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Featured EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by gideondavid40, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity ✔ a-OK RF member .99/lb
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    You should begin by going through the sacrifices in the Torah to see what they are for. Whatever is not listed is your answer. You should also research how Jesus comes to the conclusion that people have power to forgive sins and also the nature of praying for others to be forgiven. That's probably what Paul does and what he wants other people to do, assuming he writes Hebrews.
    There is an example of some sin that is unaffected by a sacrifice. I wonder what the other ones are? It might be embarrassing for you @Redemptionsong if it were plain common sense. How unexpected.
     
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  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If the problem isn't with translations, then you should start believing what is written in the JPS!

    Here are the relevant words in the JPS, Numbers 17,verse 12:
    'He [Aaron] put on the incense and made expiation for the people;'
    The notes in the JPS margin say, 'It is thus Aaron's expiation ritual that halts the plague.' It is NOT the incense burning that expiates. Incense burning accompanies every meat-offering.

    You say that the incense burning IS the expiation ritual!

    I say that the incense burning is separate from the expiation ritual, and that the KJV is correct to insert a comma to make this distinction clear.

    The word 'expiation' gives a clue as to Aaron's intention, because the word comes from the Latin expiare, meaning 'appease by sacrifice'. So, guilt is said to be 'expiated' when it is visited with punishment falling on a substitute. This is clearly not what is intended with incense burning, which is symbolic of prayer.
     
    #242 Redemptionsong, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's not me you're undermining; it's Paul. It's the Word of God that you fail to believe.

    I've provided the key words, you try answering a straightforward question. Is Paul referring to the remission of sin?
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity ✔ a-OK RF member .99/lb
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    You are the one who is embarrassing Paul by quoting him without doing what he suggests -- researching his reasoning. Maybe you don't believe that you can? Rosends is a rabbi with a diploma, and you're calling Paul's work into question by not following its advice.

    As if I could fail by not believing you, someone who can't be bothered to take an interest in their own scripture.
     
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity ✔ a-OK RF member .99/lb
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    That was pretty unpleasant wasn't it? We should get married and maybe build a putt putt golf course. We'll have arguments while we putt.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the ritual which is listed - the incense.
    And yet there was no meal offering here, so maybe the incense isn't limited in its power to accompanying a meal offering. maybe, when the text has Moses tell Aaron what to do to effect atonement, and Aaron does it, the text is being precise.
    Well, the text says that. Put on the incense and atone for the people. You want to introduce something unmentioned there. That's your invention. Even placing punctuation shouldn't indicate a whole missing ritual. And yet you insist that there is one. Fascinating.
    But the Hebrew is "v'chaper" with the word chaper having nothing to do etymologically with a sacrifice. So you are hanging your hat on a comma and a word that one translator chose, instead of the Hebrew and the word that other translators chose. That speaks for itself.
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Pity we can't speak to the translators of the JPS, because it's their translation from the Hebrew that uses the word 'expiate'.
    Had the incense burning been used to atone, there would have been no need to use 'AND' in the sentence. The translation could have read, 'put on the atoning incense' but it doesn't. It separates the incense burning from the expiatory ritual, intentionally.

    At Yom Kippur, the greatest of the days given to atonement, we have a graphic picture of the expiatory nature of the service. [Lev. 16:3-10; 23:26-32; and Num.29:7-11]
    Here's a glimpse: JPS, Leviticus 16:6, 'Aaron is to offer his own bull of sin offering, to make expiation for himself and for his household.'

    The bull is Aaron's sin offering, and it is used to make expiation for himself and his household.

    [This isn't about whether I'm right. It's about what God is revealing to us!]
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I think it best we postpone the marriage until you admit that 'without shedding of blood is no remission' [of sin]!
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I am happy to acknowledge that I do have faith, but for me faith involves both the head and the heart!

    The big difference between our approaches to history is that you rely wholly on secular documentation and archaeological discovery. From my perspective of faith, the Bible contributes the richest source of reliable historical information. Time and time again, the information provided by the Bible is proved to be correct.

    Luke understood clearly that Herod the Great had registered the Jews of Judea [in 4BC] in response to Caesar Augustus' request. This was not a typical Roman census, and therefore does not appear in Roman accounts. That is why, in accordance with Jewish custom, the registration of Joseph and Mary took place in the ancestral town of Bethlehem.

    If you look closely at the relationship between Herod and Augustus, which was marred by Herod's support of Antonius (Mark Antony), you will see that Herod was doing his best to ingratiate himself with Augustus. Herod wanted freedom to deal with his own sons, and to demonstrate to Rome that a Jewish king could govern effectively over a distinctively Jewish territory (Judea).
     
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  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Thanks for your post.
    I cannot reply now but will do so tonight or tomorrow.
     
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    A side note: the 1917 JPS was heavily based on the KJV. But you quoted a side note which wouldn't be a function of translation. The problem isn't the word "expiation" -- it is your belief that this refers to a specific thing which is absent in the Hebrew. You look at the etymology of the English and ignore the etymology of the Hebrew. That's a problem for you, not me.
    Sure there would -- and indicates a chronological series of events -- light the incense and atone for the people. The second use is even more explicit (17:12) "and he gave the incense and he atoned for the people." The two are linked by the "and". Think about "light a candle and banish the darkness." Those aren't two separate actions. "Open the book and see for yourself" -- doing the first causes the second.
    No, it couldn't because that's not the way the Hebrew reads.
    Citing a day on which there were sacrifices does nothing to affect the fact that in other cases, there was no sacrifice needed. On Yom Kippur, the atonement ritual required special clothes, but on a Tuesday, it didn't. That doesn't change Tuesday.
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Leviticus chapters 6 and 7 (JPS) deals with priestly rituals in the Tabernacle. We can be sure of this because it says in the concluding verses, 7:37,38:
    'Such are the rituals of the burnt offering, the meal offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, the offering of ordination, and the sacrifice of well-being, with which the LORD charged Moses on Mount Sinai, when He commanded that the Israelites present their offerings to the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.'

    Now we return to Numbers 17:12, where Aaron makes an atonement for the congregation (v.46). He does so because they have sinned. So Aaron is going to make a sin offering to stop the plague.

    In Leviticus 6:17-23 the ritual for sin offering is explained. It says, 'the sin offering shall be slaughtered before the LORD, at the spot where the burnt offering is slaughtered: it is most holy.'

    If, by any chance, I have called their offense a sin, when, in fact, it was a trespass, then we have this to follow [Lev. 7:7]; 'The guilt [trespass] offering is like the sin offering. The same rule applies to both: it shall belong to the priest who makes expiation thereby.'

    Psalm 141:2 [JPS]' Take my prayer as an offering of incense, my upraised hands as an evening sacrifice.'

    Incense and sacrifice go together in ritual, but are nevertheless two quite distinct components. The conclusion must be that Aaron offered BOTH incense and the blood of a sacrifice to deliver the congregation from the plague.
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity ✔ a-OK RF member .99/lb
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    First admit you didn't know the context. I provided it, because I wanted to be nice. Nevertheless you ought to be doing your own homework. Paul is apparently toxic for you since you won't research the background. Quote mining him is a mistake. I'm not kidding you.
     
  14. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Boy am I happy I can see Pauls writings in a different light. ;) They give meaning for us all, to ensure we can be a true and loyal follower of Jesus the Christ, and as such await the end of age Messiah. The one the Jews await to fulfill their years of expectations.

    I am confident all that has been recorded, in both the Tanaka and the New Testament, can be relied upon for us to grasp who that Messiah will be.

    So much confidence in the fact that many millions have also seen it much in the same way. These people are Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims and many that had no faith, who now all embrace those biblical promises.

    The world is indeed a strange place, but we can rest in the knowledge that G_d Doeth as He Willeth and that is a part of the Covenant we can not ignore.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, you see, that's the problem you have. He ISN'T going to make a sin offering, or any offering. The text says what he is going to do. You have decided that the text is leaving something out. That's called an invention on your part. The "sin offering" is a korban chatat which, first, isn't vicarious, so Aaron couldn't offer it for the people, and second, only applied to particular unintentional sins which wasn't the case. So your interpolation of a sin sacrifice is doubly wrong.

    Now you are talking about a korban Asham which only relates to six particular categories of sin (none of which is the one mentioned in the text). The sacrifice is offered by the person to the priest who performs the sacrifice and the priests keep the extra and can eat the meat (that's the meaning of "it shall belong to the priest who makes expiation thereby." This is confirmed by 7:8 which adds that even the skin belongs to the priest even though it isn't eaten). So, again, the person involved has to bring the sacrifice to the priest and that doesn't happen here.
    You realize that this proves MY point, right? That prayer can replace sacrifice -- the upraised hands in prayer can be accounted as sacrifice meaning that no actual blood is spilled. Well done. Good point.
     
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  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity ✔ a-OK RF member .99/lb
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    I would disagree with any number of people, be it a trillion. I would breathe my last rather than bend, unless I were convinced. I'm as stubborn as an old fence post that won't come out. Try to change me, and you'll find its easier to warp spacetime. What am I? There are multiple answers possible.
     
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  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Ha ha that is the choice. Meet another stubborn person in me. Baha'u'llah has also said He would raise up people that if the whole world turned against them, they would still stand and proclaim, Behold the Promises have been fulfilled, the Messiah has come and all the Prophecy is fulfilled.

    Not the exact words.;)

    I am convinced and attest that is so.

    I wish you always well and happy in the stance you take.

    Regards Tony
     
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  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You can count the number of words on one hand. You are so full of baloney it's not funny.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You can try to overwhelm me if you want, but it won't work. I'm already familiar with this. Almost all of it is hogwash. There are a handful of words common between Ugarit and Hebrew. That's where the overlap ends. You have no argument.
     
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  20. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    'Getting Rival out of dungarees' is the answer.
     
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