1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Hockeycowboy, Oct 28, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    [12-B] The beginning of the creation of God?

    Those which deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, will quote a portion of Revelation 3:14, claiming that it teaches that Jesus is the first thing created:

    Revelation 3:14 KJB - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Revelation 3:14 GNT - Καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Λαοδικείᾳ ἐκκλησίας γράψον· τάδε λέγει ὁ ἀμήν, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός, ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ·​

    Revelation 3:14 GNT-TR+ - καιG2532 CONJ τωG3588 T-DSM αγγελωG32 N-DSM τηςG3588 T-GSF εκκλησιαςG1577 N-GSF λαοδικεωνG2994 N-GPM γραψονG1125 V-AAM-2S ταδεG3592 D-APN λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM αμηνG281 HEB οG3588 T-NSM μαρτυςG3144 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πιστοςG4103 A-NSM καιG2532 CONJ αληθινοςG228 A-NSM ηG3588 T-NSF αρχηG746 N-NSF τηςG3588 T-GSF κτισεωςG2937 N-GSF τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM

    The English word “beginning” is translated from the koine Greek [G746] “ἀρχὴ”, “arche”, and it is translated as:

    Total KJV Occurrences: 59

    beginning, 39

    Matthew 19:4, 24:8 (2),21; Mark 1:1, 10:6, 13:19; Luke 1:2; John 1:1-2 (2), 2:11, 6:64, 8:25,44, 15:27, 16:4; Philippians 4:15 (2); Colossians 1:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 1:10, 3:14, 7:3; 2 Peter 3:4; 1 John 1:1, 2:7 (2),13-14 (2),24 (2), 3:8,11; 2 John 1:5-6 (2); Revelation 1:8, 3:14, 21:6, 22:13
    principalities, 6

    Romans 8:38; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15; Titus 3:1
    first, 4

    Acts 26:4; Hebrews 2:3, 5:12; Jude 1:6
    corners, 2

    Acts 10:11, 11:5
    principality, 2

    Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 2:10
    began, 1

    Hebrews 2:3
    beginnings, 1

    Mark 13:8
    magistrates, 1

    Luke 12:11
    power, 1

    Luke 20:20
    principles, 1

    Hebrews 6:1
    rule, 1

    1 Corinthians 15:24​

    The same part of the phrase is found throughout, and is connected directly to God, the Uncreated Creator:

    Revelation 1:8 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Revelation 21:6 KJB - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [“ἡ ἀρχὴ”] and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Revelation 21:7 KJB - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    Revelation 22:13 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [“ἀρχὴ”] and the end, the first and the last.​

    This same word is used in several ways, one of which means to be the “beginning”, or the Person who starts everything, the First Cause, or the Originator of all things, in other words, the Person through whom all things created came into existence and who is the Head of all creation. This describes the Son - Jesus, since He is God, the Word, and also the second/last Adam:

    Matthew 19:4 KJB - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning [“απ αρχης”] made them male and female,

    Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning [“απο δε αρχης”] of the creation God made them male and female.

    Mark 13:19 KJB - For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning [“απ αρχης”] of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning [και συ κατ αρχας κυριε] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

    See also:

    Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.​

    This is being directly applied to Jesus Christ, who is “the same” in Hebrews 1:6-13, 13:8 KJB, see also Psalms 102:12,24-28 KJB

    In the Gospel and Epistles of John, we read that Jesus, the Word, is the Person which created “all things” and was eternally “with” the Father, and that Jesus is indeed “God”, not the person of the Father, neither the person of the Holy Spirit, but the person of the Son [the Word]:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning [“εν αρχη”] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning [“εν αρχη”] with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning [“απ αρχης”], which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

    Jesus created all things and is before all things, and is the head, having the preeminence in all things:

    Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    Colossians 1:14 KJB - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning [“εστιν αρχη”], the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 2:6 KJB - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

    Colossians 2:7 KJB - Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

    Colossians 2:8 KJB - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Colossians 2:9 KJB - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​

    When asked the question, did The Son have a beginning of days, the Scriptures resoundingly give us the answer through the type of Melchizedek, from the Father Himself and other texts, that 'No, He is Life Eternal.' [see also: John 5:39; 1 John 5:11 KJB]:

    Hebrews 7:3 KJB - Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    Psalms 90:2 KJB - Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    Psalms 93:2 KJB - Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

    Psalms 45:6 KJB - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

    Lamentations 5:19 KJB - Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

    Hebrews 1:8 KJB - But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​
     
    #21 Crosstian, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  2. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
  3. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    Incorrect on every single count, but you already knew that. The kind of pretzel twisting you have to do to the scriptures in order to deny what it clearly says is absurd. Just admit you reject what the Bible says in favor of inane ideas.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  4. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    Your rejection of the clear teaching of the scriptures is noted by the absurd amount of pretzel-twisting you employ with that nonsense. God's Word says Jesus was the first of God's creative works. You say otherwise, ergo you reject God's Word, the Bible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  5. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    It is obvious who holds the truth of scripture, and who does not. My presenting of scripture will remain as they are, and what will you do with them, will be up to you. I pray you do what is right. Who is the King of Glory (Psalms 24)?

    The King of Glory?


    Psalms 24:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

    Psalms 24:2 KJB - For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

    Psalms 24:3 KJB - Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

    Psalms 24:4 KJB - He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

    Psalms 24:5 KJB - He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Psalms 24:6 KJB - This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

    Psalms 24:7 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:8 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

    Psalms 24:9 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:10 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.​

    According to Psalms 24 KJB, the “... King of Glory ...” is verily “... The LORD [JEHOVAH] of hosts ...” Himself who descended to the earth, was upon the earth and later ascended into Heaven, and the eternal city, far above all:

    Consider Psalms 68:18-20 KJB:

    Psalms 68:18 KJB - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

    Psalms 68:19 KJB - Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

    Psalms 68:20 KJB - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.​

    This is directly cited in the New Testament in reference to Jesus Christ, which ascended far above all principality and power in Ephesians 4:8-10 KJB:

    Ephesians 4:8 KJB - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.​

    Side Note:

    Isaiah 26:19 KJB - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    Matthew 27:50 KJB - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Matthew 27:51 KJB - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    Matthew 27:52 KJB - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    Matthew 27:53 KJB - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    1 Corinthians 15:20 KJB - But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

    Ephesians 4:9 KJB - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Ephesians 4:10 KJB - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​

    And then let us consider John 3:11-13 KJB:

    John 3:11 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    John 3:12 KJB - If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    John 3:13 KJB - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.​

    And Ephesians 1:20-23 KJB:

    Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.​

    And Revelation 12:5 KJB:

    Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​

    And Acts 1:9-11 KJB:

    Acts 1:9 KJB - And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Acts 1:10 KJB - And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    Acts 1:11 KJB - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

    See also John 14:1-4 KJB:

    John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    John 14:4 KJB - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

    Who is the King of Glory? The LORD, The LORD [JEHOVAH] God, the Son – Jesus, who descended, to later ascend, even as He has done in many other places in scriptures, and times before taking upon himself humanity, for He was in "the form of God" (Philippians 2:6 KJB) from eternity. See Genesis chapters 3, 11, 17-19; Exodus 20, etc. KJB and the remainder of this study.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    And the obviousness points to your not holding the truth of scripture, but rather the dishonest twisting of it. Your dishonest presenting of scripture remains as is. The actual scriptures and what they say will remain in contradiction of your statements.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    You will have to be specific, where you think (without evidence documented so far) I am twisting scripture. Please do not be generic, but specific in that which I have already provided, otherwise an accusation is simply that and nothing more. Thank you.

    The Good Shepherd?

    Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

    1 Kings 22:17 "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said ..."

    2 Chronicles 18:16 "Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, ..."

    Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.​

    God's people, “the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand ...”

    Psalms 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

    Isaiah 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.​

    Compare:

    Matthew 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me ..."

    Mark 10:14 "... Suffer the little children to come unto me ..."

    Luke 18:16 "... Suffer little children to come unto me ..."

    John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

    John 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    John 21:17 "... Peter ... said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."
    Isaiah 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

    Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

    Mark 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
    Those heard the voice of the Good Shepherd:

    John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.​

    The great I AM, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd, who knows His, and are known of His:

    Isaiah 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

    Which “good shepherd” gave “His life for the sheep”? To whom does the “little flock” belong then, and whose “voice” “shall” “they” “hear”? It is the very voice of Jesus, calling them, “...follow me.”

    Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

    Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,​

    Who saw us like “... sheep without a shepherd ...” [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16; Mark 6:34] and came to “... to seek and to save that which was lost ...” [Luke 19:10]?

    Scripture hath said,

    Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.​

    Who is it that even had “... appeared of old ...”, and has loved us “... with an everlasting love ...”? Who is it that with “... lovingkindness ...” has “... drawn thee ...”? It is Jesus Christ:

    Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

    Think about what is going to the “... uttermost parts of the earth ...” and “... all the ends of the earth ...” even now:

    Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

    Mark 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

    John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.​

    Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

    We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... for the Shepherd calls us. He calls those of His sheep to “... come out of her, my people ...”. Do we belong to Him or to another?

    Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

    Compare:

    Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:​

    Compare:

    John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

    Compare:

    See again Psalms 95, for whose voice to follow:

    ... Follow me ...”: Matthew 9:9, 16:24, 19:21; Mark 2:14,

    ... his disciples follow him ...”: Mark 6:1, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23,59, 18:22; John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19,

    ... follow thou me ...”: John 21:22,

    ... follow the Lamb ...”: Revelation 14:4

    John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

    Compare:

    Deuteronomy 1:30 "The LORD your God which goeth before you ..."

    Deuteronomy 1:33 "Who went in the way before you, ... in fire by night, ... in a cloud by day."

    Matthew 28:7 "... he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you ..."

    Mark 16:7 "... he goeth before you ..."

    John 18:37 "... Jesus answered... Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."​

    Jesus is no hireling, but He is the Good and Great Shepherd of the Sheep:

    Do we not desire to heed the voice [Psalms 95:7; Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7, etc KJB], He is the Way, The Truth and the Life, that Good Shepherd:

    Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

    Psalms 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.​
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    The fact that you're simply pulling out random scriptures out of nowhere and claiming they support your nonsense, is proof enough. Thanks for proving my point so well.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  9. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Why are you avoiding what I have shared and not addressing them directly, and not providing any specific points from them based upon your accusation? Surely you can point to just one "twisting" of scripture that you say I have done, so we can look at in depth, in context?

    Another:

    The God with us?

    Psalms 46:7 KJB - The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

    Psalms 46:11 KJB - The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

    Isaiah 7:14 KJB - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Matthew 1:23 KJB - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.​

    “... The LORD of Hosts ...”, this “... God of Jacob ...”, even the “... God with us ...”:

    Genesis 26:24 KJB - And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

    Genesis 28:15 KJB - And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

    Genesis 31:3 KJB - And the LORD said unto Jacob, Return unto the land of thy fathers, and to thy kindred; and I will be with thee.

    Genesis 46:4 KJB - I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again: and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.

    Exodus 3:12 KJB - And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

    Compare, “... I have sent thee ...”:

    Matthew 10:16 KJB - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Matthew 23:34 KJB - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    Luke 10:3 KJB - Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

    John 20:21 KJB - Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

    Philippians 2:19 KJB - But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.​

    Deuteronomy 31:6 KJB - Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Joshua 1:5 KJB - There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    1 Kings 8:57 KJB - The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:

    1 Chronicles 28:20 KJB - And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.​

    The New Testament usage of this:

    Matthew 28:20 KJB - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Acts 18:10 KJB - For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.​

    ... continued ...
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Why are you avoiding what I have shared and not addressing them directly, and not providing any specific points from them based upon your accusation? Surely you can point to just one "twisting" of scripture that you say I have done, so we can look at in depth, in context?

    ... continued ...

    The very context that the Apostle Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with:

    Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

    Compare:​

    Psalms 30:10 KJB - Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.

    Psalms 54:4 KJB - Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

    Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.​

    Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

    Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

    Side note, Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] equates Jesus Christ as the JEHOVAH God, the Son, who changes not, the same, even the same yesterday, to day and for ever, the very Helper and Comforter.​

    Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

    Side note:

    The “And ...” [Hebrews 1:10 KJB] continues the expression of “But unto the Son he saith ...” [Hebrews 1:8 KJB], which means that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is still citing the Old Testament passages, specifically those of David, in reference to the Father speaking to and about His Son, Jesus Christ:​

    Compare:

    Psalms 102:12 KJB - But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.​

    Side note, “... O LORD ...” [Psalms 102:12 KJB] is direct reference to JEHOVAH the Son, see Psalms 102:1,12,15,16,19,21,22 KJB:

    Psalms 102:12 (102:13) HOT [read from Right to Left] -

    ואתה יהוה לעולם תשׁב וזכרך לדר ודר׃​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100], notice how it translates the Hebrew JEHOVAH into the Greek “κύριε”, “kurie” or English “LORD”, which is used to identify Jesus Christ throughout the New Testament.​

    Psalms 102:12 (101:13) LXX* - σὺ δέ, κύριε, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα μένεις, καὶ τὸ μνημόσυνόν σου εἰς γενεὰν καὶ γενεάν.​

    Consider carefully the importance of these texts, in what they are teaching, in that no one can say that Jesus is JEHOVAH [the Son], the “Lord”, but by the Holy Ghost, for a person of the 'Watch Tower', or 'Arian', or 'Unitarian', etc., may say that 'Jesus is lord', but they will not acknowledge Him as the LORD, JEHOVAH [the Son] – Deity – Eternal, I AM, Almighty God, etc, and nor do they keep the Ten Commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; 1 John 2:4, 3:4 KJB] and therefore they need to read John 8:24,58; Acts 5:32 KJB very seriously and prayerfully:​

    1 Corinthians 12:3 KJB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    1 Corinthians 12:3 GNT - διὸ γνωρίζω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐν Πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλῶν λέγει ἀνάθεμα ᾿Ιησοῦν, καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριον ᾿Ιησοῦν εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.​

    Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 2:11 GNT - καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι Κύριος ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ πατρός.​

    Even as it is written:​

    Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    Isaiah 45:23 KJB - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

    Psalms 102:24 KJB - I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

    Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

    Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.​

    Compare:​

    Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.​

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Romans 10:13 KJB -For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

    Side note: see also Genesis 4:26, 12:8, 26:25; Psalms 116:4,13,17; Zephaniah 3:9 KJB​

    Acts 19:5 KJB - When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 1:2 KJB - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:​

    Paul, directly citing the Old Testament, in the context of the words JEHOVAH God, “... I am with thee ...”, are spoken by “... Jesus Christ the same ...”
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    I'm not avoiding anything, yet you're continuing to do exactly what I pointed out: randomly quoting scriptures here and there that do nothing to bolster the nonsense you're putting out. And I notice that one of the main problems you have is your use of one of the most inaccurate, unreliable, and antiquated Bible translations available.....the KJB. No wonder you're so confused, when you use a translation that is known for adding to/taking away from the original language renderings.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  12. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Where is the evidence of your accusation that I asked for, several times now? Still waiting.

    Distraction. Non-sequitur. It's also simply untrue. :)



    Feel free to read (just scroll down to section):

    The preserved word of God (Psalms 12:6-7) in the English language – The King James Bible (KJB) – AV1611 – Vindicated Files (PDF & Powerpoint):

    Why would you not give evidence of your accusation, and then try to derail the subject to another completely unrelated subject, and again without evidence, only accusation?

    I already see what you are attempting to do, but it won't work. :) I have hundreds of pages on this.

    In fact, in matters of "antiquity'" of the KJB language, I have several books on this, one of which very clearly proves its modernity, and demonstrates from modern newspapers, headlines, movies and common lingo, that the KJB is very much up to date, not only in the UK but in the States and English speaking countries, for instance:

    Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these?

    abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

    abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

    abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

    abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart
    None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

    Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

    Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

    Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

    Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].

    What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ...
     
  13. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    All of the words in Colossians 1:15-18, etc are perfect in the King James as they are.

    You, instead, have to attack "translation".

    Thank you for proving my point and agreeing with what I said, and not giving a single evidence of a single mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc., in any language in the world, with the word "other" in Colossians 1:16, other than as found in "addition" in the NWT, by the WTS.

    You should ask the WTS the question, why they felt the need to make an addition, which clearly alters the text to prove their apriori. It wasn't in the translation, and definitely changes the meaning 180 degrees, which is a far cry from simply adding the italicized word "other" [etc] in other places which simply attempts to convey a more smooth reading, as in Genesis 20:16 KJB, etc.

    If we took the italicized words ["other"] out of all KJB texts, it would not change the meaning of those sentences 180 degrees, as does the NWT "addition" in Colossians [4 times mind you]. The removal of all these below, would make for a more harsh reading, but would be unchanged in context.

    Here are all the known instances, that I am aware [I apologize if I missed any], of in the KJB with the added italicized words "other" in them [I looked these up myself]:

    OT:

    Genesis 20:16, 25:23, 31:50, 41:3, 47:21; Exodus 4:7, 26:3, 28:10,25,27[x2], 30:32, 36:10, 37:8, 39:20[x2]; Leviticus 11:23, 13:26, 20:24,26, 25:53; Numbers 10:21, 36:3; Deuteronomy 13:7; Joshua 11:19, 21:27, 22:7; Judges 7:7, 9:44, 13:10, 16:17; 1 Samuel 30:20; 2 Samuel 1:24, 17:9, 24:22; 1 Kings 7:6; 2 Kings 12:7; 1 Chronicles 9:32; 2 Chronicles 13:9, 20:1, 25:12, 29:34, 30:23, 32:17,22, 34:12, 35:13; Nehemiah 11:1; Esther 2:12; Job 8:12, 24:24; Psalms 73:5[x2], 85:10; Isaiah 26:13; Jeremiah 12:12, 25:33, 32:20; Ezekiel 16:34, 41:21, 48:8; Daniel 3:21; Hosea 9:1, 13:10

    NT:


    Acts 5:29; 1 Corinthians 11:21

    What do you immediately notice, between the Hebrew and Koine Greek translation of the scripture into the English, in regards the addition of italicized words "other"? The NT basically doesn't need a single addition in the KJB, I was actually surprised at this, as it was unexpected. Therefore, even the balance of percentage is against what the NWT did. Yet, there's more:

    Therefore, even with such overwhelming evidence, should the WTS just be purposefully and intentfully adding the word "other" 4 more times [without italics* [1]] into Colossians 1, to suit what they think/believe [apriori] it says?

    *Colossians 1:16-17 NWT - 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,q and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

    Where are the italics, when they know for a fact that the Koine Greek word for "other" [allos or loipos, etc], is not in a single ms, etc?

    The King James translators were honest in what they did.

    Do you see the same integrity for the WTS producers? I personally do not. I am not asking you to explain for them. I am just asking you to stand back and look at it. Ask yourself, how many persons among the WTS, Jehovah's Witnesses, know that there is not a single Koine Greek authority [or any langauge MS, authority] for those 4 additions? You ought to be asking the WTS, why aren't they in Italics? Do you [the WTS] need to be hiding such things, if we have the truth? Aren't there better ways to explain a text, than to simply insert 4 unauthorized words without italics to prove what we believe? Do you tell people even in the footnote that they are additions to the text and not 'original'? I see no footnotes to this effect, though the NWT [silver sword] is replete with footnotes. There WTS, why no footnotes here instructing the reader? If I were WTS/JW, I would be asking those questions.
     
    #33 Crosstian, Nov 10, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  14. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Let's look at the context of a single scripture then:

    Genesis 19:24 KJB -Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    [Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also]
     
  15. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    Easy enough to pick apart, since Jesus is NOT "the LORD [JEHOVAH]", nor have you even come close to having any kind of argument that he is. Your nonsense is clearly based on errant, pre-determined ideas.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  16. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    No, they aren't even close to perfect in King James. And "translation" has a great deal to do with accuracy. For example, some lunatic Trinitarian felt the need, some 300 years after the Bible was completed to change verbiage in order to bolster support for their personal beliefs. 1 John 5:7,8 is the perfect example of that, as it's an example that is well-documented and known to various Bible scholars the world over.

    The non-belonging verbiage? "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

    All you keep doing is digging a bigger hole for yourself with your cherry-picking, dodging, and pretzel-twisting of scripture.
     
  17. THE Art Vandelay

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +53
    Nope. It's completely true, and you have nothing to dispute that fact.
     
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    7,147
    Ratings:
    +4,238
    Religion:
    Christian
    1 John 5:7-8 in the KJV, also known as the Comma Johanneum, is an addition not found in the oldest manuscripts...yet it’s still being published in the KJV as genuine Scripture.

    There are many other passages in the King James promoting errors in Scripture.

    You didn’t know that?
     
  19. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    What do you mean, "easy enough to pick apart" and "pre-determined ideas"? All I did was quote the scripture and highlight it, showing that there are two persons being referred to there as "LORD" (JEHOVAH).

    Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;​

    One "LORD" (JEHOVAH; person of the Son, one of the three men, the other two being the angels, which stand upon His right and left, Gabriel and 'herald') is quite literally standing on the earth, as per context:

    Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
    Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
    Gen 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
    Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
    Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
    Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
    Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    Gen 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
    Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
    Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
    Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
    Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
    Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
    Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
    Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
    Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;​

    Why only "two" of the "three", it is because the "LORD" was the third, who was still standing with Abraham, after the "two" angels went ahead, and the "LORD" (Person/Being of the Son) followed after when done speaking with Abraham, for God came down to personally see to the matter, as He had in so many other places in scripture.

    Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
    Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
    Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
    Gen 19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
    Gen 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

    Jer_50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

    Amo_4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.​

    Jesus spoke of the events of Sodom and Gomorrah, as having been there, personally:

    Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Mat_11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    Mat_11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
    Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Luk_10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
    Luk_17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.​

    Jesus had even shown Abraham His coming:

    Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Gen_17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
    Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

    What do you make of these texts and others which speak of Jesus JEHOVAH [H3444 H3068]?

    Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃
    Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm​
     
  20. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    368
    Ratings:
    +94
    Religion:
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Non-sequitur. The text, 1 John 5:7-8 is in the texts (demonstrate that in just a minute), and secondly doesn't say what WTS/JW teach against.

    Now, to 1 John 5:7-8.

    The Biblical evidence:

    God has stated in His word, that He would preserve His words from generation to generation:

    Psalms 12:6 KJB - The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Psalms 12:7 KJB - Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Matthew 24:35 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Deuteronomy 8:3 KJB - And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

    Matthew 4:4 KJB - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Luke 4:4 KJB - And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.​

    The Logical evidence:

    Divine inspiration without Divine preservation would be a Divine waste of time. This particular phrase whether in text or margin, quotations for varied persons in history, thus has been around a long time, and even with the Textus Receptus [TR], and moreso, in the King James Bible [the preserved word of God in English] for over 400 years. It is obviously being preserved by that which is greater than the human capability or mind.

    The phrase is also unique to John, in that the text does not refer to the specific terms of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but rather to the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. The phrase "the word", in reference to the person of the Son, is unique to John's mind, among the gospel and epistle writers.

    Just standing back and looking at it objectively, the phrase that is in dispute by critics [see wikipedia, etc], is actually quite large to have been purposefully inserted at some point in early history after the completion of the original text, but it would be far easier to drop it in transmission, transcribing.

    Some may argue that the phrase is not in the majority of Koine Greek witnesses, and is therefore not to be retained. This is a logical fallacy. While it is true that it is not in the majority of Greek 'witnesses' [most of which are late mss, etc], that does not preclude its having been originally therein, nor of it's validity as standing in the texts of the other languages of the world, such as Latin, etc.

    God never stated that He had to preserve His living word in any singular language, even dead [Koine Greek, Latin, etc] languages at that.

    God never stated that He would preserve His word in just the 'early' works and fragments, or in just the 'late' works and fragments which are found in the dusty forgotten places of the world. He may use any combination thereof He chooses.

    God never stated that He would preserve His word in the majority of texts. God is able to save by many, few or even just one. For instance, see the battles of Gideon and the 300 [Judges 6 KJB], or Jonathan and his armour bearer:

    1 Samuel 14:6 KJB - And Jonathan said to the young man that bare his armour, Come, and let us go over unto the garrison of these uncircumcised: it may be that the LORD will work for us: for there is no restraint to the LORD to save by many or by few.​

    God is able to re-inspire a text that has been destroyed through various means [in fact, this is how DNA itself, which is a written language, works, when mutations, errors occur within itself. It has a self correcting mechanism.], for instance see the examples of Moses and Jeremiah:

    Jeremiah 36:20 KJB - And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king.

    Jeremiah 36:21 KJB - So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king.

    Jeremiah 36:22 KJB -Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and [there was a fire] on the hearth burning before him.

    Jeremiah 36:23 KJB -And it came to pass, [that] when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast [it] into the fire that [was] on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that [was] on the hearth.

    Jeremiah 36:24 KJB - Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, [neither] the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.

    Jeremiah 36:25 KJB -Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.

    Jeremiah 36:26 KJB -Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,

    Jeremiah 36:27 KJB -Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

    Jeremiah 36:28 KJB - And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?​

    Notice Matthew 1:11 KJB:

    Matthew 1:11 KJB - And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:​

    Notice who is suddenly 'missing'?

    Jehoiakim... (for it was Jehoiakim that begat Jechonias, and Josias the father of Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:34; Jeremiah 1:3, 22:18, 25:1, 26:1, 27:1, 35:1, 36:1,9, 45:1, 46:2) and was Jechonias' grandfather (1 Chronicles 3:16; Jeremiah 22:24, 24:1, 27:20, 28:4, 37:1; "Coniah" = "Jeconiah/s")), but why?

    It was for what he did to the word of God; which was cutting it up into pieces and having it burned.

    On another note, some 'skeptics' , or even so-called Bible scholars [like the 'lawyers, scribes, etc of Jesus' day], try to point out in scripture, like this location, and say, “See, your Bible cannot be trusted, as it has gaps in the Genealogies, and therefore who knows how many persons are missing, etc, etc.” Yet, the only reason we know that there are so-called “gaps” in certain places like Matthew or elsewhere in the first place, is because those so-called “gaps” are filled in elsewhere, which means, there are no actual gaps in scripture [KJB].

    Also, this particular example is good, because of what else it shows. Namely, that even though Jeremiah wrote [through Baruch; Jeremiah 36:1-4 KJB] the original note/letter and sent it to the King, from God, the King cut up and burned the original copy. Therefore, that “original manuscript” is forever lost [except God bring it back through miracle]. This goes to show that those who claim to only believe the “original manuscripts” do not know what they are talking about.

    The “original manuscripts” are long gone, destroyed, burned, faded, erased, or re-used [called a 'palimpsest', scrape over a lambskin, etc and rewrite on top], buried at sea and eaten, and so on.

    God does not care so much about the “originals” as He does about simply “preserving” His word [see Psalms 12:6-7 KJB], generally through memory, copying, etc.

    Well, since the King cut up and burned [Jeremiah 36:23 KJB] the “original” manuscript copy of the letter by Jeremiah/Baurch, how then do we have a copy of it in scripture to read [Jeremiah 36 KJB]? Did you take notice all of the times that “scribes” are near at hand, making copies of what is said, or written? What was more important, the “original” or preserving what was said by God?

    Obviously preserving the words, not the “original” manuscript.

    Yet, this is not all, for we even see that God had Jeremiah/Baruch, write an “original” manuscript number 2, to repeat what was in the first “original” with even more words, see Jeremiah 36:28,32 KJB. Therefore, we see, that if a piece of God's word be maliciously destroyed, God, through one means or another, preserves it. In this instance, Jeremiah and Baruch were to write such again, and add more to it.

    Thus we now have “original” manuscript number 2.

    Yet this “original” manuscript is taken and tied to a stone and cast into the Euphrates river [Jeremiah 51:63 KJB], thus eliminating “original” manuscript number 2, by decree of God, through an angel.

    How then do we have those words in Jeremiah since the “original” manuscript 2 was purposefully destroyed at God's own command? Well, someone obviously made a copy of those words, either Jeremiah/Baruch, or a “scribe” in either the Temple or King's court, etc and thus we then have “original” manuscript number 3.

    Yet, to be sure, “original” manuscript number 3 is more than likely, as the other two, long since been disintegrated. It is not the “originals” that are important, but rather it is the preservation [by God] of those words which were given by God [Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB].

    Consider also the original Tables of Stone written upon by the finger of God, were broken by Moses [Exodus 32:19; Deuteronomy 9:17 KJB].

    Was the medium of the material important as much as the words, or were the words to be preserved instead on a new [though similar] medium [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2 KJB]?

    God's words are still available today in the preserved word of God, in English, the King James Bible, and may be found in Exodus 20:1-17 KJB. No old fragment of an "original" is needed. God's word is "quick" ['living'; Hebrews 4:12 KJB], not dead.

    Now, let's look at the MSS evidence.
     
    #40 Crosstian, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...