1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured EU Court upholds Belgian ban on kosher and halal slaughter

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Altfish, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    218,905
    Ratings:
    +84,777
    Religion:
    Atheist
    As you show, tis always best to quote the relevant portions of a long link.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2019
    Messages:
    2,908
    Ratings:
    +4,130
    Religion:
    My Own Path
    Excellent point.

    What happens now beside this issue is god aweful. Feeding cows to cows, chickens to chickens, filling them with all kinds of steroids, forced breeding, etc etc...

    The meat industry is horrific.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Reliable statistics are always a must when making such claims. But that would be a problem for both sides it seems to me. So this may be a bit of a red herring.
     
  4. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    15,681
    Ratings:
    +15,637
    Religion:
    zen
    Thank you for taking the time.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    218,905
    Ratings:
    +84,777
    Religion:
    Atheist
    And when we do advocate for better slaughtering methods,
    we're met with accusations of hypocrisy for eating animals,
    accusations of religious bigotry, accusations of ignorance,
    & religious (someone else's) arguments.
    This ad hominem does not diminish the legitimacy of our concerns.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    15,681
    Ratings:
    +15,637
    Religion:
    zen
    "Animal slaughter is very dirty work. Although cows, sheep, pigs and chickens are the main victims, vulnerable humans are also being exploited and abused in secret. Psychologists say it’s causing post-traumatic stress disorder, perpetration-induced traumatic stress and a range of other horrifying syndromes. Unsurprisingly, studies have found that slaughterhouse work is connected to higher incidents of domestic violence, alcohol and drug abuse."

    - Opinion: Abattoir workers are the forgotten frontline victims at the heart of the coronavirus crisis

    - The harrowing psychological toll of slaughterhouse work
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,539
    Ratings:
    +1,715
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Although I believe both religions are wrong about this; I still support their religious liberty. I don't understand the big deal ... cut the animals throat or knock it on the head either way it's dead pretty fast. Seems hypocritical of the Belgians to care about the suffering animals so much that they are particular about the way the animal is slaughtered. You're still killing animals so don't pretend you're accomplishing anything for animals.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    218,905
    Ratings:
    +84,777
    Religion:
    Atheist
    And from what little I've read, the religious objections are weak.
    It seems more a matter of wanting to do that which they already do.
    I'd be pleased to see a cogent argument for it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That is a bit better. But it is still a red herring as far as this discussion goes.
     
  10. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    12,422
    Ratings:
    +11,798
    Religion:
    none
    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  11. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,014
    Ratings:
    +571
    IMO, alternative methods of slaughter can only be acceptable if they not merely guarantee less pain, but also guarantee death. Any method failing to guarantee death is unacceptable regardless.
     
  12. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    12,422
    Ratings:
    +11,798
    Religion:
    none
    Fixed that for you.

    The question is if laws, in a democracy, made by democratic processes, are universal or if some people can avoid to follow them by declaring themselves exceptional.
    For European countries the answer has been "the law applies to everyone" in most cases (though there are still some privileges in the book).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    15,681
    Ratings:
    +15,637
    Religion:
    zen
    If a person eats animals and simultaneously expresses concern then, as I said it either is due to genuine ignorance or it is hypocrisy. I would far rather someone said "I eat meat and I don't give a hoot for any welfare of the animals." That would be honesty.
     
  14. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    15,681
    Ratings:
    +15,637
    Religion:
    zen
    I shall retire.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    And this is a a black and white fallacy. One can eat animals and still strive to be humane. There have been some truly barbaric ways of eating animals. Eating live monkey brains is still a real thing. Tell me that that is no different from stunning an animal before slaughter.
     
  16. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    4,468
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Belgium sought to make the slaughter of food meat humane, so they wanted quick slaughter of a stunned animal. Jews argue that their way kills faster, so it is more humane. I suppose that there are medical scans (such as MRIs or CAT scans) that could analyze brain chemicals to try to understand if the animal was in pain.

    Antisemitic theists often use Jewish rites of slaughter to assert that Jews are bloodthirsty or locked in ancient pagan traditions of animal slaughter. They assert that it is akin to Satanic animal sacrifices. There still appears to be cultural rifts in understand one another.

    Jewish dietary laws are partly about avoiding illness (from a time before refrigeration) and partly about compassion for the animals.

    Thus, the orthodox Jewish tradition of not drinking the milk and eating the flesh of the same animal at the same meal is about not wanting to be too cruel to the animal.

    Pigs eat almost anything, and inherently are filthy and diseased. In the United States, today, much pig meat is salted. Pacific islanders can't stand the way the US processes the meat, since the taste is radically altered. Yet, it is that salt that kills (some) parasites and (some) bacteria. Cooking, of course, helps tremendously.

    The Christian and Muslim religions come from the Jewish religion, but many of the Jewish dietary laws are omitted in the Christian religion. Thus, Christians can eat pigs, whereas orthodox Jews cannot. It is common, in modern times for non-orthodox Jews to eat and enjoy pig meat. Usually, when an orthodox Jew first tastes bacon (if they ever dare to), it is like eating worms....disgusted at the thought of it.

    Making Kosher Meat

    Both Jewish kosher meat and Muslim halal meat is drained of blood. Jewish kosher meat is soaked in clean water for a half hour. Both kosher and halal meat is blessed by a religious person who inspects the kitchen for cleanliness violations, and inspects the process of making the holy food.

    Most of the gefilte fish made in the United States is processed in a small plant in Louisiana (Larry the Cable Guy just did a show about that...he focuses on uniquely American things). The gefilte fish, there, is made of carp. Carp is a bottom-feeding fish, so thought, by some, to be less clean than other fish. Carp life about 25 years, and goldfish are in the carp family.

    Jews don't eat shellfish, and some times of the year, there is red tide (which causes fish to be poison). I think that it is likely that Passover (marking Jewish houses so that God would not curse them by killing their kids) was really about Jewish kids surviving red tide shell fish by not eating it. Egyptians thought that it was a Jewish curse meant to kill off their first born sons (who likely had the pick of the best sea food).

    Jews are often blamed for surviving eras of bad food (they survive while non-Jews are poisoned by eating poisonous foods that their dietary laws don't prohibit).

    Jews are allowed to eat most insects.

    Some balk at Jewish ceremonies that involve swinging a chicken around one's head until its head falls off. If the chicken is not eaten afterwards, it amounts to a bloody animal sacrifice. Yet, it is a remembrance of quickly and humanely killing a chicken, and it is one way of eliminating the blood in the chicken.

    Blood in meat tends to rot it quickly. Thus, kosher and halal meat lasts a lot longer. Muslims were experts at transporting foods across burning desert sands on camel caravans, and that kind of exposure to elements would surely harm food if not protected. Additionally, the quick removal of blood eliminates adrenaline, which tastes bad. The blood in the meat makes the meat taste worse.

    It was Irish tradition to serve bacon and lettuce intentionally wilted in the bacon grease on Saint Patrick's day. But, when they came to America, they noticed that bacon was terribly expensive. So, instead, they used cheap Jewish corned beef and cheap cabbage, and that became the new Irish tradition.

    Many of the old recipes taste salty or pickled in vinegar. This is because those were preservatives in the days before refrigeration.

    Some Arab delicacies (goat eyeballs or goat testicles) seem off putting to Americans. As Cody Lundin (Dual Survivors TV show) pointed out, Americans have an aversion to eating insects or worms that many other cultures don't. I explained to Cody that I could survive on a tiny plastic card (charge it at a bed and breakfast...room service).

    Jews also stay healthier by getting a bris (slicing off the foreskin around the penis). If you are unfamiliar with Jewish traditions, I'd advise that you don't eat a small meat hors d'oeuvre when you are attending a bris.
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    218,905
    Ratings:
    +84,777
    Religion:
    Atheist
    For you, it might be so black & white.
    But I see a middle ground, ie, eat them,
    but do so while minimizing their agony.
    Anyone who doubts my honesty is a poopy head.
     
    #77 Revoltingest, Dec 20, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,395
    Ratings:
    +5,335
    Religion:
    Jewish
    From a faith standpoint, the laws are about obeying the laws. While there are some later edicts which deal with health, and it compassion for animals IS a separate obligation, the dietary laws are presented textually without justification.
    Kosher meat is also salted to draw out blood, and then rinsed again. The meat is not blessed by anyone. The ritual activity is the subject of the blessing.
    Gefilte fish is often made of Pike and Mullet as well. There are even some wonderful salmon gefilte fish.
    No, Jews are allowed to eat a very select group of grasshoppers. Most don't because most don't have the tradition of precisely which species are allowed. All other insects are not allowed to be eaten.
    There is no such ceremony. While there is a ceremony that some people fulfill by lifting a chicken up and moving it around, were it to suffer or become injured, it would be unfit for kosher consumption so there is no "head falling off." The chicken still has to be slaughtered precisely and in the accepted way.

    Intuiting a medical reason for circumcision is nice, but is not supported by Jewish understanding. And the joke about the meat hors d'oervres is a nice attempt, but most circumcisions happen first thing in the morning, and fish is served.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  19. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    37,463
    Ratings:
    +24,020
    Nonsense. If you had a family pet that had to be euthanized would you consider setting it on fire? Of course not, even though "you're still killing an animal."
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  20. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,397
    Ratings:
    +3,864
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes exactly. Just like most movements of the animal are involuntary when it's throat is slit.

    Do you know how deep the cut is? It's not just thin cut after which you let the animal run around for 15 minutes.



    btw how do you feel about meat from hunting?
     
Loading...