Salton basin has had a long history of alternately being occupied by a fresh water lake and being a dry, empty desert basin, all according to the random river flow, and the balance between inflow and evaporative loss. A lake would exist only when it was replenished by the river, a cycle that repeated itself countless times over hundreds of thousands of years.
There is abundant evidence that the basin was occupied by multiple lakes during this period. Wave-cut shorelines at various elevations are still preserved on the hillsides of the east and west margins of the present lake, the Salton Sea, showing that the basin was occupied intermittently as recently as a few hundred years ago. The last of the Pleistocene lakes to occupy the basin was Lake Cahuilla, identified on older maps as Lake Leconte.
Lake Cahuilla
Lake Cahuilla was possibly one of the largest lakes of the past. It was a huge freshwater body covering over 2,000 square miles to a depth of more than 300 feet. The lake was almost 100 miles long by 35 miles across at its widest point, extending from the delta in Mexico north to the vicinity of Indio. It was six times the size of the present Salton Sea. This ancient freshwater lake completely filled the Salton Basin to overflowing behind the natural delta-dam.
The muddy water of the Colorado River flowed into Lake Cahuilla for centuries. The rich soil of the Imperial and lower Coachella Valleys was built up from river silt deposited on the floor of the old lake. The thick accumulation of lakebed deposits is evidence of a long period of deposition.
The shoreline of the old lake is still visible at the base of the surrounding mountains. It averages about 40 feet above sea level, but varies from 25 to 50 feet elevation. The variability of elevation is thought to be due to subsidence of the basin floor.
Radiocarbon age-dating of charcoal and fish bones found interstratified in the lagoonal silts behind gravel bars suggests that the lake existed since before the year 1200. Further evidence discloses that about 900 years ago, while Lake Cahuilla was a young, vigorous freshwater lake, the Cahuilla Indians, generally thought to be connected to the Aztecs by language, appeared from the northeast.
With the first Spanish explorations in the 16th century, they found no lake in the Salton Basin. This suggests that Lake Cahuilla had evaporated completely by 1600, or about 400 years ago. Yet, these early Spanish records allude to Indian legends of the existence of a large body of water to the west. The Indians now living in the Coachella Valley have distinct legends to the effect that at some time in the past the valley was occupied by a large body of water.
Prof. Blake in his 1854 exploration report notes that the Indians told him of a time when a great body of water existed in which there were many fish and of the manner in which the water disappeared 'poco a poco' (little by little) until the lake became dry. The Indians now living in the desert put this event as far back as the lives of four or five very old men. (The year 1900 less four or five times 60 years would place the approximate time of its end at about the year 1600.)
Lake Cahuilla's end must have been rapid when it came. The lake had been sustained for centuries as the net inflow of river water balanced the loss by evaporation. But again, the river changed its course. Possibly there was an ancient flood caused by a surplus of melt water, or perhaps the river's own natural levees became so high to be unstable. Whatever the cause, the river changed its course to flow once again south into the Gulf of California, and the lake was abandoned.
When fresh river water was no longer supplied, evaporation became the dominant factor. The lake quickly wasted away, leaving beach deposits, travertine deposits, wave-cut cliffs, sand bars and other shoreline features as proof of its existence. In its final stages, the lake level appeared to have retreated in steps, as more than a dozen separate shorelines still appear in aerial photos of the western shore and the Coachella Canal between Niland and Mecca.
So it was that Lake Cahuilla disappeared, leaving a playa, a flat, extensive salt-encrusted mud flat, desolate and without vegetation. Typical of playas, the lake bed was a dry, smooth hard packed surface. When supplied with a little water from an infrequent rain, or perhaps some random inflow via the New River, the playa would temporarily become a huge pond, sometimes miles across but filled with only a few inches to a foot of water.
The travertine appears as a showy light-colored deposit along the base of the Santa Rosa Mountains, from La Quinta for several miles southeast along the shore of the present Salton Sea. In places, the travertine is several feet thick on the rock face. The sharp contrast of the light colored travertine against the reddish brown desert varnish causes the old shoreline to be highly visible from a considerable distance.
Travertine, or tufa, is a freshwater lime deposit. It is derived from fresh waters that have a high concentration of calcium carbonate, CaCO3, the material of sea shells. Freshwater algae use carbon dioxide in photosynthesis precipitating the lime. This usually occurs in shallow water where algae can grow in abundance on resistant rock surfaces.
Travertine Rock is a vivid reminder of old Lake Cahuilla. It is along Highway 86, near Desert Shores, on the northwest shore of the sea. Travertine Rock was a small islet of bedrock that projected above the lake's high water line. Below this line, the boulders are heavily crusted with pale brown travertine, from a few inches to three feet thick and appearing sponge-like.
Shell fossils from a brackish water environment are abundant on the valley floor. They are arranged in linear accumulations parallel to the old shoreline. As the shorelines retreated, enormous numbers of Pleistocene gastropods and pelecypods (mollusks) became stranded, leaving their shells in windrows that stretch for miles. These beaches and their shells are most pronounced along the northwest and eastern margins of the Salton Sea. They may be reached by several side roads west from Highway 86, in some places less than a quarter of a mile from the main highway.
Sapiens
Polymathematician
That's not an answer or a refutation, that's merely a dismissal, one that you are not qualified to issue.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I wouldn't recommend you telling a geologist that as it is done by them all the time. Much like flatter areas, stratigraphy still is evident in mountainous areas.
Sapiens
Polymathematician
There are over a million drill holes all over the world confirming the continuity of the geology we see at the surface. I personally was a geologist supervisor on drill rigs logging the strata on for over one hundred drill holes.