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Featured European Christian Heritage

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    Well, Britain's industrial revolution and enclosure acts against common agricultural land were the blueprints for the Soviet's industrialisation and collectivisation policies. The Ukrainian famine in 1931 was basically a carbon copy of the Irish Potato famine in the 1840s because both Britain and the USSR exported agricultural produce to fund industrialisation when it could have fed people at home. Soviet bureaucrats visited London's shopping centres to come up with the designs for marketing consumer goods in the 1930's. The Soviets adopted more market based approaches under the New Economic Policy, the Khrushchev reforms in the 1950s and Perestroika in the 1980s. And the Communist Party in China adoption of market economics transformed the country in recent decades.

    Marxists can handle recognising the value of the past and trying to preserve it whilst believing we should improve on it. Communists weren't afraid to borrow Nazi designs for the V2 to design missiles and spacecraft, put satellites and dogs in space with Newtonian mechanics, built the atom bomb with Einstein's theory of relativity (and a fair amount of espionage), published, read and performed the collected works of Shakespeare in Soviet theatres, and Lenin was embalmed because of the craze for mummification after the discovery of Tutankhamen tomb in Egypt in 1922.

    So- to get back to the thread- you can preserve cultural and historical works, monuments and sites, like Churches, without opposing them based on their social or ideological origins. It would be nihilistic not to try and preserve the past.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    No, the concept of Europe as a unified political entity and perception even as a continent district from Asia is a Christian conception. You can't divorce the concept of Europe as an entity from Christianity.
     
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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    Yes, I agree. I think the devil will be in the details of what "some" means.
     
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  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Sure, but Europa is not just Christianity. It is in part that.
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I'm not suggesting it's just Christianity, no, but that it wouldn't have come into existence without Christianity.
     
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  6. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Well no one should be burning down any Churches. But loss of cultural heritage is a bit of a stretch. Unless all the burned down Churches were recognised as Cultural Heritage sites?
     
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  7. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Before they were Christian, they were pagan.
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I think folks are focusing a lot on the burning, which may be my fault.

    I'm just sad at the loss of and lack of care for churches in general and surprised at the apathy I see about it.
     
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  9. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Nor would it be the Europa it is today without other cultural influences. So we agree.
     
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  10. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Yes, but the idea of Europe as a unified entity was borne of Christianity. There was no concept of 'I'm a European' in the Pagan Era.
     
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  11. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    Remind me where you live?
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    And I'm highlighting Christianity because it is the biggest and most impactful by far.
     
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  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Ahh, now it gets to subjective for my taste.
     
  14. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Considering the diversity of religions, this could be true in some cases, but certainly not always. For instance, Donar's Oak in Germany and Pope Gregory 1 decreeing that Pagan sites be replaced by Christian altars.
     
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  15. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    It's not failing to care. It's simply a question of scale, cost and practicality. There are gazillions of churches all over Western Europe, dating from an era when everyone went to church and felt obliged to donate to their upkeep. That no longer applies.

    There is no justification for the average non-churchgoing taxpayer to stump up unlimited funds for the upkeep of thousands of redundant church buildings as empty museums.
     
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  16. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    He did, but I'm probably exclusively talking about Greco-Roman Pagan traditions, as Judaism and possibly Zoroastrianism had begun having big impacts on them. I couldn't point you to any sources, but it appears monotheism, not any particular religion associated therewith prior to Christianity, was already on the rise in these areas. It would be another reason why Christianity was so popular so early. Paganism came with a lot of built-in social inequalities in Greece and Rome, which I can imagine many wanted abolished - and these are the groups we see turning to Christianity first: slaves, women, outcasts etc.
     
    #156 Rival, Oct 19, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  17. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I guess we just disagree here. I argue against Christians non-stop on here and would agree to that tax so I dunno, maybe it's just me. I often find myself at odds with common beliefs and views in Europe :D
     
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  18. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Your OP reminded my of part of a quote where Europe is mentioned.

    Personally I see the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

    It is all falling apart, but there is hope.

    This is that part of a quote;

    ".... Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord, assisted by His grace from on high, strengthened by faith, aided by the power of understanding, and reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and make manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’”

    Basically I see we are at the beginning of a great transition in human affairs.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    Whilst I take your point and there is always going to be a finite amount of resources for conservation and preservation to go round, we bailout failing banks and throw money at defence companies like their is no tomorrow. The Space Program, as brilliant and inspirational as it was as an investment in science and technology, did become a vanity project once it got beyond the immediate goal of developing better missiles.

    I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of state subsidies or a "bailout" for Christianity as a whole because that sounds like treating it as an established church getting preferential treatment by the state. But if these buildings ceased to be places of religious worship, became public property, perhaps rented out to different businesses or groups with conditions on how they are used and were invested in and maintained for preservation, I wouldn't really object. It comes down to a question of prioritises in the end. Given the history, the art and the architecture, Churches would make great spaces for art galleries and museums for example.
     
  20. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    You have no idea what level of expenditure you would be agreeing to. And you do not speak for everyone who pays tax.

    If Bozo were to announce a huge programme on maintaining all the empty parish churches, the outcry would be immediate and from all sides: "How many people die every day in the NHS that could be saved with this money?" "What about collapsing school buildings?", "Why isn't this being spent on the police, to prevent another Sarah Everard murder?" etc., etc.

    And those questions would be rather good ones.

    In Britain the state does give grants for the upkeep of buildings of outstanding historical or architectural significance, and that keeps most of our great cathedrals from falling down. But there has to be a limit to the largesse.
     
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