European Christian Heritage

[Laika]

We don't live in the same Europa. I live in the Europa of human rights, secular, democratic and so on. That is also an European heritage.

Liberalism, the age of reason and the Enlightenment were born out of Christianity rather than simply in opposition to it. theological debates on the individual's soul, free will and natural law paved the way for ideas of human rights. Secularism was the consequence of a debate on the division between the public material worlds governed by man and the private spiritual and mental world governed by god.

It's part of the reason why that same European civilisation opposed communism because the world they imagined without God didn't see an inherent value in human beings and believed their rights came from the state and not nature (or God). So, the two are connected.

But yeah, I would love to have seen more Roman and Greek buildings, art and architecture preserved rather than demolished by Christians. They have their place in European culture as well, particularly as many Pagan beliefs and philosophies went on to influence Christianity. If we had kept the library of Alexandra it would have been a goldmine for starters and we might have had the Renaissance a lot sooner.

 

[Brinne]

Why was it a bad take? The OP was decrying apathy towards the problem, and personal initiative is not only the first step but a crucial step to solving apathy at the personal level.

Well generally because I believe many of our issues in society (discrimination, income inequality as well) are systematic issues that we often need to do more than just take personal action to make change.

 

[Augustus]

I'm happy to report that my local church is now housing, much more useful than a poorly attended church.

Housing for the affluent is more useful than low-cost, multi-function community space of the kind that won't be replaced?

The ghost of Thatcher is alive and kicking

 

[Rival]

I do care. I voluntarily pay my state church taxes. I just don't like that you tell me, what I must do to please you, because you are the judge of it.

It's not to please me. It's to please your ancestors who are crying out from beyond about what has happened the the nations they built. It's about Europe as a concept, a heritage, a thing unto itself. I'm not asking you to do it for me, I'm asking you to do it for you and your people, your children's children and their heritage.

 

[Kooky]

Well for one I’d probably recommend so physical protections for churches under threat. In my city we utilized protective coverings for stained glass for example.

Who is paying for those protective coverings? The tax paying public, I presume?

From a policy stand point I think the issue tends to be lack of incentive for the preservation of existing build stock. Though I think funding to preserve structures of cultural importance (whether Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, secular whatever) is generally a good thing. Since I’m generally opposed to the Corbusierfication of urban spaces.

The argument however was specifically about Christian buildings - in fact OP was very clear that they despised the existence of Muslim buildings in the same cities. So it very much appears to me like this discussion is not about preserving structures of cultural importance in general, but specifically about preserving Christian structures, and only those.

I’m not sure how to address issues of arson because my background is in preservation of the build environment not criminal justice. I guess investigate for why there’s such a rise in these arson cases?

This assumes that there is an actual rise in arson cases; a dubious proposition I would argue, considering the widespread danger arson and fires in general have always presented to traditionally build architecture, Christian or not.

 

[Kooky]

It's not to please me. It's to please your ancestors who are crying out from beyond about what has happened the the nations they built. It's about Europe as a concept, a heritage, a thing unto itself. I'm not asking you to do it for me, I'm asking you to do it for you and your people, your children's children and their heritage.

Mikkel already told you he's giving them money even though they do not represent him or his beliefs.
What else do you want from him?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Liberalism, the age of reason and the Enlightenment were born out of Christianity rather than simply in opposition to it. theological debates on the individual's soul, free will and natural law paved the way for ideas of human rights. Secularism was the consequence of a debate on the division between the public material worlds governed by man and the private spiritual and mental world governed by god.

It's part of the reason why that same European civilisation opposed communism because the world they imagined without God didn't see an inherent value in human beings and believed their rights came from the state and not nature (or God). So, the two are connected.

But yeah, I would love to have seen more Roman and Greek buildings, art and architecture preserved rather than demolished by Christians. They have their place in European culture as well, particularly as many Pagan beliefs and philosophies went on to influence Christianity. If we had kept the library of Alexandra it would have been a goldmine for starters and we might have had the Renaissance a lot sooner.

Yeah, I am a culture Christian and an atheist. Please stay out of my personal religion. We have fought enough wars in the past about that and how figure out how to do religion. It is personal.
Christian is what is today, because we made it personal and individual. That is a part of the above history. So are the wars about religion.

 

[Kooky]

Liberalism, the age of reason and the Enlightenment were born out of Christianity rather than simply in opposition to it.

The Thirty Years War, the Hussite Wars, and the French Wars of Religion tell a different story.

The Enlightenment and its Secular Humanism were "born out of" Christianity in the same sense as Marxism was "born out of" Liberal Capitalism: They were reactions against the very real and material negative, in many cases devastating, effects these phenomena had on the people of Europe.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's not to please me. It's to please your ancestors who are crying out from beyond about what has happened the the nations they built. It's about Europe as a concept, a heritage, a thing unto itself. I'm not asking you to do it for me, I'm asking you to do it for you and your people, your children's children and their heritage.

Yeah, that is your belief system, not mine. My Europa is not the same as yours. What now? Shall we play "Bet Kinder, bet. Morgen kommt der Swede". I know my history and I won't bow to your version of it.

 

[Spiderman]

I can see it was a mistake expecting the European denizens of RF to care

I actually used to share what I thought the solution was, but my posts got too many reports, so I can't really talk about my views regarding what Europe might need at this point!

 

[Rival]

Yeah, that is your belief system, not mine. My Europa is not the same as yours. What now? Shall we play "Bet Kinder, bet. Morgen kommt der Swede". I know my history and I won't bow to your version of it.

What are you talking about?

How is me saying European history is Christian and we should preserve it a belief system? Do you not have a sense of pride in yourself about where you come from and who you are?

I guess not. I guess progressives believe in the world citizen nonsense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What are you talking about?

How is me saying European history is Christian and we should preserve it a belief system? Do you not have a sense of pride in yourself about where you come from and who you are?

I guess not. I guess progressives believe in the world citizen nonsense.

You claim European heritage and history and you don't the significance of "Bet Kinder, bet. Morgen kommt der Swede". Well, that tells me all I need to know.
You don't know a very relevant part of Christian European history and yet you claim to know it.
BTW the idea of being a cosmopolitan is Greek.

 

[Augustus]

Liberalism, the age of reason and the Enlightenment were born out of Christianity rather than simply in opposition to it. theological debates on the individual's soul, free will and natural law paved the way for ideas of human rights. Secularism was the consequence of a debate on the division between the public material worlds governed by man and the private spiritual and mental world governed by god.

But admitting this would puncture their emotionally satisfying illusions, so fans of the mythical "Enlightenment Values" prefer to pretend they emerged fully formed from a virgin's womb.

On this issue, they have the intellectual curiosity of a young earth creationist presented with a text on geology.

If we had kept the library of Alexandra it would have been a goldmine for starters and we might have had the Renaissance a lot sooner.

The library contained nothing unique and it's gradual decline had a negligible impact on history.

And we did get reniassances before self-congratulatory "Renaissance" which was the most overrated era in history and was arguably far less progressive than the medieval period.

 

[Rival]

This thread kind of exemplifies why this is happening.

Europeans apparently want Europe to be a cultureless pit where our own heritages and culture are burned up to roaring cries of 'progress' as our ancestors scream from their graves.

 

[Augustus]

The Enlightenment and its Secular Humanism were "born out of" Christianity in the same sense as Marxism was "born out of" Liberal Capitalism:

So Marx was a Liberal capitalist who underpinned his theories with Liberal capitalist philosophy?

Interesting...

 

[Left Coast]

Is being ruined.

One religious building is disappearing in France every two weeks.

That is the conclusion of Edouard de Lamaze, president of the Observatoire du patrimoine religieux (Observatory of Religious Heritage) in Paris.

[...]

Lamaze told CNA in an interview that in addition to one religious building disappearing every two weeks -- by demolition, transformation, destruction by fire, or collapse -- two-thirds of fires in religious buildings are due to arson.

[...]

“Although Catholic monuments are still ahead, one mosque is erected every 15 days in France, while one Christian building is destroyed at the same pace,” Lamaze said. “It creates a tipping point on the territory that should be taken into account.”

[...]

According to the most recent figures from France’s central criminal intelligence unit, 877 attacks on Catholic places of worship were recorded across the country in 2018 alone.

“These figures have increased fivefold in only 10 years,” Lamaze said, noting that 129 churches were vandalized in 2008.

Why France is losing one religious building every two weeks

More than 10 churches a year are closing in Wales, figures have shown.

Data from the Church in Wales showed 115 Anglican churches have closed over a 10-year period, about 8% of the total, with 1,319 still in use.

110 Anglican churches closed in Wales in 10 years

C of E bishop warns of church closures due to Covid financial losses

Please stand up for your heritage, Europe! What is wrong with you?

If someone were burning all the synagogues and mosques it'd be an outcry, but churches? That's fine. The state and the people will do nothing.

I'm not a Christian and this upsets me. Get your act together, Europe.

Seems to me we've got a couple different things going on here.

#1, people shouldn't be burning buildings down (unless they own them, I guess), whether they're houses of worship or not. So that's bad and should be condemned.

#2, it seems to me there's an obvious difference between what is happening with Europe's churches as a broad trend and how most anyone would respond to mass arson of any type of religious buildings. Churches are being closed down in Europe because no one attends them. Not because people would otherwise be attending them but aronists keep burning them down en masse or something.

#3, I don't see the need, nor has an argument been thus far presented in this thread, to cling to every aspect of "our heritage" simply because it's ours. "Take the best and leave the rest," as the saying goes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This thread kind of exemplifies why this is happening.

Europeans apparently want Europe to be a cultureless pit where our own heritages and culture are burned up to roaring cries of 'progress' as our ancestors scream from their graves.

Being a world citizen is a Greek idea. You are as subjective as the rest of us.

 

[RestlessSoul]

There’s still plenty of churches in London, they haven’t all been turned into snooker halls and bingo parlours, nor into mosques. But If Muslims want to gather together and practice their religion, and Christians generally don’t, what can be done to change that, even if one considers it important?

The OPs respect for our European cultural heritage is admirable; but things change. C’est la vie, comme en dit en France.

 

[Rival]

Seems to me we've got a couple different things going on here.

#1, people shouldn't be burning buildings down (unless they own them, I guess), whether they're houses of worship or not. So that's bad and should be condemned.

#2, it seems to me there's an obvious difference between what is happening with Europe's churches as a broad trend and how most anyone would respond to mass arson of any type of religious buildings. Churches are being closed down in Europe because no one attends them. Not because people would otherwise be attending them but aronists keep burning them down en masse or something.

#3, I don't see the need, nor has an argument been thus far presented in this thread, to cling to every aspect of "our heritage" simply because it's ours. "Take the best and leave the rest," as the saying goes.

I'm not linking the burning and the closing. I was making several points.

In Europe many churches are seen as cultural icons by people, majority non-Christian, and are preserved intact even if non-functional. The idea that they are being closed and repurposed or demolished is heartbreaking.

To go with this, many have been vandalised and no-one seems to do anything about it. If 800+ synagogues were set afire in a year, this would be major news.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm not linking the burning and the closing. I was making several points.

In Europe many churches are seen as cultural icons by people, majority non-Christian, and are preserved intact even if non-functional. The idea that they are being closed and repurposed or demolished is heartbreaking.

To go with this, many have been vandalised and no-one seems to do anything about it. If 800+ synagogues were set afire in the same time period, this would be major news.

France is not Europa.