Eternal Life? YUK!

[DavidFirth]

Hawkins

How are you so sure that heaven is like that?​

The promise is eternal life, is it not?

More than external existence, conscious being,

So it's got to be something like that.

And I'm right about not being allowed to vote the administration out, no?
.

No, it doesn't "got to be something like that." You have some rather weird assumptions about heaven.

 

[ronandcarol]

One hundred billion years into eternity, how many times will those that are not there, have asked for a cool glass of water?
ronandcarol

 

[idav]

I’ve just come across a poem I wrote years ago –

Heaven

One hundred
billion
years on
what will you say
to your true love ?​

Seriously, there’s a great deal wrong with heaven:

No disclosures of the real nature of heaven. It could be like Belsen for all you know.
No life map
No glands, no sex urges, no joy or terror, no emotions at all
Not even desires, not even likes and dislikes
No meaning, goals, problem solving, point to anything
Compulsory adoration of the administration
No voting out the administration to improve things
Nothing left to talk about
When the universe expires, nothing to look at

Just the promise of trillions of years then quadrillions then .... all of them the same.

I’m not a volunteer,

Are you? Why?

A couple things we "know" from the stories about heaven is it has war and rebellion.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

no joy

Where did you get "no joy" from? God keeps telling everyone throughout the Bible to rejoice when worshiping The Lord. The angels sing for God. Imagine the happiest moment you have ever experienced in your life and multiply that times infinity in both intensity and length. That's the joy from Paradise.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Where did you get "no joy" from? God keeps telling everyone throughout the Bible to rejoice when worshiping The Lord. The angels sing for God. Imagine the happiest moment you have ever experienced in your life and multiply that times infinity in both intensity and length. That's the joy from Paradise.

I'm imagining Trump's cabinet meeting with everybody going around the room fawning over a black hole of endless need, but a meeting that never ends and from which you cannot leave. There is no way I could be happy doing that without a lot of "How great thou art" drugs, or a 2x4 to the head. Oh wait - no head and no way to take drugs.

And what about the idea that you were created for that purpose - that a universe was built as an auditioning platform to see who would worship based on no better evidence than an unbelievable book full of errors comprising fantastical claims that can't be verified and promises that need not be kept? I trust that you don't make decisions about major purchases, investments, choosing a mate, or raising children based on so little.

Is that the purpose you see for your existence? It's not mine.

 

[blü 2]

No, it doesn't "got to be something like that." You have some rather weird assumptions about heaven.

I'd be grateful to hear what you can tell us about eternal life in the heavenly hereafter then.
.

 

[blü 2]

One hundred billion years into eternity, how many times will those that are not there, have asked for a cool glass of water?
ronandcarol

That the existence of eternal hell reflects abominably on the author of that idea is a topic for another thread.

 

[blü 2]

A couple things we "know" from the stories about heaven is it has war and rebellion.

Yes, that'd make for a break in the tedium.

But I thought that was all done and dusted a long time back. You think we can start another insurrection? This time a movement for a democratic government?

And by the way, what happened to the angels killed in that war? Did they go to heaven or just snuff?

 

[blü 2]

Where did you get "no joy" from? God keeps telling everyone throughout the Bible to rejoice when worshiping The Lord. The angels sing for God. Imagine the happiest moment you have ever experienced in your life and multiply that times infinity in both intensity and length. That's the joy from Paradise.

You don't know it's joy unless you've experienced not-joy ─ pain, sorrow, despair &c. Without such contrasts, joy is meaningless, no? Especially after an infinity of it.

 

[blü 2]

I'm imagining Trump's cabinet meeting with everybody going around the room fawning over a black hole of endless need, but a meeting that never ends and from which you cannot leave.

"fawning over a black hole of endless need" ─ wunderbar!

 

[DavidFirth]

I'd be grateful to hear what you can tell us about eternal life in the heavenly hereafter then.
.

Have you read the NT?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

returning to the One would mean identity wasn't eternal, no?

Nope. Our real identity is Brahman but Brahman is beyond all attributes. The closest I come to visualizing it is as a void.

 

[SomeRandom]

One man's heaven is another's hell.
In my tradition heaven and hell are temporary planes of existence. You go there for a while learn things and move on. Or chill for a while. Whatever I guess. There are even tales of certain people gaining Godhood status. Which could prove to be fun.
Or you could view earth as Hell and death as a sweet release. The real heaven, as it were. Whatever tickles your fancy.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God keeps telling everyone throughout the Bible to rejoice when worshiping The Lord.

This sounds familiar.

The angels sing for God.

Just like Trump's cabinet. How great thou art.

Imagine the happiest moment you have ever experienced in your life and multiply that times infinity in both intensity and length.

You're going to be winning so much in heaven that you'll be tired of winning.

That's the joy from Paradise.

Make Heaven Great Again.

Eventually, it becomes time to stop listening to grandiose promises that don't need to be kept and recognize when you're being played.

 

[blü 2]

Have you read the NT?

Indeed. It's very vague, but even then it has conflicting strands eg Paul says the unrepentant simply die (Romans 6:9, 6:21) or if you think Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians, are destroyed (2 Thess. 1:7). The author of John is also of the perish school (John 3:16) and the author of 1 John agrees with him (1 John 2:16-17). It's possible to argue, but it's not certain, that Mark 9:43 is only a figure of speech, in which case he too is a perisher.

On the other hand, the author of Matthew is a fiery furnace man (Matt. 13:41-42, 25:30, 25:41) and Patmos Jack brings his usual enthusiasm to the same idea (Rev. 21:8, building on Rev. 19:20). According to the author of Luke, Jesus took that line (Luke 16:23) though you could argue it was only allegory.

But as to the nature and quality of 'eternal life' very little is explicit except the lack of sex, which sounds very boring.

And my impression is very strong that an autocracy is being implied, in which the dead have duties but no rights. If that's wrong, what rights do they have?

And what other useful information can you add?
.

 

[DavidFirth]

Indeed. It's very vague, but even then it has conflicting strands eg Paul says the unrepentant simply die (Romans 6:9, 6:21) or if you think Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians, are destroyed (2 Thess. 1:7). The author of John is also of the perish school (John 3:16) and the author of 1 John agrees with him (1 John 2:16-17). It's possible to argue, but it's not certain, that Mark 9:43 is only a figure of speech, in which case he too is a perisher.

On the other hand, the author of Matthew is a fiery furnace man (Matt 13:41-42, 25:30, 25:41) and Patmos Jack brings his usual enthusiasm to the same idea (Rev 21:8, building on Rev 19:20). According to the author of Luke, Jesus took that line (Luke 16:23) though you could argue it was only allegory.

But as to the nature and quality of 'eternal life' very little is explicit except the lack of sex, which sounds very boring.

However, my impression that an autocracy is being described, in which the dead have duties but no rights, is very strong.

So what useful information can you add?

Did you take too much LSD when you were a teenager? You're purposely complicating a Biblical concept that is quite simple. Just take only the verses that mention heaven.

There are no contradictions in scripture and the whole flows in harmony from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[blü 2]

You're purposely complicating a Biblical concept that is quite simple. Just take only the verses that mention heaven.

I find it an idea filled with complexities and deafening silences. For example, you didn't tell me what rights the dead have, as distinct from obligations.

There are no contradictions in scripture and the whole flows in harmony from Genesis to Revelation.

Of course there are ─ a great many. One short and sweet example is:

Mark 6:8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff;​

Matthew 10: 9 Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff;
​

And a major one: in Mark Jesus doesn't become the son of Yahweh until baptized by John the Baptist ─

Mark 1:10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; 11 and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."
​

and this accords with Jewish tradition eg

2 Samuel 7:14 (of David): I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;​

Psalm 2:7: I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.​

Psalm 89 (again of David) 26 He shall cry to me, 'Thou art my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.
​

Whereas in Matthew he's the son of Yahweh from go, because in the manner of Greek tradition he gets his Y-chromosome from Yahweh, as delivered by the Holy Ghost ─

Matt 2:20: ... an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying 'Joseph son of David, do not fear to take Mary you wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;"​

with which Luke concurs ─

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, / and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, / the Son of God,
​

But thirdly, in Acts he's not the son of Yahweh till the resurrection ─

Acts 13:33: And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.'
​

And then there's the conflicting dates of Jesus' birth.

And I could go on, but there's three for starters.
.

 

[DavidFirth]

I find it an idea filled with complexities and deafening silences. For example, you didn't tell me what rights the dead have, as distinct from obligations.

Of course there are ─ a great many. One short and sweet example is:

Mark 6:8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff;​

Matthew 10: 9 Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff;
​

And a major one: in Mark Jesus doesn't become the son of Yahweh until baptized by John the Baptist ─

Mark 1:10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; 11 and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."
​

and this accords with Jewish tradition eg

2 Samuel 7:14 (of David): I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;​

Psalm 2:7: I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.​

Psalm 89 (again of David) 26 He shall cry to me, 'Thou art my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.
​

Whereas in Matthew he's the son of Yahweh from go, because in the manner of Greek tradition he gets his Y-chromosome from Yahweh, as delivered by the Holy Ghost ─

Matt 2:20: ... an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying 'Joseph son of David, do not fear to take Mary you wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;"​

with which Luke concurs ─

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, / and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, / the Son of God,
​

But thirdly, in Acts he's not the son of Yahweh till the resurrection ─

Acts 13:33: And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.'
​

And then there's the conflicting dates of Jesus' birth.

And I could go on, but there's three for starters.
.

Mark 6:8 says a staff, as in one
Matthew 10:9 says nor yet staves, as in more than one

There is no contradiction in your second aloof assumption, only in your mind. Neither Mark or Acts says Jesus was NOT the Son of God from birth nor does any other scripture.

Not a bad attempt, though, I hadn't heard either one of those before. I guess I hadn't heard of them since they were so easily refuted.

Also, the Bible gives no dates for Jesus' birth. Yeah, you can go on and on and I'll just show you how wrong you are.

Go for it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Mark 6:8 says a staff, as in one
Matthew 10:9 says nor yet staves, as in more than one

There is no contradiction in your second aloof assumption, only in your mind. Neither Mark or Acts says Jesus was NOT the Son of God from birth nor does any other scripture.

Not a bad attempt, though, I hadn't heard either one of those before. I guess I hadn't heard of them since they were so easily refuted.

Also, the Bible gives no dates for Jesus' birth. Yeah, you can go on and on and I'll just show you how wrong you are.

Go for it.

How about these two verses from the Qur'an? Do they contradict one another in your estimation? :

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth ....." - (9:29)

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; It is for Him to recompense (for good or evil) each people according to what they have earned" - (45:14)​

The first seems to be saying that a Muslim should actively oppose unbelievers, the second seems to be saying to forgive them and not judge them. That is for Allah.

 

[DavidFirth]

How about these two verses from the Qur'an? Do they contradict one another in your estimation? :

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth ....." - (9:29)

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; It is for Him to recompense (for good or evil) each people according to what they have earned" - (45:14)​

The first seems to be saying that a Muslim should actively oppose unbelievers, the second seems to be saying to forgive them and not judge them. That is for Allah.

To me the Quran is a book of lies and little value. I couldn't care less what it says.