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Featured Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Hockeycowboy, Oct 28, 2019.

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  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    THE Art Vandelay, that's pretty non-descript, even generic unto vague. Would you be more specific and address a single point at a time? Where specifically, in what I have posted, that you responded to, am I "completely wrong"? You will have to demonstrate this so that I understand what needs to be corrected, if anything at all. I do not choose to be in error, and if you think me so, you must show me where, and if I truly am in error, I will be corrected. I always seek the truth. However, merely asserting I am "completely wrong" without showing me where specifically, does not do me, you or anyone any good.
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    How come, whenever the “Jesus-is-God” believers quote Philippians 2:5-7, they almost always omit vss.8-11?

    Could it be that those verses say Jesus was “obedient”, and “God exalted Him”?

    Interesting that in almost every passage Trinitarians use to bolster their claim, either the surrounding context (of the passage) reveals a contradiction, or other Bible versions utilize more descriptive words that clarify the meaning!

    Hebrews 1 is another prime example.

    And on it goes....
     
  3. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Yes, because the Son took upon himself humanity (form of a servant), and I do not mind quoting the whole thing in context. The Son is always obedient to the Father, even before taking upon Himself humanity. See Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8, etc. That is the Father and Son relationship.

    God exalted Him, because He first lowered (humbled) Himself and took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Glorified humanity is now seated on the throne of Deity with the Father, in Christ Jesus.
     
  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Agreed.

    I’ve never read in the Bible about “glorified humanity seated on the Throne”.
     
  5. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    1Pe_1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Joh_17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Jas_2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

    Act_22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

    Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    1Pe_4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

    Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
    Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
    Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
     
  6. THE Art Vandelay

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    It's because Trinitarians don't care how easily picked apart their beloved unscriptural doctrine really is.
     
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  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    If you are speaking about the Roman Catholic definition of the word, which is the common def, I am not one. :)

    The Roman Catholic Definition of the word “Trinity”:

    Online Roman Catholic Library; Credo of the People of God; Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968 - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: The Credo of the People of God (1968)

    “We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son, in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,[8] the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."[9]”​

    Online Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, Holy Spirit; sections throughout - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Ghost

    “... that the Paraclete "is not to be considered as unconnected with the Father and the Son, for He is with Them one in substance and divinity"...

    ... Proceeding both from the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost, nevertheless, proceeds from Them as from a single principle. ... Hence it follows, indeed, that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the two other Persons, not in so far as They are distinct, but inasmuch as Their Divine perfection is numerically one. Besides, such is the explicit teaching of ecclesiastical tradition, which is concisely put by St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity V.14): "As the Father and the Son are only one God and, relatively to the creature, only one Creator and one Lord, so, relatively to the Holy Ghost, They are only one principle." This doctrine was definded in the following words by the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, "Enchiridion" (1908), n. 460]: "We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration." The teaching was again laid down by the Council of Florence (ibid., n. 691), and by Eugene IV in his Bull "Cantate Domino" (ibid., n. 703 sq.). ...

    ..."the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made, not created, not generated, but proceeding" ...”​

    The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV by Pope Eugene IV - The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

    The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes, and preaches one true God omnipotent, unchangeable, and eternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; one in essence, three in persons; Father unborn, Son born of the Father, Holy Spirit proceeding from Father and Son; that the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit. The Father alone begot the Son of His own substance; the Son alone was begotten of the Father alone; the Holy Spirit alone proceeds at the same time from the Father and Son.

    These three persons are one God, and not three gods, because the three have one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, one eternity, where no opposition of relationship interferes.

    “Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle. Whatever the Holy Spirit is or has, He has simultaneously from the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the Holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of the creature, but one principle. ...”​

    I do not believe the Roman Catholic definition of the word “trinity”, and neither should you, as it makes of God, of non-Being, and having no "form", "body", "likeness", "shape", etc.

    I do believe there are three Persons/Beings (Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost) that work together as "one", even as the 4 Gospels work together as "one", and the 66 books of scripture work together as "one". They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person/being.
     
    #87 Crosstian, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Here are some texts on the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

    The Holy Ghost/Spirit, What Does The Bible Say? The Scripture [KJB] listing on the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

    "the Holy Ghost" (x90) - Matthew 1:18,20, 3:11, 12:31,32, 28:19; Mark 1:8, 3:29, 12:36, 13:11; Luke 1:15,35,41,67, 2:25,26, 3:16,22, 4:1, 12:10,12; John 1:33, 7:39, 14:26, 20:22; Acts 1:2,5,8,16, 2:4,33,38, 4:8.31. 5:3,32, 6:3,5, 7:51,55, 8:15,17,18,19, 9:17,31, 10:38,44,45,47, 11:15,16,24, 13:2,4,9,52, 15:8,28, 16:6, 19:2 (x2),6, 20:23,28, 21:11, 28:25; Romans 5:5, 9:1, 14:17, 15:13,16; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 6:19, 12:3; 2 Corinthians 6:6, 13:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5,6; 2 Timothy 1:14; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 2:4, 3:7, 6:4, 9:8, 10:15; 1 Peter 1:12; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:7; Jude 1:20

    "the Spirit" (x80) - Matthew 4:1; Mark 1:10; Luke 2:27, 4:14; John 1:32,33, 3:5,6,8,34; Acts 2:4, 8:29, 10:19, 11:12,28, 16:7, 21:4; Romans 8:1,4,5 (x2),9,10,13,16,23,26 (x2),27, 15:30; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 12:7,8; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Galatians 3:2,3,5,14, 4:29, 5:5,16,17 (x2),18,22,25 (x2), 6:8 (x2); Ephesians 2:22, 3:5, 4:3, 5:9,18, 6:17,18; Philippians 2:1; Colossians 1:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Timothy 3:16, 4:1; 1 Peter 1:2,22, 3:18; 1 John 3:24, 5:6,8; Jude 1:19; Revelation 1:10, 2:7,11,17,29, 3:6,13,22, 14:13, 22:17

    "the Holy Spirit" (x1) - Luke 11:13

    "the LORD ... My spirit" (x2) - Genesis 6:3; Isaiah 59:21

    "the LORD ... my spirit" (x2) - Isaiah 30:1; Zechariah 4:6

    "my Spirit" (x2) - Acts 2:17,18

    "my spirit" (x10) - Proverbs 1:23; Isaiah 42:1, 44:3; Ezekiel 36:27, 37:14, 39:29; Joel 2:28,29; Haggai 2:5; Matthew 12:18

    "thy holy spirit" (x1) - Psalms 51:11

    "thy good spirit" (x1) - Nehemiah 9:20

    "thy spirit" (x3) - Nehemiah 9:30; Psalms 139:7, 143:10

    "thy presence" (x4?) - Exodus 33:15; Psalms 51:11, 139:7; Luke 13:26 (see also 2 Chronicles 20:9; Psalms 9:3, 16:11, 31:20, 140:13; Isaiah 64:1,2,3, see also Job 1:12, see also the phrase the "presence of the LORD", etc)

    "his Holy Spirit" (x3) - Isaiah 63:10,11; 1 Thessalonians 4:8

    "that holy Spirit of promise" (x1) - Ephesians 1:13

    "the holy Spirit of God" (x1) - Ephesians 4:30

    "the Spirit of Christ" (x2) - Romans 8:9; 1 Peter 1:11

    "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (x1) - Philippians 1:19

    "the Spirit of his Son" (x1) - Galatians 4:6

    "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (x1) - Romans 8:2

    "the Spirit of God" (x21) - Genesis 1:2, 41:38; 1 Samuel 10:10, 11:6, 19:20,23; 2 Chronicles 15:1, 24:20; Job 33:4; Ezekiel 11:24; Matthew 3:16, 12:28; Romans 8:9,14, 15:19; 1 Corinthians 2:11,14, 3:16, 7:40, 12:3; 1 John 4:2

    "the spirit of God" (x4) - Exodus 31:3, 35:31; Numbers 24:2; Job 27:3

    "the spirit of judgment"
    (x1) - Isaiah 4:4

    "the spirit of burning" (x1) - Isaiah 4:4

    "the Spirit of our God"
    (x1) - 1 Corinthians 6:11

    "the spirit of glory and of God" (x1) - 1 Peter 4:14

    "the spirit which is of God" (x1) - 1 Corinthians 2:12

    "the Spirit of adoption" (x1) - Romans 8:15

    "the spirit" (x9) - Numbers 11:26, 27:18; 1 Chronicles 12:18, 28:12; Ecclesiastes 11:5; Isaiah 32:15, 57:16; John 6:63 (see also John 11:33), Acts 6:10 (see also 2 Corinthians 3:6,8)

    "the spirit of wisdom" (x3) - Deuteronomy 34:9; Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17

    "the Spirit of him" (x1) - Romans 8:11

    "his Spirit" (x5) - Romans 8:11; Isaiah 48:16 ("he Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me" 3 Persons); 1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 3:16; 1 John 4:13

    "his spirit" (x5) - Numbers 11:29; Job 26:13; Psalms 106:33; Isaiah 34:16; Zechariah 7:12 (see also Job 34:14 connected with "his breath", see also Mark 2:8, 8:12 connected with "reason ... heart")

    "the spirit which is of God" (x1) - 1 Corinthians 2:12

    "the Spirit of our God" (x1) - 1 Corinthians 6:11

    "the Spirit of the living God" (x1) - 2 Corinthians 3:3

    "the holy Spirit of God" (x1) - Ephesians 4:30

    "the spirit of the holy gods" (x4) - Daniel 4:8,9,18, 5:11

    "the spirit of the gods" (x1) - Daniel 5:14

    "the Spirit of the LORD" (x20) - Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 14:6,19, 15:14; 1 Samuel 10:6, 16:13,14; 2 Samuel 23:2; 1 Kings 18:12, 22:24; 2 Kings 2:16; 2 Chronicles 18:23, 20:14; Isaiah 40:13, 59:19, 63:14; Ezekiel 11:5

    "the spirit of the LORD" (x5) - Isaiah 11:2, 40:7; Ezekiel 37:1; Micah 2:7, 3:8

    "the Spirit of the LORD God" (x1) - Isaiah 61:1

    "the Spirit of the Lord" (x5) - Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9, 8:39; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18

    "the Spirit of your Father" (x1) - Matthew 10:20

    "the Spirit of truth" (x3) - John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13

    "the spirit of truth" (x1) - 1 John 4:6

    "the Comforter" (x3) - John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7

    "the comforter" (x1) - Lamentations 1:16 [see also Ecclesiastes 4:1 (x2) & Lamentations 1:9 (x1)]

    "another Comforter" (x1) - John 14:16

    "the spirit of holiness" (x1) - Romans 1:4

    "the spirit ... of love" (x1) - 2 Timothy 1:7

    "the Spirit of grace" (x1) - Hebrews 10:29

    "the spirit of grace" (x) - Zechariah 12:10

    "the spirit of glory and of God" (x1) - 1 Peter 4:14

    "the Spirit of life from God" (x1) - Revelation 11:11

    "the Lord is that Spirit" (x1) - 2 Corinthians 3:17

    "the seven Spirits" (x1) - Revelation 1:4

    "the seven Spirits of God" (x3) - Revelation 3:1, 4:5, 5:6

    "another angel ... the earth was lightened with his glory" (x1) - Revelation 18:1
     
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  9. THE Art Vandelay

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    Here are some sound reasons supporting the fact that the holy spirit is NOT a person or being whatsoever:

    New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly.” It also further says: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.”

    The holy spirit is also NOT the "holy ghost". Throughout The Webster Bible, an amended King James Version originally published in 1833, American lexicographer Noah Webster replaced “Holy Ghost” with “Holy Spirit.” Webster did so because he knew that in the Scriptures this expression did not mean “an apparition.”

    The Bible, in passages such as Isaiah 44:3, compares the holy spirit to water. When God pours out his spirit upon his people, they become "full of holy spirit" or "filled with holy spirit". The scriptures show that Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and all of the disciples gathered together at Pentecost 33 C.E. are described as being full of, or filled with, holy spirit. Just think about it seriously: Could a person be 'poured out' on many different people? Can you honestly say one person could "fill" a whole group of people? The idea defies logic. The Bible refers to people being filled with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, but it never describes anyone as being filled with another person.

    It really isn't hard to see or understand that the holy spirit isn't a person, let alone a 1/3 part of some unscriptural "trinity".
     
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  10. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Very 'selective' (deceptive) quoting, as contextually, Roman Catholicism (not I) says:

    "... This article treats the spirit of God as it is presented in the OT and Judaism, and in the NT. Consideration is given in each of these sections to the spirit of God as a power and as a Person. ... In other OT passages, God's spirit is conceived more as a teacher or guide-the source of all intellectual and spiritual gifts-than as an efficacious force [Ps 142(143).10; Neh 9.20; Dn 5.15]. God's Spirit Not Presented as a Person. The OT clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Is 48.16; 63.11; 32.15). Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Is 63.10; Wis 1.3-7). ... As a result of the teaching of Christ, the definite personality of the Third Person of the Trinity is clear. However, in most cases, the phrase "spirit of God" reflects the OT notion of "the power of God." ... The Spirit of God as a Person. Although the NT concepts of the spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT, in the NT there is a gradual revelation that the Spirit of God's a Person. In the Synoptic Gospels. The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God. ... The only passage in the Synoptic Gospels that clearly speaks of the person of the Holy Spirit is the Trinitarian formula in Mt 28.19. ... The statement in Acts 15.28, "the Holy Spirit and we have decided," alone seems to imply full personality. ... However, the Trinitarian formulas employed by St. Paul (e.g., 2 Cor 13.13), indicate a real personality. ... So clearly does St. John see in the Spirit a person who takes Christ's place in the Church, that he uses a masculine pronoun (Greek) in reference to the Spirit even though [spirit] is neuter in gender ( 16.8, 13-16). Consequently, it is evident that St. John thought of the Holy Spirit as a Person, who is distinct from the Father and the Son, and who, with the glorified Son and the Father, is present and active in the faithful (14.16; 15.26; 16.7). (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Spirit of God, Vol 13, p574-576) ..." - Catholic Encyclopedia's and Dictionaries
     
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  11. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    The King James Bible says, "holy Ghost", and "Ghost" is old word, meaning "spirit, life, even person":

    "the Holy Ghost" (x90) - Matthew 1:18,20, 3:11, 12:31,32, 28:19; Mark 1:8, 3:29, 12:36, 13:11; Luke 1:15,35,41,67, 2:25,26, 3:16,22, 4:1, 12:10,12; John 1:33, 7:39, 14:26, 20:22; Acts 1:2,5,8,16, 2:4,33,38, 4:8.31. 5:3,32, 6:3,5, 7:51,55, 8:15,17,18,19, 9:17,31, 10:38,44,45,47, 11:15,16,24, 13:2,4,9,52, 15:8,28, 16:6, 19:2 (x2),6, 20:23,28, 21:11, 28:25; Romans 5:5, 9:1, 14:17, 15:13,16; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 6:19, 12:3; 2 Corinthians 6:6, 13:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5,6; 2 Timothy 1:14; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 2:4, 3:7, 6:4, 9:8, 10:15; 1 Peter 1:12; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:7; Jude 1:20

    Other Bibles said the same, long before Webster:

    German Luther Bible (circa 1530-1550)

    Mat 1:18 Die Geburt Christi war aber also getan. Als Maria, seine Mutter, dem Joseph vertraut war, fand sich's ehe er sie heimholte, daß sie schwanger war von dem heiligen Geist.​

    Bishops' Bible (1568):

    Mat 1:18 The birth of Iesus Christe was on this wise. When as his mother Marie was betrouthed to Ioseph (before they came together) she was founde with chylde of the holy ghost.​

    Douay Rheims (Jesuit) (circa 1550):

    Mat 1:18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.​

    Geneva Bible (circa 1560-1599):

    Mat 1:18 Nowe the birth of Iesvs Christ was thus, When as his mother Mary was betrothed to Ioseph, before they came together, shee was found with childe of the holy Ghost.​

    Samoan Bible:


    Mat 1:18 Sa faapea ona fanau mai o Iesu Keriso. Sa fāufautane lona tinā o Maria ia Iosefa, ua iloa ua to o ia i le Agaga Paia, a o lei faatasi i laua.​

    Tyndale NT:

    The birth of Christ was on this wise, when his mother Mary was married unto Ioseph, before they came to dwell to geder, she was found with child by the holy ghost.​

    Wycliffe:

    But the generation of Christ was thus (But the birth of the Messiah was thus). When Mary, the mother of Jesus, was espoused to Joseph, before that they came together, she was found having of the Holy Ghost in the womb​

    etc.

    Etymology

    "... Old English gast "breath; good or bad spirit, angel, demon; person, man, human being," in Biblical use "soul, spirit, life," from Proto-West Germanic *gaistaz (source also of Old Saxon gest, Old Frisian jest, Middle Dutch gheest, Dutch geest, German Geist "spirit, ghost"). This is conjectured to be from a PIE root *gheis-, used in forming words involving the notions of excitement, amazement, or fear (source also of Sanskrit hedah "wrath;" Avestan zaesha- "horrible, frightful;" Gothic usgaisjan, Old English gæstan "to frighten").

    Ghost is the English representative of the usual West Germanic word for "supernatural being." In Christian writing in Old English it is used to render Latin spiritus (see spirit (n.)), a sense preserved in Holy Ghost. ..." - ghost | Origin and meaning of ghost by Online Etymology Dictionary
     
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  12. THE Art Vandelay

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    All proving that the wrong teaching is promoted in multiple translations. Not something new there.
     
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  13. THE Art Vandelay

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    So, yet again, even the Catholics acknowledge that the holy spirit isn't a person. Good job backing that fact up!
     
  14. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Internal Roman Catholic doctrine is very "arian". Yet, what does it matter what Roman Catholicism (as I used to be one) says? You ought to know better than that. What matters is what scripture says, and you ought to know that:

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
     
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  15. THE Art Vandelay

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    Yes, and scripture does not say the holy spirit is a person at all. Nor does it teach God to be a trinity.
     
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  16. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Scripture, vs "you":

    Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
    Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

    [1] A non-person (thing), cannot come in the name of a person, as a name in scripture, deals with character of personality.

    [2] Jesus said, "another" "Comforter", and this "another" (G243, allon; αλλον) is someone like Himself (Jesus), to take His (Jesus') place on earth (Psalms 133:1-3; Acts 2:1-3,33; Revelation 5:6), a Representative, in His (Jesus') name.

    [3] Jesus said, "he" and "him".

    [4] Jesus said, "the Spirit", and God the Father is also "a Spirit" (John 4:24), as are angels (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7), as are men (Hebrews 12:23) and all are persons.

    There is a lot more, but start with these.
     
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  17. THE Art Vandelay

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    Wow, it's almost as if you've never actually read the Bible at all (which I suspect is the case).

    Take John 16:7,8 for example, where "he" is used to refer to the holy spirit and "it" is used at John 14:16,17. Why the difference? The reason for this is strictly grammatical. In the Greek language, in which John’s Gospel was written, the word for “helper” is in the masculine gender, but the term for “spirit” is neuter. In recording Jesus’ statement, John therefore used the masculine pronoun, such as “he” or “him,” when referring to what the helper would do. The neuter pronoun “it” was employed when reference was made to what the spirit of the truth would accomplish.

    Just because the scriptures personify the holy spirit at times when speaking of it, does not make it a personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.” The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
    So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context.
     
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  18. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Already spoke about this, - Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

    It's kinda like you're not reading what I respond in this thread with.

    Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.

    Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Revelation 12:4 KJB], “child” [Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB], “holy thing” [Luke 1:35 KJB] and “holy child” [Acts 4:27,30 KJB], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10 KJB] and masculine.

    The Father in Heaven, who indeed is a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; Job 13:8 KJB], is also given neuter terms, such as "Ancient of Days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB] and "Majesty" [Hebrews 1:3, 8:1 KJB], "I AM", "the living" [Matthew 16:16, 26:63; John 6:69; Acts 14:15 KJB], "Maker" [Job 36:3; Hosea 8:14; Hebrews 11:10 KJB], "Creator" [Romans 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19 KJB], and even referred to as "it" connected with "this voice", and "angel" (message) [John 12:29 KJB], etc, etc.

    The wicked angels, also "persons" (fallen, contrasted to unfallen) [Luke 15:7 KJB], are also called “it” [Luke 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc. KJB], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine.

    Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc.

    Do not be deceived by the word "Powers" into thinking you are dealing with a mere force, since the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as well as unfallen [as Gabriel and legions of Light] and fallen angels [as Lucifer and legions of Lie-ght], etc are all designated as "powers", each whom are living persons, living beings, see

    Heavenly “powers” (simply means an 'authority', see also 1 Peter 3:22 KJB, "authorities"):

    Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    Ephesians 6:12 KJB - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Titus 3:1 KJB - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    1 Peter 3:22 KJB - Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.​

    The Holy Spirit wills and is omniscient:

    1 Corinthians 12:11 KJB - But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.​
     
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  19. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Thanks for the admission.

    That's because "wisdom" is Jesus, being spoken of in the submissive (as Son to Father), and in the role of taken care of the 'chicks' under the wings (Luke 13:34).

    Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
    Thus:

    The subject, “me”, of that which is “possessed” of “the LORD” is “wisdom” [Proverbs 8:1,11,12,14 KJB].

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.​

    The text of Proverbs 3:19 KJB, is in perfect parallel with Proverbs 8:22,30 KJB, in that the Father “by Jesus” made all things:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​
     
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  20. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    That's because "wisdom" is Jesus, being spoken of in the submissive (as Son to Father), and in the role of taken care of the 'chicks' under the wings (Luke 13:34).

    In Proverbs 8 KJB, “wisdom”, is given in feminine terminology, “her voice” [vs. 1], “She” [vs. 2,3], “I dwell with prudence” [vs. 12] and before in the previous Proverbs:

    Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? Psalms 8:1

    Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    Proverbs 8:32 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.​

    “She” dwells with others:

    Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.​

    Looking back into Proverbs Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 we find that “wisdom” is again called “she”, “her” and also called “My sister”, and even “understanding” is called “kinswoman” and “instruction” called “her”, and in other passages like Psalms 85:10-13 KJB we find that “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed [each other].” - Psalms 85:10 KJB, etc:

    Proverbs 1:20 KJB - Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

    Proverbs 2:4 KJB - If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;​

    [see vs 2, “...incline thine ear unto wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 3:15 KJB - She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.​

    [see vs 13, “...findeth wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 3:16 KJB - Length of days [is] in her right hand; [and] in her left hand riches and honour.

    Proverbs 3:17 KJB - Her ways [are] ways of pleasantness, and all her paths [are] peace.

    Proverbs 3:18 KJB - She [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that retaineth her.

    Proverbs 4:6 KJB - Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.​

    [see vs 5, “...get wisdom...” and vs 7 “wisdom...get wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 4:8 KJB - Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

    Proverbs 4:9 KJB - She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

    Proverbs 7:4 KJB - Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:​

    According to the text of Proverbs 8 KJB itself, God was the one who was creating the Heavens and the Earth, and by the Scriptures themselves, we know that Christ Jesus Himself created all things by command/instruction of the Father [Isaiah 45:12; Psalms 95:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 10:12; John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-3 KJB], for it was by this “wisdom” that the Father is said to create, and this “wisdom” was eternally with the Father, for the “wisdom” [the Son] of God was eternally with Him [the Father]:

    Wisdom is as Truth and Love [all of which Jesus is], that is to say, eternal. Such cannot be created, nor come into existence at some point in time. Such is from everlasting to everlasting, unchanging, immutable.

    Job 28:12 KJB - But where shall wisdom be found? and where [is] the place of understanding?

    Job 28:30 KJB - Whence then cometh wisdom? and where [is] the place of understanding?​

    The Father eternally possessed this “wisdom”:

    Daniel 2:20 KJB - Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

    Revelation 7:12 KJB - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.​

    Let us look past Proverbs 8 KJB and continue into Proverbs 9 KJB, looking at “wisdom” who hath “maidens”:

    Proverbs 9:1 KJB - Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

    Proverbs 9:2 KJB - She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

    Proverbs 9:3 KJB - She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

    Proverbs 9:4 KJB - Whoso [is] simple, let him turn in hither: [as for] him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​

    Jesus Christ Himself, speaks on “wisdom” and “her children”:

    Matthew 11:19 KJB - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Luke 7:35 KJB - But wisdom is justified of all her children.​

    The Father is the “of whom” are all things, and it is the Son “by whom” are all things:

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

    Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

    Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?​

    [combined with...]

    Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.​

    [and yet still...]

    Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.​

    This does not make the Son of God literally a woman, but illustrates the submissive character of relationship of Son to that of the Father, wherein the Son always honours the Father's will [Exodus 20:12; Malachi 1:6 KJB], and thus is paralleled in 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB with the words, “was unto him as a daughter”, for Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father is “wisdom”:

    1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB - But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 KJB - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Luke 11:49 KJB - Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:​

    For Luke 11:49 KJB, see also Jeremiah 7:25, 25:4, 26:5, 29:19, 35:15, 44:4 KJB:​

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Isaiah 45:12 KJB - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

    Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

    Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

    Job 12:12 KJB - With the ancient [is] wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

    Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

    Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.

    Colossians 2:1 KJB - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

    Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.]​
     
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