Spartan
Well-Known Member
The statement that Jesus is not God and Christ is God, are both correct statements and cannot be refuted.
Well I refuted those in several of my previous postings.
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The statement that Jesus is not God and Christ is God, are both correct statements and cannot be refuted.
The lies and heresies are yours and yours alone. Do you realize (or even care) how blasphemous the things you're promoting truly are? There isn't a single scripture you just quoted that in any way remotely implies Jesus being God, or God being triune in nature. What you have displayed is a profound ignorance of the very scriptures you have quoted. You ignore context, you blatantly distort or change what the verses actually say.......truly your dishonesty knows no bounds.
LOL, my nonsense. Sure. Sorry bud, but I can't and won't take credit for writing the Bible. The Bible teaches Jesus as a created being...
Not a chance. You screwed up that scripture too, as is your custom.
Nonsense. It's become quite apparent that your cult-like heresies are not in line with scripture, as I've documented.
I'll take that nonsense reply as an admission you are wrong. Good job!
You spew out nonsense at 100 mph.
Here's why your heretical translation is bogus:
Col. 1:15, "firstborn of all creation" | CARM.org
Context, context, context.
“...but surely, as it is written, “No man has seen God...”, Right?”
Here are the texts:
Exodus 33:20 KJB - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 Timothy 6:16 KJB - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 John 4:12 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:20 KJB - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
When considering such texts, the immediate context and the whole King James Bible context should be considered more carefully, for instance:
John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Please notice that John 1:18's KJB reference to “God” is speaking of the person of “the Father”, and yet even so, the text explicitly states that “the only begotten Son” is the person who appeared and “declared” God, the Father, and those who accepted Christ Jesus, have seen the character of God, the Father. John, even repeats this in John 6:46 KJB:
John 6:46 KJB - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Please notice, that even John 6:46 KJB is not all 'exclusive' of men having seen God, the Father, but explicitly gives the exception [“save he”] by saying, “save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” All in Christ Jesus, have indeed seen the Father, meaning His character, for Jesus said:
Matthew 11:27 KJB - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
John 14:7 KJB - If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 KJB - Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
In Exodus 33:20 KJB, the context reveals that Moses was not allowed to see the “face” of God in the fullness of His Glory, as in Exodus 33:23 KJB, so God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock, and passed by him, placing His hand over him, and Moses saw the back parts of God.
It is those who are not in Christ Jesus that have not seen God, the Father, since they have rejected His character in the person of His Son:
John 5:37 KJB - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 5:43 KJB - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
3 John 1:11 KJB - Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Context, context, context.
Various persons of the Old Testament [Genesis to Malachi] and of the New Testament [Matthew to Revelation] have seen and heard God, especially the Son, but even a few prophets have seen and heard the Father [in vision], and some have seen and heard the Holy Spirit in various forms:
Here are the texts:
Exodus 33:20 KJB - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 Timothy 6:16 KJB - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 John 4:12 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:20 KJB - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
When considering such texts, the immediate context and the whole King James Bible context should be considered more carefully, for instance:
John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Please notice that John 1:18's KJB reference to “God” is speaking of the person of “the Father”, and yet even so, the text explicitly states that “the only begotten Son” is the person who appeared and “declared” God, the Father, and those who accepted Christ Jesus, have seen the character of God, the Father. John, even repeats this in John 6:46 KJB:
John 6:46 KJB - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Please notice, that even John 6:46 KJB is not all 'exclusive' of men having seen God, the Father, but explicitly gives the exception [“save he”] by saying, “save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” All in Christ Jesus, have indeed seen the Father, meaning His character, for Jesus said:
Matthew 11:27 KJB - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
John 14:7 KJB - If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 KJB - Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
In Exodus 33:20 KJB, the context reveals that Moses was not allowed to see the “face” of God in the fullness of His Glory, as in Exodus 33:23 KJB, so God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock, and passed by him, placing His hand over him, and Moses saw the back parts of God.
It is those who are not in Christ Jesus that have not seen God, the Father, since they have rejected His character in the person of His Son:
John 5:37 KJB - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 5:43 KJB - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
3 John 1:11 KJB - Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Various persons of the Old Testament [Genesis to Malachi] and of the New Testament [Matthew to Revelation] have seen and heard God, especially the Son, but even a few prophets have seen and heard the Father [in vision], and some have seen and heard the Holy Spirit in various forms:
Having seen, heard and experienced the Father:
Daniel the prophet; Daniel 7:9-10,13:
John the Baptist, and others; Matthew 3:17, 17:5,6; Mark 1:11, 9:7; Luke 3:22, 9:35,36
Stephen; Acts 7:55
Peter, James and John the Apostles; 2 Peter 1:17,18
John the Apostle and prophet; Revelation 4:2,3,4,5,6,7,,8,9,10,11, 5:1,7,13,14
Having seen, heard and experienced the Son:
Adam and Eve; Genesis 3:8
Noah and sons; Genesis 6:13,22, 7:1,16, 8;15,16,21, 9:1,8
Abraham; Genesis 17:1,3,22, 18;1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33, 19:12,14,16,24 (Side note: Genesis 19:24 KJB reveals all three persons, “the LORD” the Son standing upon the earth, rains fire [symbolic of the Holy Spirit Himself between the two] from “the LORD”, the Father in Heaven.) Genesis 19:25,27,29; John 8:56,57
Isaac; Genesis 26:24
Jacob/Israel; Genesis 28:13, 32:24,25,26,27,28,29,30, 35:1,2,3,6,7,9,10,11 (Compare, “be fruitful and multiply” with that of commandment unto Abraham.), Genesis 35:12,13,14,15; Hosea 12:3,4,5
Job; Job 38:1 (See also: Job 38:2-41, 39:1-30, 40:1-24, 41:1-34 KJB.); Job 42:1,5,7,8
Moses, the messenger of the LORD, and the elders of Israel; Exodus 3:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,11,12,13,14,15,16,18, 4:1,5,24, 6:1,2,3, 24:9,10,11, 33:9,11,18,19,20,21,22,23, 34:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,28,32,34,35; Numbers 20:16; Deuteronomy 34:10; Acts 7:30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38
Aaron, Moses' brother and Highpriest; Exodus 4:27
Israel, the peoples, heard God's own voice from Heaven; Exodus 20:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22; Deuteronomy 4:11,12,13
Balaam, the mad prophet; Numbers 22:9,10,12,13,20,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,31,32,33,34,35,38; 2 Peter 2:16
Joshua, the son of Nun; Joshua 5:13,14,15
Compare:
Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Gideon, aka Jerubbaal; Judges 6:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,18,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27
Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson; Judges 13:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24
Samuel, the prophet and judge; 1 Samuel 3:10,21
David, the son of Jesse; 2 Samuel 24:16,17; 1 Chronicles 21:15,16,17,18,26,27,28,29,30; 2 Chronicles 3:1
Solomon, the son of David; 1 King 3:5, 9:2, 11:9; 2 Chronicles 7:12
Micaiah the prophet; 1 Kings 22:19,20,21,22,23; 2 Chronicles 18:18,19,20,21,22
Isaiah the prophet; 2 Kings 19:34,35; Isaiah 6:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13; John 12:41
Jeremiah the prophet; Jeremiah 1:4,5,6,7,8,9
Ezekiel the prophet; Ezekiel 1:1,26,27,28, 2:1, 10:1,2,3,4,5,18,19,20
Daniel the prophet; Daniel 7:13
John the Apostle and prophet; Revelation 1:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18, 5:6
Having seen, heard and experienced the Holy Spirit:
Gideon, aka Jerubbaal; Judges 6:34
Samson; Judges 13:25
John the Baptist; Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32,33
Jesus; Mark 1:12
Apostles and Disciples; Acts 2:3,4
Philip; Acts 8:29
Peter and others; Acts 10:19, 11:12,15
Paul; Acts 21:4
John the Apostle and prophet; Revelation 5:6, 22:17
I just produced passages which demonstrate that men have seen the Father, such as Daniel, John, even in vision, and they aren't the only ones, and men have heard directly the voice of the Father.Thus Jesus as Christ has declared that all we can know of God is Christ. ...
The Son took upon Himself the "form of a servant" (Philippians 2:7), and is thus "God manifest in the flesh":... But the flesh of Jesus is not God and Christ, ...
You'll have to define "Essence", but when you do, it will be mistaken, as the "nature" of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is not given in scripture, and is a mystery to all. Silence will be golden to you The Holy Ghost/Spirit, however, is an eternal Person/Being as scripture states, "he".... ... the Holy Spirit, is also not God in Essence. ...
Sounds like Jesuit theology to me, which vaporizes God (Genesis 1; Acts 5, etc) into nothing. You'll have to define "emanates". The Holy Ghost/Spirit is a Person/Being that is "sent" from God the Father, and so also the Son, as ambassador, in the name of Jesus:... The Holy Spirit enemates from God. ...
Simply reading scripture disproves the error of ecumenical Baha'i.... That is why Christ is the name we come to God Through, not the flesh of Jesus.
Regards Tony
Beats your Heretical posts all day long!ROFL......Carm.org. You're really struggling. So cute.
They are distinct individuals. They are three Persons/Beings. "Trinity" (though several definitions exist) is generally erroneous (such as Roman Catholicism dogma of it)....
Why is there a distinction between Father and Son? The Trinity makes no sense to me. I would say they are distinct individuals.
That is a slight confusion of natures. Deity's and mankind's.I don't buy into The Bible, but if I had to pick solely from reading these passages I would decide that Jesus was the very first born of the Holy Spirit and not God the Father. Thus created from the Holy Spirit. From the Father's bosom.
If Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit that would make Jesus of Highest Character and perhaps equal to God in character, but far less in experience than God. ...
Beats your Heretical posts all day long!
I just produced passages which demonstrate that men have seen the Father, such as Daniel, John, even in vision, and they aren't the only ones, and men have heard directly the voice of the Father.
Jesus is God (Yeshua JEHOVAH, the person of the Son), is deity by nature (in the form of God; Philippians 2:6), see the texts which I already produced in this thread, such as Genesis 19:24, etc.
Jesus is Immanuel/Emmanuel, "God with us" (Numbers 14:9; Judges 6:13; 2 Chronicles 13:12, 32:8; Psalms 46:7,11; Isaiah 7:14, 8:8,10; Haggai 1:13, 2:4; Matthew 1:23, 28:20; John 7:33, 13:33). Jesus is called "Christ" (Matthew 1:21), "the Christ" (Matthew 16:20, 26:63; John 20:31).
"Christ/Messiah" just means anointed (Psalms 45:7; Isaiah 11:2-5, 42:1-4, 59:21; Luke 4:18,41). The Son is the anointed, even from eternity (Luke 2:11,26).
The Holy Ghost is a differing Person/Being than the Son and the Father.
The Son took upon Himself the "form of a servant" (Philippians 2:7), and is thus "God manifest in the flesh":
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
His glory was mostly veiled, though seen on several occasions:
Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus' flesh (of men) is now glorified and sits at the right hand of the Father, on His throne. It (Jesus' flesh of men) is glorified, eternally. He is the God-man.
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
You'll have to define "Essence", but when you do, it will be mistaken, as the "nature" of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is not given in scripture, and is a mystery to all. Silence will be golden to you The Holy Ghost/Spirit, however, is an eternal Person/Being as scripture states, "he".
Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.
Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Revelation 12:4 KJB], “child” [Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB], “holy thing” [Luke 1:35 KJB] and “holy child” [Acts 4:27,30 KJB], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10 KJB] and masculine.
The Father in Heaven, who indeed is a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; Job 13:8 KJB], is also given neuter terms, such as "Ancient of Days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB] and "Majesty" [Hebrews 1:3, 8:1 KJB], "I AM", "the living" [Matthew 16:16, 26:63; John 6:69; Acts 14:15 KJB], "Maker" [Job 36:3; Hosea 8:14; Hebrews 11:10 KJB], "Creator" [Romans 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19 KJB], and even referred to as "it" connected with "this voice", and "angel" (message) [John 12:29 KJB], etc, etc.
The wicked angels, also "persons" (fallen, contrasted to unfallen) [Luke 15:7 KJB], are also called “it” [Luke 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc. KJB], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine.
Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc.
Do not be deceived by the word "Powers" into thinking you are dealing with a mere force, since the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as well as unfallen [as Gabriel and legions of Light] and fallen angels [as Lucifer and legions of Lie-ght], etc are all designated as "powers", each whom are living persons, living beings, see
Heavenly “powers” (simply means an 'authority', see also 1 Peter 3:22 KJB, "authorities"):
Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 6:12 KJB - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Titus 3:1 KJB - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
1 Peter 3:22 KJB - Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
The Holy Spirit wills and is omniscient:
1 Corinthians 12:11 KJB - But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
They are distinct individuals. They are three Persons/Beings. "Trinity" (though several definitions exist) is generally erroneous (such as Roman Catholicism dogma of it).
The Father is the Father, while the Son is the Son. That is their distinction and relation. There has eternally been that distinction. The Son is the "Amen" of the Father. The Son rejoices in doing the Will of His Father. The Father says, Let's do this, and the Son says, Here am I my Father; to carry it out with the Father.
It is a demonstration of the eternality of Family, the nature of Godhead (not the same word as 'God') in character.
I don't buy into The Bible, but if I had to pick solely from reading these passages I would decide that Jesus was the very first born of the Holy Spirit and not God the Father. Thus created from the Holy Spirit. From the Father's bosom.
If Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit that would make Jesus of Highest Character and perhaps equal to God in character, but far less in experience than God.
Why is there a distinction between Father and Son? The Trinity makes no sense to me. I would say they are distinct individuals.