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Eternal Spirit

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    If the spirit is eternal, is time an illusion of ever changing forms? or formless?
     
  2. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    Time is a measure of change, forms constantly change, nothing can be eternal for everything only exists now.
     
  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    But the formless out of which form arises does not change and therefore not measured by time.
     
  4. Fool

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    the wave function, the formless, collapses into a form when observed, captured. like a snapshot of a film as it reels out, the planck length of time?
     
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am an advaitist Hindu and a strong atheist. Hinduism is a pagan religion.
    It is a very vexing question, sort of the final frontier. Physical energy is eternal. But energy is related to space and time and sure the form changes all the time. So, how did it begin - from 'absolute nothing'?
     
  6. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    I don't believe in formless. In my opinion, there was always form and always change.
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I don't equate Emptiness, with physics. That's still form.
     
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  8. Windwalker

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    Be that as it may, that form has always and ever will continue to manifest, Emptiness, or Formlessness, can be understood as the paper upon with all forms are given their realities. A drawing cannot exist, or be experienced unless it against the formless. It does not separate from the paper, when it becomes a drawing. The paper is very much part of its "unseen" existence. Music for instance, does not exist without silence. Music is drawn on silence, or the formless. Same thing at the basics of all existence itself. All form is only form because of Emptiness, or Silence, or the Formless.
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    please explain
     
  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Time is no illusion, we all age under its weight.

    Its quite a steep logical jump to the spirit eternal. Especially in a vast void expanse of space.

    Since all forms began from the formless then perhaps an unconditioned reality exists. Everything we experience seems to be contingent. Science has to conform to an ultimate beginning.
     
  11. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    That is fine I don't agree, the paper or pallet have form or else nothing could be put on them. Since we can put something on them we know they have form. We just modify the form with color, folds or cuts.

    Nothing is just that nothing for anything to come into nothing, you need space(a thing), energy (a thing) and mass (a thing). So 3 things just popped into existence at one time or in a proper order and then things stopped popping into existence because we had enough.

    I believe that everything has always existed and just constantly changes form. Space (is expanding and contracting) mass(changes form through encounters with energy, other mass and space) energy (changes form through encounters with mass, energy and space)
     
  12. Windwalker

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    What form does silence have that music hangs upon? Again, these are metaphors, not scientific descriptions. Emptiness, or formlessness, cannot be described scientifically. Metaphors are like analogies, it's "like paper".

    Being literal will not help the mind understand abstractions like this. You have to defocus a little to see the "big picture", so to speak.

    My point was not to analyze the paper and what it's made of. My point was without the blank canvas, form cannot exist. That drawing has to have something that is not there, in order for it to exist.

    And Emptiness is in all of those. All of those are only a "thing" because we see them against "non-thingness", or formlessness. Space, is not Emptiness. Space is a thing. Emptiness is "no-thing" or "nothingness". It is the absence of thing'ness. It is boundless and undefinable because of that.

    Even if forms are eternally changing, without beginning or end, they would have no definition were it not for the fact they exist against the backdrop of Ultimate Reality, or Emptiness. Emptiness is the canvas of all realities, no matter what form, or universe they exist within. All of it, all form, is like bobbers riding up and down upon that infinite Formless Sea.
     
  13. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    I don't agree, Everything exists today, yesterday and tomorrow and always has existed when the dinosaurs roamed the earth everything existed, when the earth first formed everything existed. Never has anything new popped into existence in billions of years, why would you believe it ever had. Forms have just changed dinosaurs became fossils and fossil fuels. Creatures evolved. Galaxies collapse and stars are born.

    Music does not hang on silence but the molecules in the air all around. Silence is just another name for nothing involving only human hearable sound. There never is true silence even today science can use machines and hear the sound of the big bang.
     
  14. Windwalker

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    And none of that denies or contracts any of what I have said. All that, however you wish to envision it, can only exist by reason of formlessness. A drawing can only exist by differentiated against its non-existence, or the "paper" upon which it is drawn. The paper is not the drawing, but the drawing without the paper is nothing. It doesn't exist.

    If form exists, so does formlessness. Form without formlessness, is nothing. No thing at all.

    So literal, you are. Who care if "true silence" is an actual thing here. These are Metaphors. Not science. Try visualizing a little here. A musical note is only a musical note (form) because it can be discerned erupting out of silence. If all there was was one solid blast of all notes with no silence, it is no longer music at all, but undifferentiated noise. There would be no notes at all. Same with forms. There has to be "space", or "non-notes" in order for notes to exist, or form to exist.

    You think way too literally, way too materially. This is an abstraction of understanding and a shift in how we normally perceive things. But it is absolutely true, nonetheless.
     
  15. bobhikes

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    I still disagree, Just so you understand I disagree with formlessness existing. Only form exists. You may not be able to sense the form but it is still there. If you want to limit life to only your sense's I understand.

    Musical notes can be discerned against any lesser noise and that is what your space is. It is just a period of an expected sound or note. Thankfully musicians do not have to play in quite arena's or many people including myself wouldn't have any fun singing along and not always in step with the music.

    In an orchestra or on the piano (had some training) Multiple notes are played at one time to produce a sound. In an orchestra instruments are played through the rests of other instruments so there are no breaks for a period of time, I am not sure but there probably is an instrumental without silence only notes against notes. Humans have to breath so breaks are more common in singing.
     
  16. Windwalker

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    It seems to me that is what you are doing. Form only is life according to your senses only. I understand.

    You are too literal. I think I've said this at least three times so far. Nothing has swayed me otherwise.

    I think the correct word here would be "chord". Multiple notes is a chord. I could play C4 on the piano, and that is a single note making a sound.

    I think you're just screwing with me at this point. I am a musician, and I'm done here.
     
  17. bobhikes

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    Your a musician then you should understand music can be played only against the form of air. If you played a piano underwater or in space you would get no music. Everything relies on a form to present it. Present something that does not require a form for presentation and I will concede. Paper presents ink. The pallet presents paint. The mind presents thought, The sun present light. ETC.
     
  18. Fool

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    there are no things unless there is contrast and still the contrast is created in changes of something vibrating at a different rate from something vibrating at some other rate. something that vibrates constantly is changing by forming but doesn't have to be formed.

    one is present tense, the other past. that which is NOW is never past, nor future tense, it is changing yet never changes itself. it is the UNCREATED CREATOR CREATING

    forming is a verb and is still unformed. it is only formed when it becomes past tense.

    so emptiness comes from emptying; which is a action first and a thing secondary. as long as it is emptying it is never truly empty; so it is empty of form but it isn't nothing, it is no thing, unformed, formless. only when it stops the action does it become something, you call empty.


    until god spoke let there be light, the visible light did not come to be until contrast between light and dark changed in action/vibration.



     
    #18 Fool, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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