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Featured EU Court upholds Belgian ban on kosher and halal slaughter

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Altfish, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Animals aren't people.

    Now if you want to believe that it is wrong to raise and kill livestock for food you're free to that conviction. Good luck in convincing the world at large to adopt vegetarianism.

    Unnecessary according to whom? Unless you can show that the suffering inflicted on the animal is egregious - that is, significantly more severe than what is inflicted by secular means - then you're not going to convince me that there is a compelling state interest in banning long established (and religiously mandated) customs of ritual slaughter.
     
  2. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    This is correct. It is also true that people are animals.
     
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  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I did not say that, and definitely not implied that

    I never said it is wrong

    I don't "evangelize"
     
  4. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    You certainly did imply it. You said that religious freedom <> killing others. Who are these 'others'? The animals? Because as far as I can see no one is arguing for human sacrifice to be tolerated.

    Then your reply to me incoherent. If it is not wrong to kill an animal for meat then what is it exactly are you arguing?
     
  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I know best what I implied, don't you think?

    Religious Freedom is about the Freedom to believe whatever you want. Actions on the other hand fall under "the Law of the Country"

    I don't reply incoherently. You just misunderstood me

    Hinduism as I am taught is not about "right and wrong" and "sin"
    Hinduism is about "Dharmic and Adharmic"
    Big difference
     
    #125 stvdv, Dec 21, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Oh such a failure! If you are going to use a logical fallacy at first make sure that it apples.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Correct, animals are not people. They are still living organisms that can feel pain. It is immoral to unnecessarily cause pain, whether in a fellow human being or an animal. Those actions can be regulated since they affect others even if those others are not human. Religious freedom is a right of beliefs. It is not a right of actions.
     
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  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I know I'm introducing an argument rife with holes, but I find this particular ruling about slaughter to be specious at best. I don't know the rules in Belgium, but I know that there is horse racing there and I believe that horses, both in how they are raised and how they are raced, experience more pain and suffering through horse racing than a cow does through ritual slaughter. Are there pet shops that keep birds in cages? Do the stores sell rat poison or mouse traps? I find an inconsistency -- focusing on the seconds of possible suffering for some animals while ignoring extended pain for others. If I were a more cynical person, I might wonder why there is this fascination with potential suffering caused by methods of death that are expressions of religion, and not with potential suffering caused by methods of life that are expressions of culture.
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The Creator has yet to show up for a single meeting of Congress.
    Until then, our rights continue to be based upon interaction of
    voters, courts, Congresscritters, & Presidents.
    Animal rights & religious rights are gonna get increasingly fought
    over....so I predict.
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, your argument fails quite badly. It is also A bit of a Gish Gallop. It is best to pick out your best argument and go with that rather than trying to throw A whole bunch at the wall and see if any stick. My rule is refute one and you have refuted them all. So keeping that in mind your mouse and rat trap poisoning and trapping argument is a clear fail. The argument has always been for using the least pain necessary. Rats and mice can pass on disease and unchecked are a threat to our food supply. Those methods are necessary to prevent such threats to humanity. Please note that purposefully inflicting excessive pain is not allowed. A trap that tortures would be banned. Torture is purposefully inflicting pain on others. A trap that is not perfect is allowed since perfection is not a reasonable goal.

    So there. Argument refuted. Necessary pain can be justified.
     
  11. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    No I don't think because you're not making sense.

    No. Religious freedom includes the freedom to practice (manifest) religious belief as well. Otherwise the freedom is meaningless. Obviously, the freedom to manifest religious belief in action is not absolute. I accept that the state can restrict such action if there is a compelling reason of the common good. I'm not convinced that banning Jewish ritual slaughter is in the compelling interest of the common good.

    The assumption here is that allowing Jewish ritual slaughter is subjecting animals to 'unnecessary' pain. An assumption I don't share. Just because you don't see value in Jewish custom does not make it unnecessary. It is necessary for them [observant Jews]. And I resent the idea that the state ought to tell them otherwise.

    Religion includes action. The mere 'freedom' to hold beliefs in my head is meaningless. See my response to stvdv.
     
    #131 Musing Bassist, Dec 21, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, it is not an assumption. It is an observation. Please learn the difference. And yes, religious beliefs can include actions, but those actions can be limited. Historically some religions advocated the killing of nonbelievers. That action is limited. Now that sort of ban is being extended to some animals.
     
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  13. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    This is known:

    "In a 2018 study in the Italian Journal of Food Safety, slaughterhouse workers are instructed to wear ear protectors to protect their hearing from the constant screams of animals being killed. A 2004 study in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine found that "excess risks were observed for mortality from all causes, all cancers, and lung cancer" in workers employed in the New Zealand meat processing industry.

    The worst thing, worse than the physical danger, is the emotional toll. If you work in the stick pit [where hogs are killed] for any period of time—that let's [sic] you kill things but doesn't let you care. You may look a hog in the eye that's walking around in the blood pit with you and think, 'God, that really isn't a bad looking animal.' You may want to pet it. Pigs down on the kill floor have come up to nuzzle me like a puppy. Two minutes later I had to kill them - beat them to death with a pipe. I can't care.

    — Gail A. Eisnitz,
    Working at slaughterhouses often leads to a high amount of psychological trauma. A 2016 study in Organization indicates, "Regression analyses of data from 10,605 Danish workers across 44 occupations suggest that slaughterhouse workers consistently experience lower physical and psychological well-being along with increased incidences of negative coping behavior." In her thesis submitted to and approved by University of Colorado, Anna Dorovskikh states that slaughterhouse workers are "at risk of Perpetration-Inducted Traumatic Stress, which is a form of posttraumatic stress disorder and results from situations where the concerning subject suffering from PTSD was a causal participant in creating the traumatic situation." A 2009 study by criminologist Amy Fitzgerald indicates, "slaughterhouse employment increases total arrest rates, arrests for violent crimes, arrests for rape, and arrests for other sex offenses in comparison with other industries." As authors from the PTSD Journal explain, "These employees are hired to kill animals, such as pigs and cows that are largely gentle creatures. Carrying out this action requires workers to disconnect from what they are doing and from the creature standing before them. This emotional dissonance can lead to consequences such as domestic violence, social withdrawal, anxiety, drug and alcohol abuse, and PTSD.""
    (Wikipedia)

    Humans evolved to be hunter-gatherers, anyway.
    "The Creator" can be viewed as a rhetorical device in philosophy because "inherent rights" have to have a foundation somewhere. That whole line of thought is based on Christian philosophy, which the Enlightenment secularized.
     
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  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Would you happen to know if glue traps are illegal in Belgium? If you would prefer, i can focus on the concept of hunting instead of giving animals poison and letting them suffer (or using glue traps which also kill cats and birds). If you wish to lose sight of the forest for the trees, feel free.
     
    #134 rosends, Dec 21, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Okay . . . But no one is disputing that slaughterhouses are unpleasant places to work, whether kosher, halal, or neither. What is being discussed is whether some methods are less humane than others.
     
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  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Of course it matters (and I have an article from around 2008 which seems to indicate that there was a resolution to outlaw them in the EU but I have no follow up). If your argument is that only humane methods are allowed in killing mice, and that method is allowed, then either that method is humane, or your argument has a flaw.

    But that's not my point. My overarching statement was that the focus on only one area, while there are others which (in my very humble opinion) cause greater suffering seems selective and, were I suspicious of men's motives, problematic.
     
  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Duh. I was replying to @JustGeorge saying they don't have links or proof of what slaughterhouses are really like, so I showed that research has been done that backs her up. I shouldn't have to explain that. Calm down.
     
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  19. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    That shechita is any crueler than secular methods is a claimed observation.

    But killing animals for meat is not being banned.
     
  20. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    I stand by what I said. I think it apples. But as I tried to get over, fallacy games are not of interest to me.
     
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