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Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.
 

calm

Active Member
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.
No Jesus is not "a God" but God. Jesus is "the Word of God", he is one with the Father.

Here are some biblical passages that clearly show that Jesus is God Himself.

God is the Lord of Lords(Deuteronomy 10:17)=Jesus is the Lord of Lords(Revelation 19:16)
There can't be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Isaiah 44:6)=Jesus is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Revelation 1:17)
There cannot be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the husband (Isaiah 54:5)=Jesus is the husband (2 Corinthians 11:2)
Two different persons cannot marry the same woman.

God is the only Saviour(Isaiah 43:11)=Jesus is the Saviour(Luke 2:11)
God is the only rock (Isaiah 44:8; Psalm 18:31)=Jesus is the rock(1 Corinthians 10:4)
God will be the pierced(Zechariah 12:10)=Jesus is the pierced(crucifixion)
For God the way is prepared (Isaiah 40:3)=For Jesus the way is prepared (Mark 1:3 ; Matthew 3:3)
Jesus and YHUH are God (Psalm 45:7-8) =Jesus and YHUH are God (Hebrews 1:8-9)
God created the world (Genesis 1:1)=All things were created by Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus(Romans 11:36) (Colossians 1:16-17)
Jesus is God and the father (Isaiah 9:6)
Jesus is the true God (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
Thomas calls Jesus God (John 20:28)
Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No Jesus is not "a God" but God. Jesus is "the Word of God", he is one with the Father.

Here are some biblical passages that clearly show that Jesus is God Himself.

God is the Lord of Lords(Deuteronomy 10:17)=Jesus is the Lord of Lords(Revelation 19:16)
There can't be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Isaiah 44:6)=Jesus is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Revelation 1:17)
There cannot be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the husband (Isaiah 54:5)=Jesus is the husband (2 Corinthians 11:2)
Two different persons cannot marry the same woman.

God is the only Saviour(Isaiah 43:11)=Jesus is the Saviour(Luke 2:11)
God is the only rock (Isaiah 44:8; Psalm 18:31)=Jesus is the rock(1 Corinthians 10:4)
God will be the pierced(Zechariah 12:10)=Jesus is the pierced(crucifixion)
For God the way is prepared (Isaiah 40:3)=For Jesus the way is prepared (Mark 1:3 ; Matthew 3:3)
Jesus and YHUH are God (Psalm 45:7-8) =Jesus and YHUH are God (Hebrews 1:8-9)
God created the world (Genesis 1:1)=All things were created by Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus(Romans 11:36) (Colossians 1:16-17)
Jesus is God and the father (Isaiah 9:6)
Jesus is the true God (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
Thomas calls Jesus God (John 20:28)
Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
This has very little to do w/ the OP.

At one time or another, all of your points have been answered, refuted, and debunked.

Some info:
The Trinity Doctrine

But even if they hadn’t....if Jesus was God....why haven’t Trinitarians obeyed Him? Why haven’t they ‘loved their brothers (John 13:34-35)’, or even ‘loved their enemies (Matthew 5:44)’?
If Trinitarians had the truth about Who God is, they would be blessed with His spirit, the fruitage of which includes love and peace. — Galatians 5:22-23

But throughout the centuries, in times of war, Trinitarians have often killed Trinitarians despite their spiritual brotherhood, preferring their (worldly) national heritage over their other more precious brotherhood.
Titus 1:16 & 1 John 3:10-15 applies to them.

IMO, it’s best to remove yourself from them, my cousin. Their actions speak louder than words.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.

In that time a powerful man such as the Roman leader could become the will of the divine and at death become a divinity. I suspect that such self aggrandizement may have been the criticism being leveled at Jesus here.

Trinity theology was a later development with its seeds being sown in various Biblical passages. If you read the Gospels mindful if the order in which the books were written you can see the gradual development of Jesus' divinity from his baptism to his having always been divine.

Here Bart Ehrman briefly explains the development through the gospels of Jesus' divinity through time as shown in the gospels:

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-as-god-in-the-synoptics-for-members/
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.

Hi @Hockeycowboy

I like the logical and rational approach you are making to the greek grammar in this specific case. While detractors to this point are free to argue context, if they want, I agree with you that the grammar itself reads "....you make yourself a God."
.

While I think the Jews could certainly have meant either the God of the Old Testament, or a God, I very much agree with you that, Like John 1:1, John 10:33 is another example of a phrase where one must argue context rather than grammar if they disagree with your interpretation. (Out of all of the early manuscripts, I think only p66 uses the article. This indicates that at least some of the ancient bible translators made the same distinction you make in the O.P....)

Good journey Hockycowboy

Clear
τωειειω
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.

I believe if they thought that, they were in error. However I don't believe you could read their minds which is basically what you are doing.
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.
Actually, whether the Greek's lack or providing of an indefinite article doesn't make the case. It's always context of the Greek. Numerous examples, but it would be a waste of time. Instead, let' look at the actual English context and see how Jesus explained:

John 10:24 KJB - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 10:25 KJB - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 KJB - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.

This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

John 10:31 KJB - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25 KJB, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:57 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 KJB - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10 KJB], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

John 10:32 KJB - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Genesis 3:5; Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6 KJB], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11 KJB], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "... God ..."

[1B] "... he ..."

[2A] "... standeth in ..."

[2B] "... judgeth among ..."

[3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

[3B] "... the gods ..."
Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "I have said ..."

[1B] "... and ..."

[2A] "... Ye are ..."

[2B] "... all of you are …"

[3A] "... gods …"

[3B] "... children of the most High."
Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turning away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

John 10:36 KJB - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30 KJB, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33 KJB], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7 KJB], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21 KJB], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15 KJB], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21 KJB, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in every way to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessening the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

John 10:37 KJB - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 KJB - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 KJB - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.
 
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Crosstian

Baring the Cross
So, when Jesus said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me”, Jesus was referring to...Himself?

That makes no sense.
No, He (Jesus) was referring to the Persons/Beings of the Father (who turned away) and the Holy Ghost/Spirit (forsaken), which is why scripture says:

Isa_63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

etc.
 
No Jesus is not "a God" but God. Jesus is "the Word of God", he is one with the Father.

Here are some biblical passages that clearly show that Jesus is God Himself.

God is the Lord of Lords(Deuteronomy 10:17)=Jesus is the Lord of Lords(Revelation 19:16)
There can't be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Isaiah 44:6)=Jesus is the First (the origin) and the Last (the goal) (Revelation 1:17)
There cannot be two different persons claiming this title.

God is the husband (Isaiah 54:5)=Jesus is the husband (2 Corinthians 11:2)
Two different persons cannot marry the same woman.

God is the only Saviour(Isaiah 43:11)=Jesus is the Saviour(Luke 2:11)
God is the only rock (Isaiah 44:8; Psalm 18:31)=Jesus is the rock(1 Corinthians 10:4)
God will be the pierced(Zechariah 12:10)=Jesus is the pierced(crucifixion)
For God the way is prepared (Isaiah 40:3)=For Jesus the way is prepared (Mark 1:3 ; Matthew 3:3)
Jesus and YHUH are God (Psalm 45:7-8) =Jesus and YHUH are God (Hebrews 1:8-9)
God created the world (Genesis 1:1)=All things were created by Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus(Romans 11:36) (Colossians 1:16-17)
Jesus is God and the father (Isaiah 9:6)
Jesus is the true God (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
Thomas calls Jesus God (John 20:28)
Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)

Not a single one of your quoted verses in any way intimates that Jesus is God. Jesus' own recorded words in the Bible (such as his lengthy prayer at John chapter 17) is enough to show that he isn't God. Jesus' own closest apostles knew him not to be God, but God's Son (Matthew 16:16). The scriptural evidence, including the testimony of Jesus and his apostles, bears out the fact that Jesus is always subordinate to God......separate and distinct. Jesus himself was created by God (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14).
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If Jesus is THE GOD then who is THE GOD whom he calls "MY GOD"?

I believe it is Himself.

That is where the explanations of Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah clear this up.

The Messengers of God, if we use the example of Jesus Christ, are all we can know of God, thus to us all praise of God is to them, they are the 'Self of God' amongst us.

At the same time, that are not God in Essence, and Christ explains this as the 'Father is Greater than I'.

But Christ's mention of the Father is again only of Christ's own potential, as we can not know God. At the same time it is a prophecy that He will return as the Father. 'The Father and I are One'.

We worship One God, who came as many Names as the Holy Spirit, the first, the last.


Regards Tony
 

calm

Active Member
Jesus himself was created by God (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14).
Neither of the two verses says that Jesus was created.

About Colossians 1:15.
The title "Firstborn of all creation" does not stand for the "first created being", as you believe, but for the Rank / Position. It means that Jesus is the "King(firstborn) of all creation".

Here is an example: God calls Ephraim his "first-born", although Ephraim is the younger of Joseph's two sons.
Genesis 41:51-52 KJV
And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, [said he], hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.


Jeremiah 31:9 KJV
... for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”


As you can see, the term "first-born" has several meanings, one can interpret it literally or as a title.

For more information: What does it mean that Jesus is the firstborn of creation? | CARM.org

(f the Bible wants to emphasize the chronological order, it uses the term "firstfruit". For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:20, Jesus is called the "firstfruit of the departed")

About Revelation 3:14.
The Greek word "arche" can also mean "origin".
So if it means that Jesus is "the beginning of creation" then it means that Jesus is "the origin of creation". For more information: Revelation 3:14, the beginning of creation | CARM.org
The Father also calls himself "The Beginning". Once in the Old Testament (Isaiah 44:6) and once in the New Testament. (Revelation 21:6)
But Jesus is not only the beginning(First/Alpha) but also the end(Last/Omega). (Revelation 1:17)(Revelation 22:13)
You know now that the title "the beginning" means to be the "origin". But what does the title "the end" mean?
To be "the end" means to be "the goal". God is the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, from him we have all come and to him one will return, for he is our origin and our goal.

So these verses not only contradict your view, but also show that Jesus himself is the Creator/God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not a single one of your quoted verses in any way intimates that Jesus is God. Jesus' own recorded words in the Bible (such as his lengthy prayer at John chapter 17) is enough to show that he isn't God. Jesus' own closest apostles knew him not to be God, but God's Son (Matthew 16:16). The scriptural evidence, including the testimony of Jesus and his apostles, bears out the fact that Jesus is always subordinate to God......separate and distinct. Jesus himself was created by God (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14).

Jesus is created from the Holy Spirit, that is the Metephor of the virgin birth.

Jesus is The 'Anointed One' Christ, created of God, but is not God in Essence.

This is how Baha'u'llah explains it, but we can also see it is how Christ 'Is';

“... Naught is seen in My temple but the Temple of God, and in My beauty but His Beauty, and in My being but His Being, and in My self but His Self, and in My movement but His Movement, and in My acquiescence but His Acquiescence, and in My pen but His Pen, the Mighty, the All-Praised. There hath not been in My soul but the Truth, and in Myself naught could be seen but God.” “The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend.”…... "

Regards Tony
 
Neither of the two verses says that Jesus was created.

About Colossians 1:15.
The title "Firstborn of all creation" does not stand for the "first created being", as you believe, but for the Rank / Position. It means that Jesus is the "King(firstborn) of all creation".

Here is an example: God calls Ephraim his "first-born", although Ephraim is the younger of Joseph's two sons.
Genesis 41:51-52 KJV
And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, [said he], hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.


Jeremiah 31:9 KJV
... for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”


As you can see, the term "first-born" has several meanings, one can interpret it literally or as a title.

For more information: What does it mean that Jesus is the firstborn of creation? | CARM.org

(f the Bible wants to emphasize the chronological order, it uses the term "firstfruit". For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:20, Jesus is called the "firstfruit of the departed")

About Revelation 3:14.
The Greek word "arche" can also mean "origin".
So if it means that Jesus is "the beginning of creation" then it means that Jesus is "the origin of creation". For more information: Revelation 3:14, the beginning of creation | CARM.org
The Father also calls himself "The Beginning". Once in the Old Testament (Isaiah 44:6) and once in the New Testament. (Revelation 21:6)
But Jesus is not only the beginning(First/Alpha) but also the end(Last/Omega). (Revelation 1:17)(Revelation 22:13)
You know now that the title "the beginning" means to be the "origin". But what does the title "the end" mean?
To be "the end" means to be "the goal". God is the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, from him we have all come and to him one will return, for he is our origin and our goal.

So these verses not only contradict your view, but also show that Jesus himself is the Creator/God.


In spite of all that nonsensical spin you put on the scriptures in order to deny what it says, its words stand clear. Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation". It's the "of" part that associates him with the works of creation, since he was the first of God's actual creations. Hence, he is the "only-begotten" Son of God, the only part of creation handled directly by God himself.

And for Revelation 3:14, Jesus being the "beginning of the creation by God" merely bolsters what was already stated earlier in the scriptures at Colossians 1:15, namely that Jesus was the very first of God's creative works.

So the verses I mentioned stand as is. Your spin on them does nothing more than offer evidence that you do not care to take the scriptures as written. Jesus is not God. Never has been, never will be.
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
... Jesus himself was created by God (Colossians 1:15,....
Jesus is the only begotten (never says created anywhere) Son of the Father. This is true. Yet Jesus is also called "God" in scripture (OT-NT; ex: Genesis 17:1; Hebrews 1:10, 13:4,6), not identifying Himself as the Person/Being of the Father, but that of the Person/Being of the Son, and we can get to those in a bit.

As Jesus is above all creation, that makes Him God by definition.

Where in Colossians 1:15-19 is Jesus said to be created?

Col 1:15 ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως
Col 1:16 οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα τα εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται
Col 1:17 και αυτος εστιν προ παντων και τα παντα εν αυτω συνεστηκεν
Col 1:18 και αυτος εστιν η κεφαλη του σωματος της εκκλησιας ος εστιν αρχη πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων ινα γενηται εν πασιν αυτος πρωτευων
Col 1:19 οτι εν αυτω ευδοκησεν παν το πληρωμα κατοικησαι

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:15 qui est imago Dei invisibilis primogenitus omnis creaturae
Col 1:16 quia in ipso condita sunt universa in caelis et in terra visibilia et invisibilia sive throni sive dominationes sive principatus sive potestates omnia per ipsum et in ipso creata sunt
Col 1:17 et ipse est ante omnes et omnia in ipso constant
Col 1:18 et ipse est caput corporis ecclesiae qui est principium primogenitus ex mortuis ut sit in omnibus ipse primatum tenens
Col 1:19 quia in ipso conplacuit omnem plenitudinem habitare

Col 1:15 welcher ist das Ebenbild des unsichtbaren Gottes, der Erstgeborene vor allen Kreaturen.
Col 1:16 Denn durch ihn ist alles geschaffen, was im Himmel und auf Erden ist, das Sichtbare und das Unsichtbare, es seien Throne oder Herrschaften oder Fürstentümer oder Obrigkeiten; es ist alles durch ihn und zu ihm geschaffen.
Col 1:17 Und er ist vor allem, und es besteht alles in ihm.
Col 1:18 Und er ist das Haupt des Leibes, nämlich der Gemeinde; er, welcher ist der Anfang und der Erstgeborene von den Toten, auf daß er in allen Dingen den Vorrang habe.
Col 1:19 Denn es ist das Wohlgefallen gewesen, daß in ihm alle Fülle wohnen sollte

Col 1:15 El cual es la imagen del Dios invisible, el primogénito de toda criatura.
Col 1:16 Porque por él fueron criadas todas las cosas que están en los cielos, y que están en la tierra, visibles é invisibles; sean tronos, sean dominios, sean principados, sean potestades; todo fué criado por él y para él.
Col 1:17 Y él es antes de todas las cosas, y por él todas las cosas subsisten:
Col 1:18 Y él es la cabeza del cuerpo que es la iglesia; él que es el principio, el primogénito de los muertos, para que en todo tenga el primado.
Col 1:19 Por cuanto agradó al Padre que en él habitase toda plenitud,

Col 1:15 C'est lui qui est l'image du Dieu invisible, le premier-né de toutes les créatures.
Col 1:16 Car c'est en lui qu'ont été créées toutes choses dans les cieux et sur la terre, les visibles et les invisibles, soit les trônes, soit les dominations, soit les principautés, soit les puissances. Tout a été créé par lui et pour lui.
Col 1:17 Il est avant toutes choses, et toutes choses subsistent par lui.
Col 1:18 Et c'est lui qui est la tête du corps de l'Église; il est le commencement, le premier-né d'entre les morts, afin qu'il tienne le premier rang en toutes choses.
Col 1:19 Car il a plu à Dieu de faire habiter toute plénitude en lui;

Col 1:15 O ia foi ua tusa ma le Atua e le vaaia, o le ulumatua o mea uma lava ua faia;
Col 1:16 Auā na faia e ia o mea uma lava, o mea i le lagi ma mea i le lalolagi, o mea o vaaia ma mea e le o vaaia, o nofoālii, ma alii, ma alii sili, ma faipule; na faia e ia mea uma lava, na faia foi mo ia;
Col 1:17 O ia foi o le uluai o mea uma lava, o loo faatumauina foi mea uma lava ia te ia;
Col 1:18 O le ulu foi o ia o le tino, o le ekalesia lea; o le amataga foi o ia, o le ulumatua o e ua oti, ina ia fai o ia ma faasilisili i mea uma lava.
Col 1:19 Auā ua finagalo le Tamā ia mau i totonu ia te ia le tumu atoatoa;

It doesn't, not in English, nor koine Greek, nor Latin, nor German, nor Spanish, nor French, nor Samoan, nor any language I can find. The WTS had to create their own NWT English from their own dogma here by adding words, not present in the text, and not found in any known extant manuscripts, in any known language. In other words, the NWT/WTS have no evidence in history for their claim. Even those so-called ECF (easily confused fellows) when citing it, do not add the words "other", and neither do any of the Commentaries of time past (like Erasmus; Geneva) to present times (John Gill, Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, John Wesley, etc). Even the WTS/KIT shows that there is no koine Greek authority for additional words "other x 4"- https://ia902707.us.archive.org/3/i...Kingdom_Interlinear-Greek_Scriptures_1969.pdf

Even the NWT identifies The Son as Jesus JEHOVAH:

Hosea 1:4-7 NWT - 4 Then Jehovah said to him: “Name him Jezʹre·el,* for in a little while I will hold an accounting against the house of Jeʹhui for the acts of bloodshed of Jezʹre·el, and I will put an end to the royal rule of the house of Israel.j 5 In that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley* of Jezʹre·el.” 6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And He told him: “Name her Lo-ru·haʹmah,* for I will no longer show mercyk to the house of Israel, because I will certainly drive them away.l 7 But I will show mercy to the house of Judah,m and I will save them by Jehovah their God;n I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”o - [NWT]

Sidenote: In the NWT reference 'bible', in vs 6, "He*" "*He - Jehovah."

JEHOVAH said, "... I ["JEHOVAH ... God", vs. 4,6] will save them by JEHOVAH their God [vs. 7], ..."

That's two Persons/Beings called JEHOVAH, with the second even called "God" by the first JEHOVAH.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.
Another possibility is that it isn't an unusual claim or is not blasphemous at the time. The term 'God' has no perfect equivalent in the Hebrew, which I conclude from the fact that it comes from a Hebrew word translated multiple ways in English. His audience are all in God's image as sons of Adam. Moses is called a god to Pharoah, and Aaron is his prophet to pharoah. The Hebrew term for judge is 'El', and its the same word used for gods and for angels. Actually they may not before the writing of the NT even have a distinct concept of God like we do. Our term for God comes from 'Good' and is influenced by Germanic thought, and the Greek term is 'Theos' and comes from Grecian thought. If he were to use the term 'El' untranslated he'd not be doing anything wrong necessarily. Using the term theos may also not be so problematic as we think.
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
In spite of all that nonsensical spin you put on the scriptures in order to deny what it says, its words stand clear. Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation"....
Let's deal with the "firstborn" stuff:

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses

[12-A] Firstborn?

The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.​

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.​

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.​

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief;)

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
In spite of all that nonsensical spin you put on the scriptures in order to deny what it says, its words stand clear. Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation"....
Firstborn, further:

Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created using that “firstborn” text?
 
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