1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Truth101, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…It will be through the fire that these nonelect will be cleansed. They do not enter the kingdom because the Lord out of His own desire has not predestinated them for the kingdom.
    So you saying that these people will pay for their own sin, in effect they will save themselves. So according to your gospel there nothing to worry about, because in the end every last person that has ever lived will be save, either by Christ or by themselves. So you really don’t believe Acts 4:12:
    Neither is there salvation in any other;
    Yes, the non-elect will go through a cleansing or payment process for their sins. But the problem is that this purification, this justification, these cleansing processes is eternal wages for sin. They will continue forever and ever paying this great price, never to see salvation from sin. There is salvation only in Christ, He is the only one that can come under the Laws demand of eternal punishment and fully quench the wrath of eternal death, why because He is Eternal God and can pay the Eternal payment for sin which is Eternal Death.
    For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved.
     
  2. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…All the rest do not recieve this gift of the spirit but they do have salvation.
    John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, if you knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him, and he would have given you living water.
    This woman at the well would receive from Christ living water (eternal life) the gift of God, which is salvation.
    Acts 2:38

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    The gift of the Holy Spirit is synonymous with salvation. Remission of sins, means, sins have been removed. The wages or payment of sins has been satisfied. These are the ones found written in the book of life. They have experience salvation and will not experience the second death. Those who haven’t received the gift of the Spirit still are under the law of sin and death. They will experience eternal punishment to pay for their own sins and since they will continue forever and ever serving out this death sentence they will never experience salvation. They never receive the gift of righteousness from the law, and they never will be completely cleansed of sin, because the sentence is eternal death, we know that it not physical death that in view because John 5:28 and Revelation 20 told us that the first death was temporal or physical. And they will be resurrected from this death to experience the second death, which is eternal or spiritual last forever.
    Ephesians 2:8:
    For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
    Very clearly salvation is the gift of God.
    In short if you have received this gift you are saved and have salvation, the gift is link to one that has experienced salvation.
    2Corinthians 10:15

    Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift.
     
  3. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    (King James Bible, Matthew)
    25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    (King James Bible, Matthew)
    20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (King James Bible, Revelation)

    Ok, well here are some verses from Mathew (the one referred to earlier), and one from Revelation. Here we see clearly that Jesus will NOT save everyone, for we all have free will, to accept the free gift, or reject it, trying to be saved 'our' way, and rejecting God's provision. Clearly, the Bible teaches that not all, unfortunately, will be saved, and Jesus tells us this many times over, it does not make Him a failure, He did everything possible to save us, but we must believe in Him, that is the Gospel, that has always been the Gospel. You refer to works, which is another subject, but I will say the Bible says we are saved UNTO good works. Some Christians will be saved, many in fact, and not produce fruit, they will get to Heaven but not have the rewards of others, nor the position, like in the Millenial Kindgom. They will be saved, but not fit for work in the Kingdom, won't be able to save souls, be a witness, a light, for their light is under a bushel of sin, weakness, doubt, cares of the world, etc. Anyway, there is a Hell, Jesus had to die because of it, and everyone will not accept Him, this is very clear Bible teaching, to deny it shows profound misuse or misunderstanding of the Scripture and that's all there is to it.
     
  4. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    6,891
    Ratings:
    +379
    I think we can assume that the idea of "hell" was invented by the church to put fear into people to become believers. Hell as a place of eternal punishment is not even biblically well supported.
     
  5. ALifetimeToWaitFor....

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    563
    Ratings:
    +36
    I believe they adopted that view from other cultures and implemented it.

    I also believe that the scriptures on Jesus saying he is the only way to the father are made up and draw upon by later scriptures in an attempt to assit the growth of the religion, but you can't prove it either way.
     
  6. uu_sage

    uu_sage Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    737
    Ratings:
    +116
  7. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    175
    Ratings:
    +8
    Bibleonly, I am giving you a link to a site that will properly address the whole issue of eternal damnation. There are many other good articals on this site but the link I am giving you is concerning all we have talked about. For the next while I will be far to busy to reply to your posts and others as well so I will give you this.

    I have read all your posts and found nothing but your personal opinion and I believe some is scriptural but then this doctrine of eternal damnation jumps in and once again clouds your vision of the truth that is hidden in these passages. The problem is the carnal mind. You continue to cry "context, context, context, but as soon as something threatens your belief in eternal damnation, context begins to mean nothing to you and you begin wavering off in opinion and desperately erect a theological strawman to support it no matter how much of the scripture you need to mutilate to do it. You are missing out on a vast amount of understanding. It is my hope and prayer that you check on this link and open up your heart and ask God to give you the understanding. In my personal opinion I cannot see you even meditate on it to seek God for His guidance but then again I was at that same juncture in life and now I see. Your prayer to God for understanding is your only hope to have the scales of "strong delusion" removed from your eyes.

    I have a book that is almost 200 years old written by Thomas Alin called "Christ triumphent", if you find yourself opening up to the truth of "ALL SHALL BE VIVIFIED" you can private message me anytime and I will send it to you via email. I is a rather large book but it is the greatest book other than the bible that I have ever read. It is just impossible to get any serious discussion going on these forums. Theres not enough space for longer posts. I find when I finish a post I have to shorten it a great deal in order to post it as the site only allows 10000 letters and spaces.

    I just cannot continue discussing this for that reason and a scriptural one as well. We are told that if we go to a city and they recieve us not then turn around and shake the dust from our boots and go to the next and my next stop is trying to finish writing my book.

    I will check in every now and then and if you will check out this article please send an instant message to me telling me what you think.

    Anyone who would like to get an indepth study or you are just curious can check this site out. There are many more links on this site which lead to other sites of different authors with the same faith. These sites are nothing but scripture. Scripture is used for every claim. There are big studies and smaller ones and all contain the absolute truth of the scriptures. Not all will recieve this doctrine and neither can they accept the spirit draws them and gives them understanding.

    http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm This link takes you to a biblical debate between a scholar who believes in eternal torment and the author of the site L. Ray Smith. You will find it very informative.

    If you find this to help your growth in your pursuit of truth than you will find the link below very helpfull too.
    http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/deceive1.php

    It is my sincere prayer that all who read this post go to these sites and give then the attention they deserve. These are men of God who have the spirit of truth and give it as freely as they have recieved it. You will find L. Ray Smith to be a little on the abrasive side but the message is not hindered either way, besides, Christ Himself was very abrasive at times when confronted with the carnal mind "ye hypocrites, vipers, calling people satan and rebuking them, etc,etc. Christ was much more abrasive and could you blame him?

    This is all I can give at this time. If anyone wishes to spend some time on these sites and has any questions or comment for me I will be happy to take the time, just PM me. If you just plainly have no intentions of searching for truth and are only looking for disputations than I will not reply. I just do not have the time right now.

    Happy reading and God Bless your spiritual eyes and ears.

    Dave
     
  8. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm This link takes you to a biblical debate between a scholar who believes in eternal torment and the author of the site L. Ray Smith. You will find it very informative.

    I have read all your posts and found nothing but your personal opinion and I believe some is scriptural but then this doctrine of non-eternal damnation jumps in and once again clouds your vision of the truth that is hidden in these passages. The problem is the carnal mind. You continue to deny "context, context, context, but as soon as something threatens your belief in no eternal damnation, because context means nothing to you and you begin wavering off in opinion and desperately erect a theological strawman to support it no matter how much of the scripture you need to mutilate to do it. You are missing out on a vast amount of understanding. It is my hope and prayer that you check on this link and open up your heart and ask God to give you the understanding, so that you can see that no eternal death is the lie Satan declared, which said you shall not surely die. Your prayer to God for understanding is your only hope to have the scales of "strong delusion" removed from your eyes.


    The same comments you posted above that were directed at me, can and should be directed to your self.

    And according to your Gospel (Satan's lie that you shall not surely die) What doesn't it matter to you what anybody believes anyway, According to you all will be save either by Christ or by them self suffering for a little while. After that all is well.

    Two salvation plan you have invented. One Christ saves and the other men save them selfs, because you believe as Adam what Satan has said there is no judgment , But you will be as gods knowing good and evil , go ahead write you book , but the book that opens the eyes of the blind has already been written,

    Let them alone they be blind leaders of the blind. they will both fall into the ditch.
     
  9. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    175
    Ratings:
    +8
    It is obvious you are not in search for any truth because your unwavering opinion and trust in the doctrine of man will never be broken down. God alone is the only one who can remove this. So I do shake the dust from my boots.
    First of all it is according TO THE GOSPEL, not mine. Secondly, how can you say I believe Satans lie "you shall not surely die"? We all die and we will all be ressurected. Do you deny either yourself? I have shown you how plain as day it is written that this Kingdom of heaven you insist is eternal is not, it comes to an END. How therefore can you apply the mistranslation of AIONIOS as ETERNAL to this as well. Your whole ETERNAL death crumbles in light of this, just as your assumption that the kingdom is ETERNAL as well.

    The kingdom lasts for 1000 years and ends yet, our bibles have translated aionios as eternal or everlasting or ever and ever. The translation for aionios death is also translated eternal yet this death that is spoken of in scripture only lasts as long as the kingdom does and at the end of the kingdom the DEAD ARE RESSURECTED. So you can devise up any method of beating around this enigma or you can accept that our translarers made a big booboo whether purposefully or by accident but nonetheless it is not truth. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth and seeking after truth with allof your heart when you continually ignore these facts of scripture. Like everyone else who recieves not the things of the spirit you too suufer from a pride and that pride has exaulted itself in the temple of God and showing itself to be god in its attempt to keep you form recieving truth. Your heart is hardened and it is God who hardens that heart. It is only God who can change this.
    There is only one salvation. Christ gave His life as a ransom for ALL mankind. Salvation means healing. We are saved by the death burial and ressurection of Christ but the salvation means healing. We are healed from our infirmity (sin and wickedness) through our lives or through the fire. There are not multiple salvations as I have made perfectly clear. Dieing to self and taking up our cross is the salvation (healing). We either die to self now and inherit the kingdom (for 1000 years) or we will not inherit the kingdom and be healed through the fire which is God himself (not a literal fire burning the flesh of the wicked). The elect are tried by the trials and tribulations in this life and therefore recieve the reward of ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years. The rest live not agin UNTIL the end of this kingdom and then are ressurected to be tried in the fires (that shall try EVERY mans work OF WHAT SORT IT IS. God Himself will consume away all unrighteousness of those who never died to self in there lives."He shall suffer loss but he himself SHALL BE SAVED" (because of Christ).
    I never said we can save ourselves. You are in error. As well I never said anything that would cause you to claim I believe the lie of the serpent that "there is no judgment". I have never said any such thing, again you err.
    Did Satan lie when he said "for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
    He did not say you will be like God. He said ye shall be as God in the way of knowing of good and evil. In other words God knows good and evil so also if Eve ate of the tree she too would have the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. He did not lie at this point. He lied when he said that she shall surely not die.
    It is very obvious you have no need of anything. You have all the knowledge you need to get you through your life and God has already lead you into ALL understanding so our discussions will be pointless because how could you possible learn any more when you know all. The reason I state this is because as you have said previously you have read and looked into all I have said and will prove every single thing I said wrong. Well If you think I only took a couple of weeks to examine this to jump ahead and accept it you are mistaken. I know you have not reviewed the scriptural standing of this because I have not even begun to scratch the surface of it and you believe you know I'm wrong. You see the child of God who has a sincere thirst for the truth does not disregard everything that comes his way. They look and seek as for hidden treasure, why? Because it is hidden, you must seek with all intensity or you will never find it.
    The problem is you have recieved the milk of the word and you are satisfied. You have no need of nothing so your continued search has been hindered. You will never recieve anymore truth because you are satisfied enough with your carnal understanding.
    Heb 5:13 for everyone partaking ofmilkis without experience in theWordof Righteousness, for he is an infant.
    1Co 2:2 For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and Him having been crucified.
    This is all you can bare right now and my attempt to give you wisdom concerning these things is futile because of your dulling ears. Paul made it appear as though all he knew was Christ crucified in order to teach the milk of the word. He did not feed them strong meat here because they could not recieve it. When you turn to the book of Corinthians we find the meat of the word there concerning Gods plan for the elect and the non elect (allmankind).SEE NEXT POST.

     
  10. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    175
    Ratings:
    +8
    Bibleonly,
    1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
    1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
    1Co 15:24 Then is the end (what is in the end? The consumation of all mankind who have ever lived. This is where christianity says this is the absolute end with no hope for the lost. They are wrong. It is in this end that everything and everyone is put into subjection by God the father. It is the fall harvest of all.), when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease(make to cease or END) all rule and all authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For it is right for Him to reign until (untill, not for all eternity as you and all christians believe inspite of this scripture)He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
    1Co 15:26 the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
    1Co 15:27 For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it ("it" refering to creation)excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6
    1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

    Remember "as in Adam" ALL creation die but, "in Christ shall ALL be made alive. The same ALL as in Adams fall are the same ALL who Christ will make alive. Else, how can Christ undo all that the devil has done? He came to save that which was lost. What was lost through Adams fall? All was lost. Christ came to undo what was done by the fall so how do you incorperate your eternal hell nonsence into your theology in light of this? If most of mankind be lost to eternal damnation they are lost forever so how can Christ claim to save that which WAS lost when you believe they are too far lost to save for Christ?
    In these verses is a vast amount of knowledge concerning Gods plan for His whole creation and you refuse to believe it all based on not only your approval of the mistranslation of aionios but, your insistant pressing on it. How in the end can God be all in all if most remain lost? Your theology is just a bunch of doubletalk. Heres why.

    Christ is the savior of the world yet He does not save the whole world but only some. Again "Savior of the world" is His name and is worthy of being lifted up as the Savior of the world but not according to your theology.

    God will be all in all but that only means He will be all in all of those who lived for Him during their life. The problem with this view is that all of creation is in view on these passages (since you are an avid context fan).

    The Kingdom lasts for eternity and therefore so does the death of those who were never permitted to enter it. Again the kingdom comes to an end and will CEASE when all has been vivified and then God the Father will be ALL in ALL.

    When will you give up this doubletalk theology and listen to and believe the words in the bible instead of clinging to this eternal torment idolatry?

    God bless, Dave
     
  11. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Idolatry, hmm, making up your own religion, thats idolatry, you twist the BIble, friend, not us.
     
  12. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    175
    Ratings:
    +8
    If I have somehow twisted the bible, please clarify exactly what you feel is twisted. My own religion? How is this my own religion?

    Its funny you use the signature you do. "Jesus loves you no matter what, and theres nothing you can do about it" yet you yourself do not believe that which you speak. You couldnt care less whether what I have to say is true or not, you only care about what YOU believe is true. Are you in search for truth or do you already know all?

    It appears that your opinion of the doctrine I preach is based not on scriptural evidence but your love for the thought of billions burning in literal fire for ever instead of for a time because you yourself want the lost to suffer longer than is nessessary for correction. Your view of God is of a vintictive fiend who is never satisfied with enough torture. You say this is the God of love who IS LOVE ITSELF yet, His love is not only paused in order to torment but it must remain paused forever because the torment never ceases to end.

    The message I have is of love, not mine but the love of God for all of His creation. This love is unceasing, it is present in times of blessing and it is present in times of judgment. His judgment is done in love since God Himself IS LOVE and cannot be seperated from Himself. The Christian world as a whole has a twisted version of the scriptures which in turn shows in their doctrine and their inability to properly defend it.

    You say Christ loves us AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, but you have no understanding whatsoever of what love is. You as most of Christianity are quite content on billions suffering, not seperated from God but in the presence of the holy angels and Christ. So if your torment doctrine is eternal than they will be tormented while Christ and His angels watch for all eternity. Think about what you believe and especially what you are teaching.
    Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

    You are so insistant that I am wrong but you lack the wisdom of scripture to use it to prove me wrong. You cannot explain these issues so you make unsupported statements that I am wrong and I have made up my own religion and such. Before you tell someone they are wrong you should "Give diligence to present yourself approved to God, a workman unashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

    If I am wrong prove it, if you cannot prove it than do not insist I am wrong. The Pharasees accused Christ of being wrong always trying to trap Him but they erred in the scriptures and He called them on it everytime and they were left silent. If you think I am wrong try not to take the Pharasees approach and offer some solid proof and not your own personal opinion.

    God Bless, Dave
     
  13. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…It is obvious you are not in search for any truth because your unwavering opinion and trust in the doctrine of man will never be broken down. God alone is the only one who can remove this. So I do shake the dust from my boots.

    It obvious that I am not in search of the lies of Satan that say’s you shall not surely die (or come under the judgment of God). The wages of sin is death. And that death is the second death of Revelation 21:8:

    But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death,

    Eternal damnation is the payment for sin, God said in Genesis 2:2:17

    For in the day you eat of it; you shall surely die (Come under the penalty of eternal damnation to pay for this sin).

    God show us in Revelation there is a death that is greater to be fear that the first death (physical in nature) in fact, the first death, God show us is a temporary holding place, awaiting the Judgment of the last Day. John 5:30:

    Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The wicked that has never had Christ goes through the fires of eternal damnation to pay for the wages of their sins. These people are raised from the graves, they were previously dead (physical or first death) are being brought forth to God Judgment Throne to be judged for the sins that were never paid for by Christ. God calls it the resurrection of damnation or the second death in Revelation 20:11:

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Satan is cast into the lake of fire (which represents eternal damnation) notice day and night forever and ever.
    Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Satan will be saved. NOWHERE!
    His lot is the lake of fire, which is eternal torment, (for ever and ever) one must be a lover of Satan to fashion a doctrine that allows Satan to pay for his own sins, since according to your gospel the second death is only temporary.

    And I saw a great white throne,… And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened;…and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works. …And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    And I saw the dead: (first death, physical or temporary)

    Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves…shall come forth. (The first death)

    Small and great, stand before God…and the dead were judged. (Who had previously died)

    And death and hell (the first death or physical hold place) were cast into the lake of fire.
    The same fate of their father the devil. (Eternal damnation). If Satan judgment is eternal, then his followers, which receive the same fate is also eternal judgment.

    This is the second death.

    There is no other resurrection. There is not a third resurrection mention in the Bible.

    Thus saith Satan, you shall not surely die, and there is no eternal punishment for your sins. God doesn’t use the word everlasting or eternal. It’s the word age or ages. It’s a temporary correction. Don’t worry about it. God will violate his justice and holiness, God doesn’t mean what he say’s. God’s talking about physical death. That’s not going to be that bad, after a little while you’ll be back in his graces. Oh the lake of fire, don’t worry about that, it won’t last to long. In fact by sinning your going to be gods, you don’t have to obey God, you can be rule your self as god, there’s no consequences for your rebellion in the long term. You can become god, but you must rebel, Look at me, I rebelled and I am not going to be under eternal damnation, God doesn’t have a word in the Bible to express eternity, so therefore any judgment that God has in view can’t last that long.

    The doctrine of no eternal damnation is the lie from the beginning. Satan is a liar and the father of it. You shall not surely die. (You shall not receive eternal punishment if you disobey God)
     
  14. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…So I do shake the dust from my boots.

    Hebrews 5:12:

    You have the need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk,

    Let look at the where you found the above quote. Matthew 10:5-15:

    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment, than for that city.

    God in verse 5 commands the twelve disciples to preach the gospel and if they are in rebellion to the truth. Then shake off the dust of your feet. This is a phrase to indicate that this house of city would come under wrath of eternal judgment of God.

    Look at the scripture, just as God physically judged Sodom over 4000 years ago. Which judgment was pointing to the eternal judgment to come, notice the phrase in the Day of Judgment spoken of in Revelation 20. In which they would be cast in the lake of fire.
    In fact their judgment would be more severe than the city of Sodom. The people of the historical Sodom who came under the physical and historical fires of God wrath, will according to John 5:30: will be resurrected from the ashes and be standing before the throne of God on the day of judgment to be cast in the lake of fire. The first death they experience was a picture pointing to a far greater death, the second death (eternal damnation) for their wickedness.

    Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    It will be more tolerable, indicating they will be punished. God is clearly teaching that the historical destruction of Sodom was only a type or shadow of the awfulness of God’s Holy vengeance.

    God said in the day that you eat thereof (disobey) you shall surely die. It surely means more than a physical or temporary judgment. When you compare all of scripture, and not hide behind the lie of Satan, which said that you shall not surely die. (Pay the wages of sin, which is the second death.
    The phrase that you continue to misquote, truth101said:…So I do shake the dust from my boots.
    You have made this verse meaningless. So you shake the dust from your boots.
    Big deal. According to your gospel there’s really no lasting consequences for sin, it’s merely a slap on the wrist. According to your gospel nothing really serious will happen anyway, in the end all is saved. What an idle threat this is. According to your gospel Satan words are the truth and God’s word is the lie. Your gospel sounds a lot like Isaiah 5:20”
    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

    Woe, (is a fearful word out of the mouth of God) means that a man is heading for eternal damnation.

    Don’t eat of this forbidden fruit of Satan the liar. Genesis 3:5:

    Then your eyes shall be opened.
    truth101said:…your only hope to have the scales of "strong delusion" removed from your eyes.

    Another lie of Satan, I don’t what my eyes to be open to rebellion against God. I am not wiser than God. God said not eat of the lie that there is no eternal judgment. We will die if we disobey, and clearly according to the Gospel there are two deaths in view. One is temporary and the other eternal. You shall surely die.

    You say, “my only hope”: Hope for what, in the end according to doctrine of Satan I shall not surely die. (Come under the eternal damnation) According to your gospel I have hope whether I am in delusion or not. What do I need your prayer of hope for?
    Satan gave your doctrine, hope in that you shall not die the eternal death if you sin against the Holy one of Israel.

    The tree to be desired to make one wise.

    Why would I want to be wise in my own eyes.
    Why do I want to open my eyes to the instruction of Satan and then suffer the eternal punishment for my rebellion against God? It is better that I pluck out my right eye (not to have my eyes open to this doctrine of devils that say, you shall not surely die the second death if you are found in disobedient) than to have my whole body should be cast into hell. Then to have death and hell cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    No I’ll stay blind to the wiles of the devils and his false doctrine of no eternal consequence for our rebellion.

    Remove not the old landmark;
    Remove the restraint of eternal judgment; no consequences for sin and wickedness will multiply.
    Satan took away the possibility of judgment for disobedient and so Adam was free to rebel. Proverbs 18:30:

    The righteous shall never be removed; but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth:

    The earth here is the new heaven and the new earth where righteousness dwells. It is the eternal habitation of the just.

    Notice the wicked will not be there. Unless according to Satan’s doctrine they shall not surely die
     
  15. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…I have a book that is almost 200 years old written by Thomas Alin called "Christ triumphent",

    Ecclesiastes 12:12:

    And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
     
  16. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    175
    Ratings:
    +8
    You have not proven one thing in all this writing. You have assigned the word eternal where no such mention of any ammount of time are spoken I will give you an example.
    You have added to the word of God here as well as many other parts of your post. I can no longer discuss these things with you as YOU ARE DECEIVED and there is no getting through to you even with scriptural proof. You assign ETERNITY to everything written even when the context (which you claim to examine but really ignore) clearly (even a 10 year old can see) is speaking on temporal events. The bible absolutley never speaks on eternity and makes no mention of mans eternal destiny. The word of God deals only with the ages period. Not only do you accept the mistranslation of aoinios as eternity but you add this eternity to absolutely everything in scripture when there is nothing eternal regarding the events themselves. You have added and continue and will continue to add unto the word of God. With this in mind I will not discuss anything more with you because you are only after a trophy and therefore talking to you is completely pointless.
    Here you go again adding to the word of God. So now you have defined WOE as eternal damnation as well. Your horrid perception of truth is riddled with suffering and anguish, but whats worse than that is, you love it sooooo much that you apply it to everything you read.
    The new heaven and the new earth IS the kingdom of God where Christ and His elect will rule and reign for 1000 years not forever. It is the aoinios habitation of the just. What part of this is so hard for you to comprehend. It doesn't take and rocket scientist to see that this kingdom plainly is temporal yet you insist with no evidence at all that it is eternal. No the dead do not inherit this kingdom because they did not take part in the first ressurection. They are ressurected when THIS KINGDOM ENDS. How many times does one have to quote this proof before you lay down your pride and actually read what is being post to you?

    This is my reason for not discussing it with you anymore. You read my posts and only look to attack everything without concidering its validity at all. You have no intention of discussing it just to have a big trophy to say " I was right and you were wrong". It is because of this mentality that you are blind and cannot even see the simplest of truths like the fact that this kingdom is not eternal. It plainly states in scripture that this kingdom ceases to be and comes to and end but you do not believe it because you do not believe the word of God.

    Unbelievers will experience the indignation of God infact the elect themselves are to count themselves wrthy of experiencing the trials and tribulations here as they live but none of these judgments are forever. You say that this is only a slap on the wrist? You err from lack of knowledge. These people will suffer very much but I guess not enough for you since you break it down to a slap on the wrist. Remember you will be judged with the judgment you judge with I'm only glad that my Father in heaven is not as you say and if and when you experience your judgment it will not be as you have advocated.
    Isa 40:2 Speak lovingly to the heart of Jerusalem; yea, cry to her that her warfare is done, that her iniquity is pardoned; for she has taken from the hand of Jehovah doublefor all hersins.
    It appears God was satisfied with paying Jerusalem double for her sins but I guess this must be wrong to you because it is not enough for you. Because that is only a slap on the wrist. I guess the one you need to question on what is enough is God not me because it is His word that speaks on forgiveness not mine. Infact you are the only Christian I know of that believes the kingdom last forever because it is plain and clear in scripture that it ends and because the word aionios was translated in the passage as eternal it contradicts the word right there but you are so blinded you either cannot see it or you refuse to see it.
    The old testament is a shadow of things to come so with this scripture in mind you have to apply this to the fact that Gods judgment is done in love not to be vindictive but to correct, and when the correction has been accomplished He is pleased and will speak lovingly to those that are tried. You make it sound as though I have made the judgment of God of none effect yet it is you that has done this. If they burn forever what is accomplished? Nothing, absolutly nothing! So there you bring the word to none effect yourself.

    The wages of sin is death. When someone pays for something it is eventually paid in full at some point. The debt as we are told in scripture is just that, a debt. The doctrine of eternal damnation has done more damage to the children of God than any other religious doctrine in the world. It contradicts the whole of scripture, the whole gospel is tainted beyond recognition.
    Jerusalem paid their debt in full by paying double. It was a debt and God rendered unto her double for ALL her sins. So get off your high horse of pride and open your heart to the truth of the gospel and only then willl you see clearly to make any judgment on matters of truth.
    You have made it abuntantly clear you have not paid attention to a word I have said. Where in all of my posts in this forum have I even breathed a breath of a thrid ressurection? No where. You just dont listen and you pay no attention to the conversation. You just keep talking and talking but repeating the same nonsense over and over with your twisting of the scriptures.
    Here is some more of that babling nonsense I am talking about that proves you have not listened to one word I have said.
    You have not only twisted the scriptures but you have completely twisted everything I have said and paid no attention to anything. By sinning we will be gods? Come on! Your are getting worse and worse with this nonsense. We can become gods? Again, what are you talking about? This is nothing but hogwash and does nothing but reveal your lack of understanding not only of the scriptures, but of normal converstation between 2 people.

    I'm done discussing any further with you. You obviously are just not ready to grow at all.

    God bless, Dave


     
  17. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…First of all it is according TO THE GOSPEL, not mine.
    You have a gospel that is palatable to mankind, that have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, a faith; these ought you to have done, and not leave the other undone.




    truth101said:…Secondly, how can you say I believe Satans lie "you shall not surelydie"? We all die and we will all be ressurected. Do you deny either yourself?
    There are two deaths and two resurrections written about in the Bible. In which your gospel addresses only one death, the physical temporary and it leaves out the second death which this first death point, the eternal punishment for sin. It is punishment for sins, not mere correction as your gospel concludes.
     
  18. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    truth101said:…I have shown you how plain as day it is written that this Kingdom of heaven you insist is eternal is not, it comes to an END.

    Hebrews 12:28:

    Wherefore we receive a kingdom, which cannot be moved.

    Christ’s kingdom is a sure unmovable kingdom one that last forever.

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world; John 18:36:

    This world has an end. Since Christ’s kingdom is a heavenly kingdom where God dwell from everlasting to everlasting, then Christ’s kingdom has no end.

    Luke 23:42: And he said (the thief on the cross) unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou come into your kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. (Christ’s kingdom is paradise restore the second Adam obedience).

    Just as the Pharisees of old you too are looking with your carnal mind, for a kingdom that will be established on this sin cursed earth. Listen to the Lord of the eternal Kingdom and forsake the power of darkness. Luke 17:20:

    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, the kingdom of God comes not with observation; neither shall the say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    You will not see Christ kingdom of this sin cursed earth. Christ is not going to reign on this earth in the flesh, not even for a second, let alone a symbolic 1000 year period of time found only once in the book of Revelation. You won’t see Christ’s kingdom on this earth (it doesn’t come with observation). Don’t say it will be on earth for 1000 years. (Lo here! Or, lo there!) Sorry, Christ kingdom is not of this world and it doesn’t come with observation).

    Where is the kingdom then? Christ rules in the hearts of His people. (Behold the kingdom of God is within you).
     
  19. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    1Cor. 15:50:

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Again Christ will not reign on this sin corrupted earth. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world; flesh and blood mortals will not be in the kingdom of Christ’s reign, so that rules out a 1000-year symbolic reign on this sin cursed earth. Again your doctrine is carnal in nature, looking for physical and earthly application. Rather than looking for spiritual and eternal understanding of God’s word.

    When will Christ’s kingdom fully come? Verse 52

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This the last day Judgment Day, John 5:30:

    Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Those in the grave (dead) shall be raised incorruptible, (unto the resurrection of life).

    Verse 54:
    Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (The second death, eternal damnation is swallowed up). As according to Revelation 20:6:
    On such the second death hath no power, Because Christ pay only for their sins.
    For the believers there is victory of eternal punishment because Christ paid the price for His people.

    And like Revelation 20:14;
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1Cor.15: 55:
    O death, where is your sting?
    Eternal damnation for Christ’s people has no sting! Because in Revelation 20:
    Another book was opened, which is the book of Life:

    Christ was the lamb slain for the people written in that book, and the sting of eternal damnation or lake of fire has no victory.

    Verse 55:
    The sting of death is sin:
    Because of sin, the sting is eternal damnation, in which has no power over those written in the Book.

    All this is taking place at Judgment day the wicked are being cast into eternal punishment and Christ’s people are inheriting the kingdom, not with these sin cursed body, but with eternal glorified spiritual bodies to live and reign throughout eternity forever.

    Again, with multitude of witnesses. Romans 14:17:

    For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

    Christ’s kingdom is not on this sin cursed earth, it not with physical people that need food for 1000 years.

    It an eternal spiritual heavenly kingdom where righteousness dwells.
     
  20. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Messages:
    168
    Ratings:
    +3
    How therefore can you apply the mistranslation of AIONIOS as ETERNAL to this as well. Your whole ETERNAL death crumbles in light of this, just as your assumption that the kingdom is ETERNAL as well.

    The only thing that has crumbled is the Pharisaical doctrines of Satan that tries it hardest to make Christ the king of a sin cured world, in which he said, that his kingdom is not of this world.

    In fact, one of Satan’s entices come right from your book of doctrines found in
    Matthew 4:8:
    Again, the devil takes him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

    Christ will not fall and establish His kingdom in this sin corrupted world.

    Your earthly doctrines that continue to tempt Christ and make him adhere to your demands to bow down and set up his kingdom of this sin cursed earth, when God gave Christ a heavenly spiritual kingdom that will last forever and ever. And the kingdom that he possesses is because of his obedience to his father. Christ’s kingdom cannot be move. But your earthy sin cursed limited 1000 year age kingdom will crumble and only exist in a carnal mind, that is trying hard to see it with physical eyes. That kingdom will never exist, but only in a rebellious doctrine from the one that spawned it, Satan.
     
Loading...