Samael_Khan
Goosebender
That is a very cool interpretation. I have also thought of that. It is actually the Bible story I have read the most because good and evil always fascinates me in mythology.
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Eve and the Serpent - Jews and Christians
- Thread starter Samael_Khan
- Start date
That is a very cool interpretation. I have also thought of that. It is actually the Bible story I have read the most because good and evil always fascinates me in mythology.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Jews don't see "Satan" as fallen anything, but as an 'employee' of God. What I presented reflects my understanding as an Orthodox Jew.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
The mental condition is a pretty intriguing way of describing mans struggles with good and evil and how it has messed us up.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
firedragon
Veteran Member
Absolutely. According to the Tanakh Adam went on to live for some 930 years. He had kids, they mated too later way after this forbidden fruit incident. And anyway, I am sure you are fully aware of the other verses in the Tanakh.
Oh Im sorry. Yep. That happens. Even to me being a non-Christian.
In fact, you ask anyone, do a simple research face to face, almost everyone will say it was satan. Also, out of habit even I tend to say satan unless I am careful to hold myself.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I think one only gets that interpretation by reading the NT. I am more interested in the conclusions one comes to when reading the Torah on its own.
Which verse/s exactly?
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Many Christians say that it was the 1 day to God is 1000 years to man concept. But that is in a much later book and isn't in the Genesis context. That way they say that Adam physically died within a day. But your spiritual death understanding makes sense.
Yeah. The Christian understanding is so ingrained in our culture that we have automatic ideas about the bible ingrained in us. Another good example is the Nativity story retold at Christmas. A whole lot of made up ideas not in the Bible.Oh Im sorry. Yep. That happens. Even to me being a non-Christian.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
firedragon
Veteran Member
They also say "Day to year principle" which means one day is 365 days. This is what Millerism picked up, and the Bahai's also picked up from miller. So one has to ask from these people then which one they pick. Is it day to year, or day to millennium? So if its the latter, he lived a little less than a "day", if its the first, then he lived a little less than 3 days. Also then, 6 days of creation is in itself 6,000 years, or is it 365 X 6? Did God rest for 365 days or a 1000 days?
Do you see the dilemma in this kind of thing?Absolutely.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I never knew that about the Day to year principle.They also say "Day to year principle" which means one day is 365 days. This is what Millerism picked up, and the Bahai's also picked up from miller. So one has to ask from these people then which one they pick. Is it day to year, or day to millennium? So if its the latter, he lived a little less than a "day", if its the first, then he lived a little less than 3 days. Also then, 6 days of creation is in itself 6,000 years, or is it 365 X 6? Did God rest for 365 days or a 1000 days?
I see the dilemma here, which is something I am always criticizing Bible interpretations about: There is no consistent standard of interpretation. They subjectively choose the formula they want based of what suits their agenda, which is why there isn't consistency among them.
rosends
Well-Known Member
He is an expression of temptation, and a prosecutor when we fall to temptation. He is the cop who is allowed to entrap us and the DA who prosecutes us when we let ourselves be trapped.
Depend on how you interpret scripture:
2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Day year principle was predominantly used by the 7th day adventists and the Bahai's in the 19th century. It was Millerism first, where this guy called William Miller developed this idea of calculating two main bible prophecies to predict the advent of Jesus. This "advent" concept gave birth to the 7th day "adventists". You should search for "the great disappointment". Where this so called "national movement" had their great disappointment in the years 1843 to 1844 where their expected return of the Christ never happened. Much later, the man called Abdul Baha came and said that this prophecy was actually fulfilled. It was "Bahaullah".
Miller picked this up from old Jewish and to a higher degree, Christian guys who were taking this day year principle far too seriously, then it kept going until finally Abdul Baha takes this all, mixes everything, adds even a lunar year into it in order to make bahaullah the second coming of Jesus.
Its a great tool really. A lot of people used it. Most of them used it post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Interesting stuff.
Well...you mean...as if God was the impartial judge of a Court, whereas Satan was the prosecutor...in a penal trial?
It does make sense, btw.
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Leaving a bottle full of poison in the middle of a room, completely accessible to kids, is also a sort of criminal behavior.
ciao
- viole
Hi @Israel Khan
THE FALL OF EVE, AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE FALL OF ADAM, AND THE FIRST "SIN" IN THE GARDEN WAS NOT PARTAKING OF FRUIT
Israel Khan said in the OP : Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.
1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died. .” (O.P.)
While the patriarchal societies tended to speak of the men and women got little attention (with some exceptions), it’s been long noted in the Jewish rabbinic anthologies that Adams first “sin” was not the partaking of wisdom and knowledge of good and evil but rather the first sin, and the one that actually contributed to Eve’s fall was that Adam gave a false description of God’s prohibition to Eve.
For example, In the Jewish Haggadic version of the fall, the text starts out with Lucifer (devil/serpent/etc.) saying to Eve : “Is it true that God hath said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree in the Garden?’ We may,” rejoined Eve, “eat of the fruit of all the trees in the Garden, except that which is in the midst of the Garden, and that we may not even touch, lest we be stricken with death.” She spoke thus, because in his zeal to guard her against the transgressing of the divine command, Adam had forbidden Eve to touch the tree, though God had mentioned only the eating of the truth....It was Adam’s exaggeration that afforded the serpent the possibility of persuading Eve to taste of the forbidden fruit.
The serpent pushed Eve against the tree, and said: “You see that touching the tree has not caused your death. As little will it hurt you to eat the fruit of the tree. […] ” Now Eve could not but say to herself, “All that my master” – so she called Adam – “commanded me is but lies,” and she determined to follow the advice of the serpent” The Haggadah (The Fall of Man)
The point is obvious that the elaboration added by Adam when telling Eve regarding the prohibition from either partaking or touching the fruit that would give them moral wisdom, contributed to her reasoning and doubting Adams description of what he and Eve were to do and were not to do.
In such descriptions, a naïve and immature and inexperienced, but intelligent Eve may have had some justification for doubting Adams description and this accurate (but sly) use of information by lucifer, contributed to Eve having taken of the fruit (since she then had legitimate reason to doubt the prohibition itself).
While the rabbinics often split hairs, I can’t fault their logic in this point that adam’s embellishment of God’s commandment to Eve could be seen as the first sin which contributed to Eve's decision to partake of the fruit of moral knowledge. Thus, at that point in time, she had eaten and Adam had not yet eaten. So, she would fall and adam would remain alone in the garden if he did not also eat. (If no other contingencies came into play).
DO NOT "EMBELLISH" GODS WORDS - DEUT 4:2
The rabbinic anthologies use this tradition of Adamic "embellishment" of Gods' words, and its' contribution to the "fall" of Adam as one reason for the prohibition in Deuteronomy that we are neither add to or take away from what Gods words actually are (Deuteronomy 4:2).
ONCE EVE EATS AND WILL "FALL", ADAM IS FACED WITH A CHOICE
Eves’ fall, presented Adam with a dilemma. His choices are to either eat of the fruit or not eat.
If he eats, he may stay with eve and multiply (and thus obey God’s first command to him), but he will then become mortal and ultimately die.
OR
If he doesn't eat, he will separate from fallen Eve and thus not be able to obey the first commandment of multiply and replenish the earth.
Whether right or wrong, Adam chose to eat (which meant he would stay with Eve, and they would "multiply" and replenish the earth - i.e. the first commandment).
THE GAINING OF MORAL WISDOM (KNOWLEDGE) AND ITS ROLE IN MORTALITY
Israel Khan said in the OP : 2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life. .” (O.P.)
While God’s reason for not letting them eat of the tree of life is a different issue, I do agree that Adam and Eve did become more like God by gaining moral knowledge and wisdom. In fact, Jewish Enoch calls the tree, “the tree of Wisdom”.
Even the simple phrase “Behold, Adam has become as one of us…” (ιδου αδαμ γεγονεν ως εις εξ ημων... Gen 3:22 LXX) refers to an early conceptual definition of what it meant to be “like” God (or “God-like), and importantly, it had it's own historical context.
For example :
Rashi says this verse in the masoretic tells us Adam became “like the Unique One among us” (notice the Hebrew flavors it differently…).
The great Rashi rabbi explains that this means that at that point, Man had acquired the ability to discriminate between good and evil; (a characteristic God already had but which Adam had just acquired.)
While It has become popular for Christianity to view the fall of Adam as a moral accident of sorts, something unexpected, which foiled Gods’ original plan for man, (which then necessitated the development of a hasty “plan B” involving a savior).
However, this was not the early Judeo-Christian view of the fall.
In early Judeo-Christianity, the gaining of moral Wisdom was the expected outcome of an omniscient Gods’ ORIGINAL plan.
For example, Christian Diognetus relates that before Adam was introduce into this world, Gods plan was to reveal knowledge to all who entered mortality, saying : "And when he (God) revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.” (Diog 301:8-11)
Such early Christian texts explain that the purpose of the plan involving mortality was to “share in the benefits and see and understand things”; i.e. to gain wisdom. This is the very thing Adam and Eve sought to gain FROM the tree of wisdom.
If the gaining of wisdom WAS the very thing God wanted to share with man, then it was as much a Jewish doctrine as a Christian one. In fact, the dead sea scrolls celebrate God’s giving of knowledge and understanding (wisdom) to Adam :
“…You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…” (Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q504 - 506)
In explaining Adam’s assignment upon the earth, God says of the pre-eminent Adam :
“...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom. “ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
God continues explaining to Enoch regarding Adam :
“And there was nothing comparable to him on the earth, even among my creatures that exist.... I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’.... “ (2nd Enoch 30:13-15)
The text continues on to explain reasons WHY God wanted to give Adam (and all of the rest of us) knowledge and wisdom :
“...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. 16 Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin.” (2nd Enoch 30:15-17)
There was something even “more lamentable” about an eternal existence in moral ignorance and social unrest than a temporary and limited sin IF it contributed to mankind acquiring moral wisdom sufficient to live in eternal social joy and harmony.
The texts also make clear that mankind had to understand moral law BEFORE mankind could understand EITHER moral reward OR moral punishment BASED on moral law.
When the Prophet Baruch complains about apparent inconsistencies in reward and punishment in mortality, God explains the principle underlying this moral education. God tells Baruch : “... your judgment about the evils which befell those who sin is incorrect. ... ....listen and I shall speak to you; pay attention and I shall let my words be heard. It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. And with regard to the righteous ones,... this world is to them a struggle and an effort with much trouble. And that according which will come, a crown with great glory.” (The Apocalypse of Baruch 15:1 and 5-7)
In this early model, If man was not educated regarding good and evils they do, they would not understand the rewards nor the punishments that follow moral actions nor would they have understood the ultimate justice of God’s judgment.
LUCIFER / THE SERPENT / THE DEVIL / SATAN WAS PUNISHED FOR SOMETHING HE DID OR TRIED TO DO
Israel Khan said in the OP : God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.” (O.P.)
While the specific reason God punishes Lucifer (the devil/serpent/satan) is a bit more complicated in the earliest commentaries and literature, it is interesting that Adam is not punished specifically for the specific act of gaining moral wisdom, but instead, the early Judeo-Christian commentaries describe how God continues giving Adam the very knowledge Adam sought i.e. moral wisdom.
LUCIFERS EVIL MOTIVES AND ACTIONS BEGAN BEFORE THE GARDEN OF EDEN
While the early Jewish, Christian and Islamic literature all agree on the circumstances surrounding the fall of Lucifer from an angel of authority and his descent as he becomes Gods enemy, the controversy involved Adam and Adams pre-eminent role in the inauguration of mortality for mankind.
While orthodox Judaism forbids the discussion of events in this time period (pre-creation time period when such events took place), the early Jewish Literature, as well as the Christian and Islamic Literature still describe in detail regarding why Lucifer became an enemy to both God AND Adam.
IF, the specific purpose of gaining moral knowledge and training was part of the expected purpose of mortality, it may be that Lucifer was not punished so much for “revealing the truth” as for his evil desires to undermine and destroy Gods original desires and plans.
At any rate Israel Khan, I think the early Jewish and Christian commentaries are insightful and interesting and often have more logical and intuitive models surrounding the fall of Adam than the later religious movements produced. Good luck coming up with your own models as to what was going on in these early time periods.
Clear
τωφυφιω
THE FALL OF EVE, AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE FALL OF ADAM, AND THE FIRST "SIN" IN THE GARDEN WAS NOT PARTAKING OF FRUIT
Israel Khan said in the OP : Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.
1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died. .” (O.P.)
While the patriarchal societies tended to speak of the men and women got little attention (with some exceptions), it’s been long noted in the Jewish rabbinic anthologies that Adams first “sin” was not the partaking of wisdom and knowledge of good and evil but rather the first sin, and the one that actually contributed to Eve’s fall was that Adam gave a false description of God’s prohibition to Eve.
For example, In the Jewish Haggadic version of the fall, the text starts out with Lucifer (devil/serpent/etc.) saying to Eve : “Is it true that God hath said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree in the Garden?’ We may,” rejoined Eve, “eat of the fruit of all the trees in the Garden, except that which is in the midst of the Garden, and that we may not even touch, lest we be stricken with death.” She spoke thus, because in his zeal to guard her against the transgressing of the divine command, Adam had forbidden Eve to touch the tree, though God had mentioned only the eating of the truth....It was Adam’s exaggeration that afforded the serpent the possibility of persuading Eve to taste of the forbidden fruit.
The serpent pushed Eve against the tree, and said: “You see that touching the tree has not caused your death. As little will it hurt you to eat the fruit of the tree. […] ” Now Eve could not but say to herself, “All that my master” – so she called Adam – “commanded me is but lies,” and she determined to follow the advice of the serpent” The Haggadah (The Fall of Man)
The point is obvious that the elaboration added by Adam when telling Eve regarding the prohibition from either partaking or touching the fruit that would give them moral wisdom, contributed to her reasoning and doubting Adams description of what he and Eve were to do and were not to do.
In such descriptions, a naïve and immature and inexperienced, but intelligent Eve may have had some justification for doubting Adams description and this accurate (but sly) use of information by lucifer, contributed to Eve having taken of the fruit (since she then had legitimate reason to doubt the prohibition itself).
While the rabbinics often split hairs, I can’t fault their logic in this point that adam’s embellishment of God’s commandment to Eve could be seen as the first sin which contributed to Eve's decision to partake of the fruit of moral knowledge. Thus, at that point in time, she had eaten and Adam had not yet eaten. So, she would fall and adam would remain alone in the garden if he did not also eat. (If no other contingencies came into play).
DO NOT "EMBELLISH" GODS WORDS - DEUT 4:2
The rabbinic anthologies use this tradition of Adamic "embellishment" of Gods' words, and its' contribution to the "fall" of Adam as one reason for the prohibition in Deuteronomy that we are neither add to or take away from what Gods words actually are (Deuteronomy 4:2).
ONCE EVE EATS AND WILL "FALL", ADAM IS FACED WITH A CHOICE
Eves’ fall, presented Adam with a dilemma. His choices are to either eat of the fruit or not eat.
If he eats, he may stay with eve and multiply (and thus obey God’s first command to him), but he will then become mortal and ultimately die.
OR
If he doesn't eat, he will separate from fallen Eve and thus not be able to obey the first commandment of multiply and replenish the earth.
Whether right or wrong, Adam chose to eat (which meant he would stay with Eve, and they would "multiply" and replenish the earth - i.e. the first commandment).
THE GAINING OF MORAL WISDOM (KNOWLEDGE) AND ITS ROLE IN MORTALITY
Israel Khan said in the OP : 2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life. .” (O.P.)
While God’s reason for not letting them eat of the tree of life is a different issue, I do agree that Adam and Eve did become more like God by gaining moral knowledge and wisdom. In fact, Jewish Enoch calls the tree, “the tree of Wisdom”.
Even the simple phrase “Behold, Adam has become as one of us…” (ιδου αδαμ γεγονεν ως εις εξ ημων... Gen 3:22 LXX) refers to an early conceptual definition of what it meant to be “like” God (or “God-like), and importantly, it had it's own historical context.
For example :
Rashi says this verse in the masoretic tells us Adam became “like the Unique One among us” (notice the Hebrew flavors it differently…).
The great Rashi rabbi explains that this means that at that point, Man had acquired the ability to discriminate between good and evil; (a characteristic God already had but which Adam had just acquired.)
While It has become popular for Christianity to view the fall of Adam as a moral accident of sorts, something unexpected, which foiled Gods’ original plan for man, (which then necessitated the development of a hasty “plan B” involving a savior).
However, this was not the early Judeo-Christian view of the fall.
In early Judeo-Christianity, the gaining of moral Wisdom was the expected outcome of an omniscient Gods’ ORIGINAL plan.
For example, Christian Diognetus relates that before Adam was introduce into this world, Gods plan was to reveal knowledge to all who entered mortality, saying : "And when he (God) revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.” (Diog 301:8-11)
Such early Christian texts explain that the purpose of the plan involving mortality was to “share in the benefits and see and understand things”; i.e. to gain wisdom. This is the very thing Adam and Eve sought to gain FROM the tree of wisdom.
If the gaining of wisdom WAS the very thing God wanted to share with man, then it was as much a Jewish doctrine as a Christian one. In fact, the dead sea scrolls celebrate God’s giving of knowledge and understanding (wisdom) to Adam :
“…You have done wonders of old, and awesome deeds long ago. You fashioned Adam, our father, in the image of Your glory; You breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and filled him with understanding and knowledge. You set him to rule over the garden of Eden that you had planted…and to walk about in a glorious land…” (Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q504 - 506)
In explaining Adam’s assignment upon the earth, God says of the pre-eminent Adam :
“...(as my) image he knows the word like (no) other....11 and on the earth I assigned him to be a second angel, honored and great and glorious. 12 And I assigned him to be a king, to reign on the earth, and to have my wisdom. “ (2nd Enoch 30:10-12)
God continues explaining to Enoch regarding Adam :
“And there was nothing comparable to him on the earth, even among my creatures that exist.... I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’.... “ (2nd Enoch 30:13-15)
The text continues on to explain reasons WHY God wanted to give Adam (and all of the rest of us) knowledge and wisdom :
“...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. 16 Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin.” (2nd Enoch 30:15-17)
There was something even “more lamentable” about an eternal existence in moral ignorance and social unrest than a temporary and limited sin IF it contributed to mankind acquiring moral wisdom sufficient to live in eternal social joy and harmony.
The texts also make clear that mankind had to understand moral law BEFORE mankind could understand EITHER moral reward OR moral punishment BASED on moral law.
When the Prophet Baruch complains about apparent inconsistencies in reward and punishment in mortality, God explains the principle underlying this moral education. God tells Baruch : “... your judgment about the evils which befell those who sin is incorrect. ... ....listen and I shall speak to you; pay attention and I shall let my words be heard. It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. And with regard to the righteous ones,... this world is to them a struggle and an effort with much trouble. And that according which will come, a crown with great glory.” (The Apocalypse of Baruch 15:1 and 5-7)
In this early model, If man was not educated regarding good and evils they do, they would not understand the rewards nor the punishments that follow moral actions nor would they have understood the ultimate justice of God’s judgment.
LUCIFER / THE SERPENT / THE DEVIL / SATAN WAS PUNISHED FOR SOMETHING HE DID OR TRIED TO DO
Israel Khan said in the OP : God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.” (O.P.)
While the specific reason God punishes Lucifer (the devil/serpent/satan) is a bit more complicated in the earliest commentaries and literature, it is interesting that Adam is not punished specifically for the specific act of gaining moral wisdom, but instead, the early Judeo-Christian commentaries describe how God continues giving Adam the very knowledge Adam sought i.e. moral wisdom.
LUCIFERS EVIL MOTIVES AND ACTIONS BEGAN BEFORE THE GARDEN OF EDEN
While the early Jewish, Christian and Islamic literature all agree on the circumstances surrounding the fall of Lucifer from an angel of authority and his descent as he becomes Gods enemy, the controversy involved Adam and Adams pre-eminent role in the inauguration of mortality for mankind.
While orthodox Judaism forbids the discussion of events in this time period (pre-creation time period when such events took place), the early Jewish Literature, as well as the Christian and Islamic Literature still describe in detail regarding why Lucifer became an enemy to both God AND Adam.
IF, the specific purpose of gaining moral knowledge and training was part of the expected purpose of mortality, it may be that Lucifer was not punished so much for “revealing the truth” as for his evil desires to undermine and destroy Gods original desires and plans.
At any rate Israel Khan, I think the early Jewish and Christian commentaries are insightful and interesting and often have more logical and intuitive models surrounding the fall of Adam than the later religious movements produced. Good luck coming up with your own models as to what was going on in these early time periods.
Clear
τωφυφιω
Last edited:
74x12
Well-Known Member
Well if you want the serpent to be the good guy that much then no one can stop you. But the fact is Eve did die and so did Adam. So the serpent caused their death and if you want the Biblical perspective ... he caused the death of every human being that comes afterwards.Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.
1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.
2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.
God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.
So says the devils advocate...
Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.
I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.
Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.
Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.
I guess the Genesis tale is just an allegory.