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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Truth101, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Im only going to reply to this post because you have not spoken truht on anything and I want to clarify that I have never said the kingdom will be sin ridden. I also never said that works are usless. The kingdom is to be worked for, you are to lose your life to gain entrance, nowhere have I said that without works it IS possible to enter into it. I am extremely tired of you misquoting me and applying ridiculous comments to your posts in an attempt to discredit the gospel of the kingdom. You say it is "punishment for sins not mere correction", do you understand that your scholarship is just foolishness? If you have a child that is disobedient do you give him a spanking for the rest of his life because to punish him is not the same as correction? You are speaking foolishness. You are expressing this foolishness throughout your posts.
    Good luck trying to convince others with your method of tainted scholarship.

    God bless your walk that your eyes are opened and you come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Goodbye
     
  2. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said:…I have read all your posts and found nothing but your personal opinion and I believe some is scriptural. Dated 8-2-06

    Just like in the court of law. The first thing that needs to be established is the integrity and validity of the witness. Truth101, say's he’s a witness for the truth. However, even in his own writing he contradicts himself. He first say’s, “found nothing but your personal opinion” and then in the same sentence say’s “and I believe some is scriptural”
    So which is it some or nothing, if it is nothing, then it can’t be some, or if some then the word nothing can’t be used.

    Proverbs 19:1:
    Better is the poor that walks in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool.

    The reason I bring this up, is the way you do anything is the way you do everything. If he can’t form correct sentence coming out of his own brain, then how can he be trusted with sentences coming from the Mind of God. The answer is he can’t be trusted.



    truth101 said:…Im only going to reply to this post because you have not spoken truht on anything.
    Dated 8-4-06

    Again truth101 say’s, I haven’t spoken truth on anything. Let’s see if he’s ever agree with what I have ever written.


    truth101 said:…I have given this much thought as to the spiritual signifigance of our discussion. We are talking in circles to each other and getting nowhere so the best thing is to leave this and move on. My reason is, although I am in agreement with you on most of this, Dated 7/26/06.

    Look here he’s “in agreement with most”.

    James 1:8: speaks of a double minded man. A double minded man shouldn’t be trusted.
    A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    In this context a double minded man is one that lacks wisdom, look at verse 5:

    If any of you lack wisdom. Let him ask of God,

    Truth101 say’s one thing, and then contradicts himself in his next breath.
     
  3. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Another example in which truth101 credibility is in question is, he doesn’t obey the scripture that he say’s he believes in.

    Dated 7/13/06:

    truth101 said:…Now, If you continue to sidestep my original questions to you I will have no other choice other than to end our discussion and shake the dust from my boots.

    Because he can’t defend his beliefs he threatens to shake the dust from himself. Unless he can lead you, as one would lead an ox to slaughter, he would discontinue is discourse with you.

    Then in his post Dated 8-2-06:

    truth101 said:…I just cannot continue discussing this for that reason and a scriptural one as well. We are told that if we go to a city and they receive us not then turn around and shake the dust from our boots and go to the next and my next stop is trying to finish writing my book.

    Since I didn’t receive his false doctrine, he turned around and shakes the dust from off his boots.

    Then why the next day 8-3-06 he answers me again, not once but twice?
    Because either he doesn’t understand what he reads in scripture or he’s disobedient to what he reads or both. If you shake off the dust from your feet that’s it, you are finish with them. You don’t return back again and shake the dust off your feet again.
    Like I said, it’s either lack of understanding scripture or disobedience or both.

    The irony of this is that he just pronounced eternal damnation upon me in which he has no authority and for that matter doesn’t even believe in. Why? Because he doesn’t use the whole counsel of God, he doesn’t use what all of the bible declares concerning any subject. He only believes in half of the truth, the truth that God is Love, however he doesn’t believe that the bible equally points to God as Judge and that the wages of sin is eternal damnation.

    Because he can’t discern scripture, “depart out” therefore he can’t be obedient to the command. He disregards the scripture that he quotes and returns back to have conversation with me.

    Why would he blatantly rebel against God’s order to depart?


    Is he like the fool in the Proverbs, so that he can be easily seen as a fool by the things he says’s, so everyone see him as a fool.

    Proverbs 13:16:
    A fool lays open his foolishness.

    Because Proverbs 29:11:
    A fool utters all his mind.


    Or is it because he doesn’t see the horribleness of sin, and that it comes with a price of eternal damnation, which is the evil that is coming upon the wicked of the world.

    Even Jesus warned the people whom to fear in Matthew 10:28:
    Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Fear God: the death of the body is temporary in nature; it is the first death that most will experience. Fear God, because on the last day you’ll have been raised from physical (the first death) John 5:28:

    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves (experience the first death) shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

    The physical first death is pointing to the eternal second death that is to be feared. God is the one that is in control of life and death. To make that point, God tells us that he will raise the dead that have previously died, and then destroy both soul and body in hell.

    According to Revelation 20:14:
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Fear God, who alone has the power over eternal life and eternal death. Fear God, who can and will send the wicked (those whom Christ didn’t die for) into eternal retribution for their own sins.

    Proverbs 14:16;

    A wise man fears, and departs from evil (the evil that will come is eternal damnation):
    But the fool rages, (there no eternal damnation, All will be saved eventually) and is confident.


    Proverbs 18:2:
    A fool has no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

    With the false doctrine of no eternal damnation, man is set free to do whatever it wants, because in the end all will be saved.
     
  4. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101, said:…Your posts seem to have the same presupposition every time. You first attempt to slander my character and … You attack a persons character then you state your opinion of scripture with no proof whatsoever

    Now for the attack card in which truth101 plays: He cries that I attack as if he is blameless in his assaults. I really don’t care if he attacks or not, that’s not the issue. The issue is that he believes that he his righteous, with no wrong doing on his part. What’s ironic, is that he does what he accuse others of doing.
    Let’s see if he is without fault.

    truth101, said:…The only wobbly throne of reason is your attempt to pervert my words by inserting your own words into passages and making the passages sound as rediculous as you can in a strawman attempt to discredit what I really said.

    truth101, said:…Ok, I already told you in the last post that I will not play your game. You have blatently ignored any scriptural debate whatsoever and continue to ask silly questions in order to escape addressing my points which you know you have no answer for. Dated 7/13/06

    truth101, said:…You are after personal glory rather than search out the scriptures and give glory to God. Dated 7/13/06



    truth101, said:…Actually it is shopping cart theology to assume God is talking about "eternal life"
    Here he’s attacking blueman on the post Dated 7/14/06,


    truth101, said:…You have no intention of giving God glory for anything Dated 7/18/06

    truth101, said:…not know how you can apply such a blasphemous false doctrine to the grand declaration of God to restore, not destroy.



    truth101, said:…We cannot agree on this at all with your incorporation of this blasphemous teaching and you are desperate to hold on to it under any circumstances

    truth101, said:…PS: I have enjoyed disscussing these issues with you because we are actually discussing scripture and not attacking each other. Dated 7/26/06.

    So which is it are we attacking each other or am I the only one that’s attacking. Again double minded man, out of one side of his mouth I am the only one at fault, then out of the other side of his mouth we attack each other. So why did he even bring up the attack card? Because he doesn’t even know what he says. If he thought before he wrote, that sentence, it probably wouldn’t have been written, because if he was enlighten, he would have saw that the judgment in which he was accusing me, could or should have fallen on him also. Especially when he is the one that thinks it means something. He’s not even aware of this; he cast the first stone, because he thought he was without fault.


    Matthew 7:4:
    Why behold the mote that is in your brother’s eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?

    He is the one that made the comment: that I was attacking his character. As if he never did.
    I am attacking the false teaching that doesn't line up with the Bible.

    Jude 3:3:
    It was needful for me to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.
     
  5. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    I have opposed him, not him personally, I don’t know him personally. All I know about him is his teaching. I am attacking his doctrines. There’s only one truth and if it’s not true it’s a lie, plain and simple. I believe that I am teaching the truth and he believes he is teaching the truth. We both can’t be teaching the truth, one is right and the other is wrong or we are both wrong, if we are not teaching the truth. So each one of us, thinks the other is a false teacher, Let God be true and every man a liar. That’s why I will continue to go to the word of God for the truth.

    Just like Ezekiel, God told him to speak to the perverse nation of Israel that had corrupted themselves, because they had a disobedient spirit in them. Ezekiel 2:5:

    And he said to me, son of man, I send you to the children of Israel, to rebellious nation that has rebelled against me they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even to this very day, for the are impudent children and hard hearted. I do send you to them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.

    The Bible only, that is the word of God, He speaks out of the scriptures.

    And you shall speak my words to them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

    Some will not want to hear because they hate God and his word. Especially the doctrine, that God is the Judge and he will send some to eternal damnation.

    But you, son of man, hear what I say to you; Be not rebellious like that rebellious house: open your mouth, and eat that I give you.

    God warns those that say they are teachers of God, to declare the whole counsel of God, declare what God says, or you’ll be consider in rebellion like them.

    Whether they hear or not, whether they like it or not, whether you like it or not. You are to speak what God declares.

    And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent to me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

    The Bible is what we are to use to warn people from God’s wrath because of their sins.

    And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written in it lamentations, mourning, and woe.

    All over the Bible, it is written of this impeding destruction to mankind, which first begins at the house of God.
    Lamentations, mourning are done at funerals, that wailing is anticipating the woe or the second death (eternal damnation) that will shortly come upon mankind.
     
  6. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    This is what God command to be preached in the ears of a rebellious house. Take a look a Jonah 3:4:

    And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    Look again at the language, God is coming in forty days to destroy you. God will come to judge you and bring you into destruction like Sodom.

    It doesn’t say God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. There’s no messenger of God’s love in Jonah’s preaching.

    This wicked city was ripe for damnation.

    God’s word was revealed to their heart, that indeed they were wicked and deserved the wages of eternal damnation for their wickedness, which lead them to believe God. They heard the anger of God in Jonah’s preaching, so what was their reaction. Verse 5:

    So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth,

    They saw themselves sinner, not worthy to even eat before God, they striped themselves of their own apparel (their own righteousness) and put on clothes that identified them with the apparel of sinners, sackcloth, clothes that were used to show contrite of heart. What show them these things, but the wrath of God’s anger on the sinner. They were about to be destroyed, symbolizing the eternal punishment that will destroy both body and soul in hell.

    Verse 8:

    And cry mightily to God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

    Pleading for God’s mercy to save them, they see themselves as sinner deserving to be destroyed, or else why would they be repenting of their evil ways.
    There’s no argument that God loves sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared). No this was a serious problem. In forty days they would be destroyed. God Himself would come as Judge to overthrow their city. What a frightful message this is.
    Verse 9:
    Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not?


    As a servant found guilty for disobeying the Kings command, and judgment being rendered, the servant can only plead for mercy, it is up to the King to either spare his life or carry out the verdict of the guilty.

    God did show mercy and love on the city of Nineveh, because they heard the preaching of Jonah and believed God that they were sinner. God LOVED them so much that he sent Jonah to warn them from HIS wrath (eternal damnation) so that the terror of this truth would cause repentance and it did. If God didn’t love them there wouldn’t have been this warning of eternal destruction, thereby no repentance and no Mercy shown by God.

    For example, no warning was given to Sodom. Only Lot was warned of the destruction of the city and escaped. God judgment was silent to Sodom, indicating that God never loved them, so there was no need to warn them. What happen was they never repented and perished; and are now awaiting the eternal consequence for their wickedness, which is far greater than physical destruction.

    God warns those he loves, to hide themselves in Christ. Psalms 27:5:

    For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion:

    The time of trouble we need to concern ourselves is Judgment Day.
    The pavilion is Christ.

    In the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me;

    Christ is the tabernacle of God, and His people and hidden in Christ from God’s wrath of eternal damnation;

    He shall set me up on a rock.

    Christ is the Rock, in which His people are established,
     
  7. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101, said:… and I want to clarify that I have never said the kingdom will be sin ridden.


    I never said, that you said the kingdom is sin ridden.

    I said, that this present earth is sin cursed.


    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Again Christ will not reign on this sin corrupted earth. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world; flesh and blood mortals will not be in the kingdom of Christ’s reign, so that rules out a 1000-year symbolic reign on this sin cursed earth. Again your doctrine is carnal in nature, looking for physical and earthly application. Rather than looking for spiritual and eternal understanding of God’s word.


    He continues to make my point, he say things that were never said, then how can he be trusted with the sentences of God?

    My point: This present earth is in a sin cursed state that’s why God will destroy this earth and create a new earth where righteousness dwells. 2Peter 3:7:

    The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of the ungodly men.


    Looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.
    This is the last day, Judgment Day; God is coming with His wrath to destroy the wicked inhabitants of this world.

    This is the last event to take place, before God creates new heavens and a new earth. If Christ is to reign before this event, then he would be setting up his kingdom on a sin cursed earth that is kept in store for, reserved unto fire.

    No, Christ will rule in the new earth, which is eternal in nature, a heavenly kingdom where God and righteousness dwells.
     
  8. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101, said:… I also never said that works are usless. The kingdom is to be worked for, you are to lose your life to gain entrance, nowhere have I said that without works it IS possible to enter into it.

    Again, I never said you said that works are useless.

    The kingdom is not to be worked for. Ephesians 2:8:

    For by grace are you saved through faith; and that’s not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man boast.

    It’s not of works, it’s by God grace that we enter the kingdom.

    Romans 9:11:
    (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calls.
    Verse 13:
    As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    These twins were not yet born and God already decided that Jacob would be saved. And that decision was not base on any works that Jacob would do, but on God that would show mercy.









    truth101, said:… I am extremely tired of you misquoting me and applying ridiculous comments to your posts in an attempt to discredit the gospel of the kingdom.

    You just keep saying things that are never being said. It is the same way you interpret the Bible.





    truth101, said:… You say it is "punishment for sins not mere correction", do you understand that your scholarship is just foolishness?

    First of all, God only correct those he loves. Hebrews 12:6:

    For whom the Lord loves he corrects, and scourges every son whom he receives.

    truth101, said:… If you have a child that is disobedient do you give him a spanking for the rest of his life because to punish him is not the same as correction?

    Verse 7:
    If you endure correction, God deals with you, as with sons; for what son is he whom the father doesn’t correct?

    God correct only his sons, and His sons are only those that Christ died for.
    God in this life corrects His sons to bring them to Christ. If Christ didn’t die for you then God doesn’t correct you. You were never a son, and you are left alone not to be corrected, but to be eternally punished to pay for your own sins. Verse 8:

    But if you are without correction,…then are you illegitimate and not sons.


    truth101, said:… You are speaking foolishness. You are expressing this foolishness throughout your posts.
    Good luck trying to convince others with your method of tainted scholarship.


    Again, in the above judgment you made, you have judged yourself. Matthew 22:20

    You have err, not knowing the scriptures,

    You don’t understand the whole Gospel message, if you did you would have known the difference between being corrected as a son and being punished because of wickedness. You would have never asked the question whether an earthy father would spank a child the rest of his life. The passage in Hebrews 12:10: should have come to mind.

    Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh, which corrected us, and we gave them respect. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? For the truly for a few days correct us after their own pleasure: but God for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

    You would of saw the correct of the child wasn’t for the rest of his life, and that the son is corrected because God loves him, and if he isn’t corrected he was illegitimate.

    You would have discerned that punishment for sins and correction are two different terms design for different purposes and different people. The wicked (illegtimate) received punishment for sins (eternal damnation) and the righteous (Christ’s imputed righteousness) who become the sons that are corrected by God.
     
  9. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Bibleonly said
    Of all the contradictive foolishness you have spoken your statement above shows your inability to understand not only the scriptures but the character of God.

    You said "these twin were not even born and God decided that Jacob would be saved".

    First of all, you have just removed any hope of God being JUST. With your interpretaion of what is being said in all of scripture is that you believe as I that man is without freewill yet you still believe that God will choose before a person has ever committed a sin to punish him for all eternity with no mercy and you say that your god is just? I think not.

    Secondly, you clearly make God a respector of persons. You believe that God chooses to burn those who have never had a chance to even live let alone do anything wrong in a pit of unmerciful torment for ever and ever.

    You have commited blasphemy in the highest level. The strong man has set up his throne in the temple of God and sits in it as God showing himself to be God. Your pride has been lifted up far beyond any reach. As I have said before God is the only one who can break this down.

    Two of the most prominent characteristics of God, and you have ignorantly slandered them with no regard for truth whatsoever. You couldn't careless for truth. I have told you before you are out for one thing and that is slandering persons with your doubletalk scholarship. You believe by knocking others down it makes it easier to attack their doctrine. Above all you seek a trophy. You want the praise of man and that is your reward.

    I'm done with you as I do not want to be the one that provokes you to slander and blasheme the name of God any further than you already have.

    Pro 26:4 Answer not afool according to his foolishness, lest you become like him, even you.
     
  10. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

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    Hell As Christians define it turns their god into the cruelest of monsters. Hell was invented to scare people into believing whatever creed that particular Christian denonmination was pushing.
     
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  11. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    What you have come back again to shake off the dust?
    How many times will you disobey the same command you quote?






    truth101,said:…Of all the contradictive foolishness you have spoken your statement above shows your inability to understand not only the scriptures but the character of God.

    You said
    "these twin were not even born and God decided that Jacob would be saved".

    truth101,said:…First of all, you have just removed any hope of God being JUST. With your interpretaion of what is being said in all of scripture is that you believe as I that man is without freewill yet you still believe that God will choose before a person has ever committed a sin to punish him for all eternity with no mercy and you say that your god is just? I think not.



    Read the scripture again. Romans 9:11:

    For the children being not yet born,

    You understand that so far, don’t get lost. They are not born yet,

    Neither having done any good nor evil,

    Since they haven’t been born yet they couldn’t have done anything yet.
    No sin of their own is found from their work,

    They are in the womb of Rebecca, notice verse 10:

    And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one,

    Notice again they are in the womb, they both are sinners and both deserve to be eternally punished for their sin.

    But you cry:
    truth101,said:…You have commited blasphemy in the highest level. The strong man has set up his throne in the temple of God and sits in it as God showing himself to be God. Your pride has been lifted up far beyond any reach. As I have said before God is the only one who can break this down.

    What pride? Prideful, that I am a sinner deserving eternal punishment and guilty as charge.

    Your sniveling is due to the fact, that you can’t defend your doctrines. When the scriptures prove that you should change the way you understand certain passages. You run off and pout. You start throwing a tantrum, because your still a child in understanding and a man in malice.

    You condemn, yet you say’s you don’t believe in eternal punishment for one’s action. You don’t even believe your own teaching that God loves everyone. If that is your position, then follow it. According to your belief what does it matter if I committed blasphemy, eventually, according to your teachings I’ll be save. What’s the point of all of your anger and frustration, shaking the dust from off you, it’s pointless. It’s done because you’re hiding behind your cloke of maliciousness. Your trouble because your doctrines don’t hold up to the Bible only.






    Let the Bible guide our understanding.

    Romans 5:12:

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all, for that all have sinned:

    This is how God views Adam’s seed, as sinners. Both Esau and Jacob are from the linage of Adam therefore they are sinners.

    Psalms 58:4:
    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    God further elaborates on the condition of Adam’s seed.
    In God’s site the wicked are sinners from the womb. All of Adam’s seed, that includes Esau and Jacob, they are both wicked sinners while they are in the womb.

    They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The wickedness of the heart then is made known as soon as they are born.

    This is why God speaks in Romans 3:10:

    As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one:

    In the womb before they are born, all of Adam’s seed are wicked and deserve eternal punishment. After they be born they are just adding more sin to their account. They add rebellion to their sin and continue to heap up wrath upon themselves.
     
  12. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101,said:…Secondly, you clearly make God a respector of persons. You believe that God chooses to burn those who have never had a chance to even live let alone do anything wrong in a pit of unmerciful torment for ever and ever.


    God is not a respecter of persons: Adam’s seed are wicked sinner deserving of eternal damnation.
    What is the penalty for sin?
    Romans 6:23:

    For the wages of sin is death (eternal damnation).
    That is for every single individual, past, present and future, became every one came from Adam’s seed.


    In fact as soon as Adam disobeyed God’s commanded in the garden. God would have been perfectly JUST and RIGHTEOUS in condemning every single individual the sentence of the LAW. The breaking of the Law required retribution or payment for its transgression. The payment or wages is death (eternal damnation). Nothing less would be acceptable.


    In fact God would be UNJUST and a liar if the price of sin wasn’t fully satisfied.
    That could have been the end of the story and God’s dealings with man would be completely HONORABLE and JUST.


    In fact, in order to fulfill the Law, the debt MUST be paid. The sentence must be completed to fully discharge the debt.



    The problem is not with God judging the whole human race and then requiring them to completely carry out the Law’s sentence of eternal punishment for their transgression.
    The problem is with man who disobeyed God’s Law.

    Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.


    What was required was perfect obedience to the Almighty King of creation. Nothing less would be tolerated, in fact Death would be required if found in disobedience. Disobedience to a command of a king (let alone the King of kings) is known as treason, rebellion and insurrection to the Sovereign. Any obstinate behavior, any willful defiance of the King’s command cannot go unpunished in any kingdom.



    Adam, who once walked in innocence, is now full of guilt, shame and condemnation.

    Let’s place the fault on who is responsible.
    Man sinned, not God.


    Man is to be blame for his willful disobedience. Not God who is carrying out the Law’s demands for payment of such a crime.


    We are guilty, dirty, rotten, and wretched sinners deserving of eternal damnation. God is Holy, Just, Good and Righteous for his judicial decision of eternal punishment to be inflicted on the guilty.

    Remember this important truth, There is no unrighteousness with God.
    1John 5:17:
    All unrighteousness is sin:
    In God is found no sin.
    1Peter 2:22:
    (Christ) Who, did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    Man is the sinner.
    1John 1:8:
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    God upholds the Law.
    Matthew 3:15:
    And Jesus answering said to him, (John the Baptist) permit it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.

    Man is the violator of the Law.
    Romans 14:10:
    For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ….So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    God passes sentence on the perpetrator.
    Revelation 20:11:
    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:…and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books. According to their works.:…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    The death that God had in view when He warned Adam for the consequences of his disobedience is now being fulfilled here on Judgment Day. Their first death was only temporary and didn’t fulfill the sentence, but was only a picture or shadow of the death that would be required for disobedience to the Law of God.
    Let’s not make light of sin. Let’s not down play the awfulness of sin. Let’s not gloss over our terrible condition because of our rebellion to the command of God.

















    And the serpent said to the woman, you shall not surely die: For God does know that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Man lusted to be like God to know good and evil. Man obeyed Satan rather than God. Man believed the word of Satan rather than the Word of God.


    The fault is in man who has resisted God’s will.


    Now there is no respecter of persons with God, because the whole human race (every single individual, past, present and future) has to pay the debt of eternal damnation. The wages of death (the second death) will be paid. God will not violate His own Law.
     
  13. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101,said:... You believe by knocking others down it makes it easier to attack their doctrine. Above all you seek a trophy. You want the praise of man and that is your reward.


    truth101,said:…With that being said I would like to maybe focus on my post concerning the use of any words in scripture to define timelessness as I see that both your stand and my stand both revolve around this issue and one or the others doctrine will crumble upon further study of this subject. The proof or lack thereof for or against the use of the words I previously mentioned in a post will make or break one or the others understanding of scripture and most importantly one will recieve greater understanding of the scriptures. How does this sound to you?

    It sounds like you don’t even know what you write. Talk about seeking a trophy, “and one or the others doctrine will crumble”. Read your post again carefully and you’re the one the wanted to make it a competition. “The proof or lack thereof…will make or break one or the others understanding”. You set up in your heart this competition to win a trophy, you can’t escape it, its written in the Does God really love everybody thread, dated 7-10-06, You were hoping to see my doctrine crumble and bow down before you.

    The problem is your trying to make God’s word bow down to your understanding. It will never happen. Let God be true and every man a liar. You want a trophy. Run the race with God. 1Corinthians 9:24:

    Don’t you know that they which run in a race, all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain, and every man that strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    Philippians 3:14
    Press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    That’s the trophy you should be striving for.


    I don’t care if you try to prove me wrong, In fact I welcome it, it causes me to reexamine my position over again, and I thank you for that. However, I am subject to what God has written and I will call a spade a spade. If I see that it’s a false doctrine, then that’s what I will call it. Ezekiel 2:5;
    And you shall speak my words to them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear:

    This is my objective, to speak the truth, and let the word of God do the judging.
    God’s word is a sharp two-edged sword, it cuts unto life and it cuts unto death. I am just a messenger of the word and not the word. My task is to be faithful to all of the words of the Bible and not to pick and chose those that are pleasing to man ego.


    1Corinthians 10:3:

    For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
    (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalted itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

    That the competition you enter in to receive your trophy. Not with me but with God. God will cause all false doctrines to crumble. God will break down the imagination of man mind. Every high thing, that being the doctrines that exalt man above God. Speak the truth and the truth will set you free.

    You've set your competition not with me but with God







    truth101,said:…I'm done with you as I do not want to be the one that provokes you to slander and blasheme the name of God any further than you already have.


    Are you sure your done with me, or will you go back on your word again.
    Ecclesiastes 5: 4:

    When you make a promise to God, defer not to pay it; for he has no pleasure in fools: pay that which you have promised.
    Better is it that you should not promise, than that you should promise and not pay.
    Do not permit your mouth to cause your flesh to sin;
    Neither say before the messenger, that it was an error; why would you want God to be angry at your voice, and destroy the work of your hands?



    Pro 26:4:
    Answer not afool according to his foolishness, lest you become like him.
    Verse 5:
    Answer a fool according to his folly, or else he will be wise in his own conceit.
     
  14. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101,said:…Anyone who wishes to believe that God will endlessly torture billions of His creation, consider the following. Writing in red (blue) are quotes from Ray Smith.

    Yeah, Ray Smith he’s the final authority!

    Why don’t we use Bible quotes for our final authority?


    truth101,said:…The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:
    Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
    The "hell" of the 21st Century:
    The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."


    This is a good place to start. Let’s compare the dictionary with the dictionary!

    Why don’t we use the Bible, as it’s own dictionary comparing the Bible with the Bible?



    truth101,saidDoes anyone believe that these two definitions of "hell" have anything whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm of possibility that the Christian definition of hell today can be a translation for a word that is also to this day, translated three times as "pit," and thirty-one times as "grave.

    The facts base on the KJV:
    In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol is translated: 31 times as grave, 31 times translated as hell, 3 times translated as pit and 1 time translated as ask it either in.

    In the New Testament, the Greek word haides is translated 10 times as hell, 1 time translated as grave.

    In the New Testament, the Greek word tartaroo is translated 1 time as cast down to hell.

    In the New Testament, the Greek word geena is translated 12 times as hell.



    Let’s look at how the God use these words in the Bible and then we can know God’s definitions of sheol, haides, tartaroo and geena.

    It’s God usage of these words or any words that he uses that will give us our understanding of there meaning.





    truth101,said:…Okay then, here are ten bold key words which define "hell." If these are the proper words and phrases to describe and define "hell" in our English Bibles, then we should find these ten words scattered all through the verses of Scripture which speak of sheol/grave/hell.
    He cunningly puts sheol/grave/hell together, as if they are of the same language.
    Sheol is a Hebrew word and you won’t find it in our English Bible. How many times ZERO.
    Grave/hell/pit, are English words and you won’t find them in Hebrew writings. How many times ZERO.

    He tried to make us believe that grave/hell are like the word sheol (which is what God used to write the original scrolls), and that he was looking for there translation.

    Why does the definition have to be the translated word?

    Who made that rule up?

    What you need to look for, is if the word sheol can be defined as "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish” not if it is translated as such.


    truth101,said:…Let us now go through all 31 verses of Scripture in which the translated sheol into the English word hell, and count all of the times that we find the words: condemned souls, devils, eternal punishment, Satan, separation of God, evil, misery, discord or destruction, torment, anguish.

    Why would you be looking to see if the Hebrew word sheol is translated into these other words and phrases, when you just said that it had been translated into the word hell?

    Why would you waste your time?
    What you should be doing is going to the scripture to see how sheol is defined, not how it was translated, you said you already new that!
    Definition of the word sheol in the scriptures is what you should be looking for.

    truth101,said1. condemned souls is foundZERO times 2. devilsZERO times 3. eternal punishment (or punish alone)ZERO times 4. SatanZERO times 5. separation of GodZERO times 6. evilZERO times 7. miseryZERO times 8. discord or destructionZERO times 9. tormentZERO times10. anguishZERO times
    Common sense seems to be absent here

    The logic behind the above paragraph surely lacks common sense.

    Sheol wasn’t translated. "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

    Sheol was translated In the Old Testament, 31 times as grave, 31 times translated as hell, 3 times translated as pit and 1 time translated as ask it either in.

    Sheol connotes and or denotes all of the above, sheol doesn’t have to be translated into:
    "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish” in order for it to have that meaning, that why they call it a definition.

    The above definitions are a brief description or explanation of the signification of a what the word sheol is understood to express.
     
  15. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Let go to the scripture and see how God uses the word to see the meaning behind it and see if sheol can be defined as such.

    Deuteronomy 32:22:

    For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.


    Sheol is use in the context of God pouring out his wrath. God’s anger is kindled because Israel provoked God to jealousy. And God’s fury is upon them, verse 24:

    They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction.

    In this passage God is using it in the context of Judgment on Israel because they have worship other gods.

    Psalms 9:18:
    The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    Sheol here is a place that the wicked go.

    Psalms 116:3:
    The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

    Sheol is describe as having pain, were one experience trouble and sorrow.

    Proverbs 15:11:
    Hell and destruction are before the LORD:
    Sheol and destruction are link together.

    Proverbs 15:24:
    The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

    Christ is the way of life, who dwell above in heaven, Sheol is used in an opposite to heaven.

    Jonah 2:2;


    And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and you heard my voice.

    Matthew 12:40:
    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly: so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    God is comparing the physical affliction of Jonah with that of Christ eternal affliction.

    Jonah cried by reason of mine affliction.
    Jesus cried, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.
    God was forsaking Christ, Gods wrath was being pour out on Christ’s for the atonement of His people.


    The belly of sheol is shown to be were Christ suffered the eternal punishment for the sin of His people.

    We didn’t have to you a dictionary, we needed the use of the Bible to see how God uses the word sheol.

    The Bible is it’s own dictionary, it will describe to us how God what’s to use a particular word.

    2:Timothy 2:15
    Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Study the Bible only and let it guide you to truth.

    1Corinthians. 2:13:
    Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    The Bible only is the Word of God and we are to compare the Bible with the Bible.


    What is most important is how God defines the word he uses.
     
  16. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Truth101 said, …:Think about what is said that must be accomplished before one will see salvation and enter the kingdom……..Before any can be saved they must first die to themselves for Jesus sake……..Those who lose their life in this life to fullfill the will of God will find themselves in life in the Kingdom age………. Those that do not and save their own lives here will have to experience losing their lives through judgment UNTIL they learn righteousness.




    There are three exceedingly important actions taken by God Himself that are absolutely required before anyone can experience salvation in his life. These three actions are required for every person who becomes saved. There are no exceptions.

    1.Chosen of God:
    The first action performed by God on behalf of the individuals He plans to save was that before the creation of the world, God chose every person that He would save. We read in Ephesians 1:3-5:
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    God prepared to create this world and its billions of human inhabitants, He looked down the corridors of time and saw a miserable mass of humanity that was altogether in rebellion against Him. Even though God created mankind as perfect beings, in the image and likeness of God, the Bible is clear that no one is righteous before God and no one of himself will seek after God. God knew that mankind would rebel against Him. He also knew that no one would seek a right relationship with God.
    We read in Romans 3:10-12:
    As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understand, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Yet, in spite of the total disaster of mankind's rebellion against God, God made a decision to redeem some of the rebellious humans so that they would not have to pay the consequences of their rebellion. The consequences are horrendously awful because the sin of the human race is horrendously awful.
    And so, from before the foundation of the world, God chose those whom He wished to sanctify for Himself. His choice had nothing at all to do with any action or desire of mankind. God declares in Romans 9:15:

    . . . I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    Through the emphasis of this all-important first action of God, God provides an enormous hope to every unsaved person. God insists that He is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25). No nationality or class of people is likely to include more of God's elect than any other group. No class of sinners is farther outside the possibility of containing elect people than any other.
    The Bible records the salvation of the adulterous woman in John 8, and it records the salvation of the criminal who was crucified alongside Jesus in Luke 23.

    Therefore, regardless of how great our sins may be, if we have a deep desire for salvation on God's terms, there is a definite possibility that we could be among God's elect.

    The Chosen Ones Were Given to Christ
    Those whom God chose to be redeemed or saved were given to the Lord Jesus Christ, as we read in John 6:37:

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    However, if Jesus is to have these chosen ones as His eternal possession, something had to be done about their sins. The perfect law of God decreed that because mankind was created in the image of God, every individual must pay the penalty, demanded by God’s law, for his or her sin. Therefore, even though they were elected by God and given to Christ to become His eternal possession, Christ could not have them unless the payment for their sins was paid. God's law decrees that the penalty for sin is eternal damnation, so effectively, those who were chosen and given to Christ would never be able to come into Christ's possession because they would be forevermore in hell paying for their sins.
     
  17. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    2. The Sin Bearer:


    That brings us to the second dramatic action that God took on behalf of those who become saved.

    When God viewed the universe, which He created at the beginning of time, He saw that there was no one He could utilize to bear the wrath of God on behalf of the elect or chosen by God who were given to Christ as His eternal possession. This is taught in Isaiah 63:5
    An I looked and there was none to help; and I wondered that here was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me;

    and Ezekiel 22:30:
    And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land I should not destroy it: but I found none.

    However, God's perfect law decreed that the penalty of eternal damnation must be paid before any individual could be allowed to enter into God's holy heaven. Every aspect of God's perfect law had to be satisfied perfectly.
    Therefore, in an act of mercy and love that is unparalleled, Christ Himself became the sin bearer on behalf of those individuals who had been given to Him. We read in

    Isaiah 53:6:
    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    This is why Jesus had to take on a human nature. He was paying for man's sins, and therefore, Christ had to become the Son of man. He had to become a human being so that He would legally qualify to be a substitute or stand-in for the human beings He had come to save. He had to be the substitute who could bear the curse of God on behalf of those cursed individuals He had come to save. This is why He had to go to the cross. The fact that He was hanging on the cross declared and demonstrated to the world that He had become a curse. We read in Galatians 3:13:
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    This is why He was forsaken by God. To be forever forsaken by God is one description of the awfulness of hell. We see this truth in the cry of Jesus when He was hanging on the cross. We read in Matthew 27:46:
    . . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Only because Jesus was God and He never ceased to be infinite God could the hours of the cross experience be sufficient time to pay for each and every sin of each and every one chosen to be given to Christ. No sin of these elect persons could be left unpaid.

    So now, there are many individuals in this world who, from before creation, were chosen to salvation and who have been given to Christ as His eternal possession. Their sins have been totally and eternally covered because Jesus became their Savior by paying for their sins.

    But one more great act of God is required.
    These individuals, who were chosen to salvation, are sinful humans. They don't know anything about God's plans for them. Like the rest of the human race that will never become saved, they are essentially a body and a soul. Their body is that part of their personality that is buried at the time they die. Their soul is their spirit essence that is just as real a part of their personality as their body. We know that the soul is completely substantive because in the case of a saved person, at the moment of his physical death, his soul leaves his body and is taken into heaven where he lives and reigns with Christ. II Corinthians 5:8:
    We are condident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, ant bo be present with the Lord.

    Then at the end of the world, when Christ returns, He will resurrect his body.
    Corinthians 15:52:
    For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    However, the chosen individual, before salvation, lived in this world like any individual who is not chosen to salvation. We read of him in Ephesians 2:1-3:
    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power
    of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    In his body, he lusts after sin, and in his soul, he lusts after sin. Before he becomes saved, he is as spiritually dead as any individual who will end up in hell eternally paying for his sins.

    3. The Miracle of the New Birth:

    That brings us to the third giant act of God which He does on behalf of those whom Christ came to save.

    The third act performed by God on behalf of those who were given to Christ as His eternal possession is that God performs the miracle of giving the elect person a brand new resurrected soul. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about this in John 3:5:
    . . . Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Ahead of that He said in John 3:3:
    . . . Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    To be born of water and of the spirit means to be born of the Gospel (water), by the action of God the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5:
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

    God speaks of this action in Romans 10:17:
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    In God's divine arrangement, He established the environment in which He saves people. That environment is the Bible, which is the only Word of God. Therefore, it is impossible for anyone in the world to become saved unless they hear words from God, and the only Word is the Bible. That is why throughout the church age, God commanded the local congregations to send the Gospel into all the world. That is why in our day, we are to continue zealously to send the Gospel into the world but now, as individuals, we serve as Christ's ambassadors.
    God does the entire work of saving, and therefore, He can save an elect individual at any time during that person's life. The only requirement is that the individual be under the hearing of the Bible. At the moment of salvation, God gives that individual spiritual ears and a new eternal soul. Thus, a baby can be saved as readily as a mature adult. A person with the mind of a two-year-old can be saved as readily as a college professor.
    At the cross, Christ paid for all the sins of the elect person. So, what remains to be done is that at an appropriate time known only to God, God will cause this person to actually experience the wonderful fact of salvation.
     
  18. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Truth101 said, …:Think about what is said that must be accomplished before one will see salvation and enter the kingdom……..Before any can be saved they must first die to themselves for Jesus sake……..Those who lose their life in this life to fullfill the will of God will find themselves in life in the Kingdom age………. Those that do not and save their own lives here will have to experience losing their lives through judgment UNTIL they learn righteousness.


    Look who is doing the saving:
    1.they must first die to themselves
    2.Those who lose their life
    3.save their own lives here

    This sound like a salvation base on man's actions and not God's.
    It's another gospel base on man's efforts, actions and works.
     
  19. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said,…Think about what is said that must be accomplished before one will see salvation and enter the kingdom. And lets learn what the second death really is.

    Let’s look to the Word of God to learn what the second death really is.

    Four times God uses the phrase second death in the Bible.

    Revelation 2:11:
    He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Those that overcome will not experience the second death; they will not be hurt by it.

    Revelation 20:6:
    Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power;

    The second death has no power on those that have experience the first resurrection.

    Revelation 20:14:
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    The second death comes after those that have experience the first death (physical in nature) are resurrected from the grave. John 5:29:
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the all that are in the graves shall hear his voice….They that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

    Then they stand before God the Judge who cast them into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

    Revelation 21:8:
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    These are the people that God finished judging and sentencing to the death penalty, which is the second death, which is the in the lake of fire.










    truth101 said,…Before any can be saved they must first die to themselves for Jesus sake. Now think about the scripture you used to prove that the second death is a painful one. The first death is a physical death everything in creation will face. The second death which you quoted refers to the death of ones self.


    Nowhere in these four verses does the second death refer to the death of ones self!

    Look again, you won’t find the phrase second death refering to the death of ones self, unless you make it up yourself and quote scripture out of contexts.


    truth101 said,…Those who lose their life in this life to fullfill the will of God will find themselves in life in the Kingdom age. They are experiencing the second death here on earth before their physical death.


    How can you experience the second death before the first death?
    How can you experience the spiritual death before the physical death?


    1Corinthians 15:46:
    However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

    The first death comes first and the second death comes second.
    How profound is that!

    truth101 said,…Those who lose their life in this life to fullfill the will of God will find themselves in life in the Kingdom age. They are experiencing the second death here on earth before their physical death.

    truth101 say’s, they (all believers) will experience the second death before the first death.

    truth101 say’s, they (all believers) will experience the second death here on this earth, another lie.

    Let’s look at the four verses again to see again who will experience the second death.

    Revelation 2:11:
    He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

    It’s for those that don’t overcome; they shall be hurt by the second death.


    Revelation 20:6:
    Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power;

    It’s for those that have not experience the first resurrection (the salvation of the soul awaiting the resurrection of their bodies); the second death will have power over them.

    Revelation 20:14:
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    It’s for those that have been resurrected to damnation; they are cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:8:
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    It’s for those that are unbelievers; all those that have never experienced the salvation of God will have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

    The second death is not for believers, but unbelievers. Easily proven if you let the scriptures declare the truth.
     
  20. Hacker

    Hacker Well-Known Member

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    Then Dan, if it's only a concept of being separated from God, then how do you explain the following?

    1. Jesus described hell as a place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). 2. The rich man who found himself in torment was both eternally consigned there without any hope (Luke 16:26), and was suffering (16:23 “lifted up his eyes, being in torment”). 3. Jesus said that the fire described in hell is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), yet if hell is temporary or annihilation, then the fire is eventually quenched. Jesus further noted, “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44,46,48). Clearly, Jesus is warning us against anyone who would tell us that the suffering in hell is temporary, eventually ends, or is non-existent. 4. The wicked end up consigned with the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) and this condition is called “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46). In addition, the suffering of the devil and all his followers is pictured as conscious suffering that never ends, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). 5. The Holy Spirit speaking through Peter described wicked people as presently being under punishment (2 Peter 2:9).

    I'll have to admit, i haven't read this whole thread in it's entirety, but look how scary that sounds!!!! It's HORRIFIC!:eek: I mean, it sound like as if were to be taken literally!

    I think i''m gonna go pray now!:run: :shout
     
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