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Featured Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Hockeycowboy, Oct 28, 2019.

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  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    The scriptures, including Proverbs 8, are all about Jesus:

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.​

    So, when the Scripture says:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    Jeremiah 29:11 KJB - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

    Jeremiah 29:12 KJB - Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14 KJB - And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

    King Solomon had Christ Jesus in Him:

    1 Kings 3:28 KJB - And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.​

    Other texts, on the Everlasting Gospel, which is Christ Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, and in us:

    1 Corinthians 1:21 KJB - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    1 Corinthians 2:7 KJB - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Revelation 10:7 KJB - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    What does it mean to “despise Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Psalms 14:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Psalms 53:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

    Proverbs 30:9 KJB - Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

    Isaiah 53:3 KJB - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

    Proverbs 1:20 KJB - They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

    Isaiah 5:24 KJB - Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.​
     
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  2. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    What does it mean “to know Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:2 KJB - To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

    John 17:3 KJB - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Proverbs 1:3 KJB - To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

    Luke 20:1 KJB - And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

    Psalms 86:11 KJB - Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

    John 8:2 KJB - And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    Isaiah 28:9 KJB - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

    Isaiah 28:6 KJB - For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

    Micah 4:2 KJB - And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    John 6:45 KJB - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    1 Thessalonians 4:9 KJB - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

    Psalm 34:8 KJB - O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

    Psalm 34:9 KJB - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

    Psalm 34:10 KJB - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good [thing].

    Psalm 34:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

    Psalm 34:12 KJB - What man [is he that] desireth life, [and] loveth [many] days, that he may see good?

    Psalm 34:13 KJB - Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

    Psalm 34:14 KJB - Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

    Psalm 34:15 KJB - The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.​

    So, when the Scripture says:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    Jeremiah 29:11 KJB - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

    Jeremiah 29:12 KJB - Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14 KJB - And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

    Seek the LORD/Wisdom while He may be found:


    Proverbs 1:28 KJB - Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

    Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

    Isaiah 45:19 KJB - I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Isaiah 51:1 KJB - Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

    Isaiah 55:6 KJB - Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

    Isaiah 58:2 KJB - Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Amos 5:4 KJB - For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

    Malachi 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    John 7:34 KJB - Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

    John 7:36 KJB - What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

    John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    John 12:35 KJB - Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

    John 13:33 KJB - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

    John 18:8 KJB - Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:​

    There are some that sought to kill Him who is Wisdom, they despised Knowledge and Instruction, hateful of Prudence:

    John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    John 8:40 KJB - But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

    Wisdom in the Heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory:

    Proverbs 2:9 KJB - When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

    Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

    Happy is the man that finds Christ:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.​
     
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  3. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Wisdom is a Person, not "personified".

    Here are the primary words that are pointed to by those advocating the errors [such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Arians, others and those teaching the “two beings” and “three personalities”], but they all misunderstand them, as they grieve the person/being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

    "possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

    קנה ; qânâh

    Total KJB Occurrences: 86

    buy, 24

    Genesis 47:19; Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 22:11, 25:15,44-45 (2); Deuteronomy 28:68; Ruth 4:4-5 (2),8; 2 Samuel 24:21,24; 2 Kings 12:12, 22:6; 1 Chronicles 21:24; 2 Chronicles 34:11; Proverbs 23:23; Jeremiah 32:7-8 (4),25,44; Amos 8:6​

    bought, 21


    Genesis 33:19, 39:1, 47:20,22-23 (2), 49:30, 50:13; Leviticus 25:28,30,50, 27:24; Deuteronomy 32:6; Joshua 24:32; Ruth 4:9; 2 Samuel 12:3, 24:24; 1 Kings 16:24; Nehemiah 5:16; Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 32:9,43​

    get, 9


    Proverbs 4:5 (2),7 (2), 17:16 (3); Jeremiah 19:1 (2)​

    purchased, 5


    Genesis 25:10; Exodus 15:16; Ruth 4:10; Psalms 74:2, 78:54​

    buyer, 3


    Proverbs 20:14; Isaiah 24:2; Ezekiel 7:12​

    getteth, 3


    Proverbs 15:32, 18:15, 19:8​

    got, 3


    Ecclesiastes 2:7; Jeremiah 13:2,4​

    possessed, 3


    Psalms 139:13; Proverbs 8:22; Jeremiah 32:15​

    buyest, 2


    Leviticus 25:14; Ruth 4:5​

    possessor, 2


    Genesis 14:19,22​

    attain, 1


    Proverbs 1:5​

    cattle, 1


    Zechariah 13:5 (2)​

    getting, 1


    Proverbs 4:7​

    gotten, 1


    Genesis 4:1​

    jealousy, 1


    Ezekiel 8:3​

    keep, 1


    Zechariah 13:5​

    owner, 1


    Isaiah 1:3​

    possessors, 1


    Zechariah 11:5​

    recover, 1


    Isaiah 11:11​

    redeemed, 1


    Nehemiah 5:8​

    verily, 1


    1 Chronicles 21:24​

    The subject, “me”, of that which is “possessed” of “the LORD” is “wisdom” [Proverbs 8:1,11,12,14 KJB].

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.​

    The text of Proverbs 3:19 KJB, is in perfect parallel with Proverbs 8:22,30 KJB, in that the Father “by Jesus” made all things:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit, for instance:

    Psalms 139:13 KJB - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

    Joshua 21:43 KJB - And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

    Jeremiah 32:23 - And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

    John 14:10 KJB - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14:11 KJB - Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son:

    Genesis 22:8 KJB - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    John 1:29 KJB - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    John 1:36 KJB - And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

    1 Peter 1:19 KJB - But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    2 Samuel 12:3 KJB - But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.​
     
  4. THE Art Vandelay

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    Doesn't matter how much blather you post, you're wrong.
     
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  5. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Wisdom is a Person, not "personified":

    "set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

    נסך ; nâsak

    Total KJB Occurrences: 26

    poured, 10

    Genesis 35:14; Numbers 28:7; 2 Samuel 23:16; 2 Kings 16:13; 1 Chronicles 11:18; Isaiah 29:10; Jeremiah 19:13, 32:29, 44:19; Ezekiel 20:28​

    pour, 6

    Exodus 30:9; Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19 (3),25​

    cover, 4

    Exodus 25:29, 37:16; Numbers 4:7; Isaiah 30:1​

    offer, 2

    Hosea 9:4 (2)​

    set, 2

    Psalms 2:6, Pro 8:23​

    melteth, 1

    Isaiah 40:19​

    molten, 1

    Isaiah 44:10​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King:

    Psalms 2:2 KJB - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    Psalms 2:6 KJB - Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    Psalms 2:7 KJB - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Psalms 2:8 KJB - Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    Psalms 2:12 KJB - Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.​
     
  6. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Wisdom is a Person, not "personified":

    "brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

    חיל / חוּל ; chûl / chı̂yl

    Total KJB Occurrences: 68

    pain, 6

    Isaiah 13:8, 26:17-18 (2); Jeremiah 30:23; Ezekiel 30:16; Micah 4:10​

    formed, 5

    Deuteronomy 32:18; Job 26:5,13; Psalms 90:2; Proverbs 26:10​

    forth, 4

    Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10, 66:8​

    brought, 3

    Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10​

    pained, 3

    Joel 2:4-6 (3)​

    calve, 2

    Job 39:1; Psalms 29:9​

    fall, 2

    Jeremiah 23:19, 30:23​

    fear, 2

    1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 96:9​

    grieved, 2

    Esther 4:4; Jeremiah 5:3​

    grievous, 2

    Psalms 10:5; Jeremiah 23:19​

    shaketh, 2

    Psalms 29:8 (2)​

    stayed, 2

    Genesis 8:10; Lamentations 4:6​

    travail, 2

    Isaiah 23:4, 54:1​

    travailed, 2

    Isaiah 66:7-8 (2)​

    tremble, 2

    Psalms 114:7; Jeremiah 5:22​

    trembled, 2

    Psalms 97:4; Habakkuk 3:10​

    wounded, 2

    1 Chronicles 10:3 (2)​

    abide, 1

    Hosea 11:6​

    afraid, 1

    Psalms 77:16​

    anguish, 1

    Deuteronomy 2:25​

    bare, 1

    Isaiah 51:2​

    bring, 1

    Isaiah 66:8​

    dance, 1

    Judges 21:21​

    danced, 1

    Judges 21:23​

    driveth, 1

    Proverbs 25:23 (2)​

    great, 1

    Ezekiel 30:16​

    grievously, 1

    Jeremiah 23:19​

    hope, 1

    Lamentations 3:26​

    look, 1

    Job 20:21​

    made, 1

    Job 15:7​

    patiently, 1

    Psalms 37:7 (2)​

    rest, 1

    2 Samuel 3:29​

    shapen, 1

    Psalms 51:5​

    sorrow, 1

    Jeremiah 51:29​

    sorrowful, 1

    Zechariah 9:5​

    tarried, 1

    Judges 3:25​

    travaileth, 1

    Job 15:20​

    trust, 1

    Job 35:14​

    wait, 1

    Psalms 37:7​

    waited, 1

    Micah 1:12​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees:

    Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​
     
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  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Wisdom is a Person, not "personified":

    "him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

    אָמוֹן ; 'âmôn

    Total KJB occurrences: 1

    him, as one brought up [with him], 1

    Proverbs 8:30​

    The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

    Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

    The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son? See below:

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Hebrews 10:8 KJB - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    Hebrews 10:9 KJB - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​
     
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  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Wisdom is a Person, not "personified":

    The word “'âmônProverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539,

    אמן ; 'âman

    Total KJB Occurrences: 110

    believed, 21

    Genesis 15:6, 45:26; Exodus 14:31 (2); Numbers 20:12; Deuteronomy 9:23; 1 Samuel 27:12; 1 Kings 10:7; 2 Chronicles 9:6; Job 29:24; Psalms 27:13, 78:22,32, 106:12,24, 116:10, 119:66; Isaiah 53:1; Jeremiah 40:14; Lamentations 4:12; Jonah 3:5​

    faithful, 20

    Numbers 12:7; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Samuel 2:35, 22:14; 2 Samuel 20:19; Nehemiah 9:8, 13:13; Psalms 12:1, 31:23, 89:37, 101:6; Proverbs 25:13 (2), 27:6; Isaiah 1:21,26, 8:2, 49:7; Jeremiah 42:5; Hosea 11:12​

    believe, 19

    Exodus 4:1,5, 19:8-9 (4); Numbers 14:11; Deuteronomy 1:32; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chronicles 20:20 (2), 32:15; Job 9:16, 39:12; Proverbs 26:25; Isaiah 43:9-10 (2); Jeremiah 12:6; Habakkuk 1:5​

    sure, 11

    1 Samuel 2:35, 25:28; 1 Kings 11:38; Job 24:22; Psalms 19:7, 93:5, 111:7; Isaiah 22:23,25, 33:16, 55:3​

    established, 7

    1 Samuel 3:20; 2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Chronicles 17:23-24 (2); 2 Chronicles 1:9, 20:20; Isaiah 7:9​

    brought, 5

    2 Kings 10:1; Esther 2:7,20; Proverbs 8:30; Lamentations 4:5​

    believeth, 4

    Job 15:22, 39:24; Isaiah 28:15-16 (2)​

    trust, 4

    Job 4:18, 15:15,31; Micah 7:5​

    verified, 3

    Genesis 42:20; 1 Kings 8:26; 2 Chronicles 6:17​

    continuance, 2

    Deuteronomy 28:59 (2)​

    nurse, 2

    Ruth 4:16; 2 Samuel 4:4​

    nursing, 2

    Numbers 11:12; Isaiah 49:23​

    stedfast, 2

    Psalms 78:8,37​

    assurance, 1

    Deuteronomy 28:66​

    bringers, 1

    2 Kings 10:5​

    fail, 1

    Jeremiah 15:18​

    nursed, 1

    Isaiah 60:4​

    stand, 1

    Psalms 89:28​

    surely, 1

    Hosea 5:9​

    trusted, 1

    Judges 11:20​

    trusty, 1

    Job 12:20 (2)​

    and is related to H542:

    אמן ; 'âmân

    Total KJB Occurrences: 2

    cunning, 1

    Song of Songs 7:1​

    workman, 1

    Song of Songs 7:1 (2)​

    and is related to H541:

    אמן ; 'âman

    Total KJB Occurrences: 1

    right, 1

    Isaiah 30:21​

    and is related to H540:

    אמן (Aramaic) ; 'ăman

    Total KJB Occurrences: 2

    believed, 1

    Daniel 6:23​

    faithful, 1

    Daniel 6:4​

    "from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

    from”

    מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

    Total KJB Occurrences: 79

    everlasting”

    עלם / עולם ; ôlâm

    Total KJB Occurrences: 438

    "or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924

    or”

    מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

    Total KJB Occurrences: 79

    ever”

    קדמה / קדם ; qedem / qêdmâh

    Total KJB Occurrences: 99

    See parallels in:

    Deuteronomy 33:27 KJB - The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

    Habakkuk 1:12 KJB - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

    Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​
     
  9. THE Art Vandelay

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    And thanks for your own that the holy spirit is not a person or being at all.
     
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  10. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I post scripture and deep study into the language, even line upon line, and you post "you".
     
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  11. THE Art Vandelay

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    No, you post crap, nothing more....nothing less.
     
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  12. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I never said that, nor taught it, anywhere. Now you are being misrepresentative.
     
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  13. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    If your theological position is to simply disagree, without demonstrative response from scripture, showing where what I have presented is "crap" (sic), then I am sad for you. Really. Please simply go back and read what is presented. You are commanded in scripture to prove all things and to search the scriptures.
     
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  14. THE Art Vandelay

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    So you admit again that you can't read. I've presented ample demonstrative response from scripture, which neither you nor anyone else has been remotely capable of refuting. I'm sad for you. You've been proven wrong and you just continue prattling on.
     
  15. THE Art Vandelay

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    Just following your lead in that, kiddo.
     
  16. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Another thing on "it", even as Jesus is called "seed", "it" (Rev. 12). Likewise the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is likened unto "wind" (which is thing), but Himself is not physical "wind":

    Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

    The Person/Being of the Holy Spirit brings life to people, as bringing them into spiritual things by "birth".
     
  17. THE Art Vandelay

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    The holy spirit is still NOT a person, NOT a being. Source: The Bible.
     
  18. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    You will continue the charade? Present the evidence that I taught any such thing as you have stated I did.
     
  19. THE Art Vandelay

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    The only one doing the charade is you, bud. Don't forget that.
     
  20. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    "bud" is short slang for "buddy", which means friend. If I were really your friend, would you speak to me like you have, and misrepresent my position?
     
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