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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Truth101, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Hi Genna, I have heard this used many times but there is much to be learned concerning this mentallity. First, by thinking that their is no terrors of the Lord based on the fact that they do not continue for an eternity does not limit the force of such wrath whatsoever, only its duration.
    Secondly this attitude exposes the heart of the individual who speaks it. Is someone who wished to be saved merely because they were afraid of eternal wrath exempt from judgment altogether merely because it is not an eternal sufferring? No, of course not. Once this false doctrine of eternal torment is exposed, the hearts of the true elect shine through based on the fall of so many. If a person talks the talk for so many years in their life and then they recieve this understanding and fall away show that they never ever had a heart for God in the first place. They were following purely out of fear and not love which is a caranl selfish motivation which is a foundation built on sand and not on rock.
    Thirdly, With this attitude you will certainly miss out on the blessings of knowledge and wisdom of things pertaining to the Kingdom and Gods redemptive plan. You may be saved in the end but it will be through wrath along with all them that know not God.
    Fourthly, You take a complete opposite appraoch than the reasons for your seeking God out in the first place. You are seeking purely out of fear and not a love for the truth. Then because Gods wrath does not continue forever you completely turn from Him altogether with no fear at all. A balanced appraoch to God is needed in order to recieve even so much as a carnal knowledge. You must appraoch with fear and trembling but also with love and patience and meekness and humility. A comment such as your above statement only reveals a lack of all of the above and expose the true heart of the person.
    Gods elect have pure heart seeking Gods face and not only His hand. Acknowledging our salvation through Christ is only the first little baby step in our spiritual walk with God. There is much, much, much more to His blessings and understanding than merely salvation. Salvation is a process and a work that continues in us by the spirit. I don't expect you to understand fully what I am saying right now but I wanted to reveal the heart behind such a comment as your above statement.
    My sudjestion to you is that you need to search this out further than you have before settling on living like hell and still go to heaven mentality, not that I believe this is what you will do. I understand you were merely making a point but this is a point I've heard from others who truly feel this way. Remember God judges the heart and if this was in your heart all along while your appraoch to God is purely out of fear alone would be in vain. This is why many will come to Him (Christ) in that day and He will say "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you", because they were not drawn by God out of love but purely out of fear by a false doctrine which does not come from God. Fear is only part of the reason to come to God, it cannot be our only reason.
    God Bless, Dave
     
  2. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Jerrell said:
    You are correct that Biblical truth is not a theory and it is a shame that most hold only theories of doctrine rather than the absolute truth.
    Lets see how you fit into the scheme of things.
    You say "It is a CHOICE, that we CHOOSE to serve God or CHOOSE to serve Satan".
    Now lets see what the word of God has to say. Furthermore we will even see how the relative passage "choose today whom you will serve" stacks up to the absolute declarations of God.
    Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Here are just a few absolutes of scripture which are not relative points of view as you carry as absolute truth.
    Do you feel that these words do not apply to you because God has given you some special ability to chose to do good and chose God over Satan without having been called or chosen according to election? That out of your own works God gives you power that no other in earth have been blessed with? You have also been given an understanding based on your own ferverent study of scripture which you chose with your own freewill outside of Gods calling to believe and have faith in? Your faith is of yourself and not given of God?

    I dont know if you consider your special abilty to chose God with out God first chosing you by election only of His good pleasure and not of yourself or any special ability you have to be theory or absolute biblical truth.

    These are only a few scriptures surrounding one issue you do not believe. How about these...
    when all things were created by Christ, who therefore, as S. PAUL implies, reconciles (re-creates) all things unto God -- Col. 1:16-20. Hence, His work is the restitution of all things -- Acts 3:21. He is Heir of all things -- Heb. 1:2. In him all nations are to be blessed -- Gal. 3:8. The Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life -- S. John 17:2 (see original). So all flesh shall see the salvation of God -- S. Luke 3:6. For God, Whose counsel is immutable -- Heb. 6:17,18, Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging -- S. Luke 6:27-35, will have all men to be saved -- 1 Tim. 2:4, and all to come to repentance -- 2 Pet. 3:9. He has shut all up unto unbelief, so that He may show mercy upon all -- Rom. 11:32. For (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever -- Rom. 11:36. He has, therefore, put all things in subjection under Christ's feet -- Eph. 1:22. So we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ -- Eph. 1:10. His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life -- Rom. 5:18. So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands -- S.Jno. 13:3, promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself -- S. John. 12:32. For having, as stated, received all things from the Father -- S.Jno. 3:35, all that was given comes to Him, and He loses none -- S. John. 6:37-39, but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He finds it -- S. Luke 15:4, and so makes all things new -- Rev. 21:5.
    Thus, He comes so that the world through Him may be saved -- S. John. 3:17. His grace brings salvation to all men -- Tit. 2:11. He takes away the sin of the world -- S. John. 1:29. He gives His flesh for its life -- S. John. 6:51.
    Because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (are irrevocable) -- Rom. 11:29, He gives life to the world -- S. John. 6:33. He is the Light of the world -- S. John. 8:12. He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world -- 1 John. 2:2. He is the Savior of all men -- 1 Tim. 4:10. He destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only -- 1 Jno. 3:8, and the devil himself -- Heb. 2:14. He abolishes death -- 2 Tim. 1:10. He is manifested to put away sin -- Heb. 9:26, and thus subdues all things unto Himself -- Phil 3:21 (the context clearly shows this subjugation to be conformity to Himself). He does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades -- 1 Pet. 3:19, of which He holds the keys -- Rev. 1:18. He is the same (Savior) for ever -- Heb. 13:8. Thus, even the dead are evangelized -- 1Pet. 4:6, and death and Hades destroyed -- Rev 20:14. All are therefore made alive in Him -- 1Cor. 15:22. Christ finishes, completes His work -- S. John. 17:4, restores all things -- Acts 3:21, and there is no more curse -- Rev. 22:2,3. Every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him -- Phil. 2:10. The creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption -- Rom. 8:21, and every creature joins in the song of praise -- Rev. 5:13. So comes the END, when He delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then ALL IN ALL -- 1Cor. 15:24-28.
    These passages are, I repeat, not taken at random and piled up any way. They are the expression of that Purpose that runs though the Bible. It is a Purpose first stated in man's creation in God's image; a Purpose to be traced in the Law, the Psalms and Prophets; and most clearly in the New Testament. From it we learn that (I.) Christ came, claiming as His own the entire human race, to the end that He might save and restore the WHOLE, and not any fraction of it, however large. (II.) He came with full power "over all flesh", having received power in heaven and on earth -- over all hearts, all evil, all wills. (III.) He lived and died, and rose again, victorious in the fullest sense, "having FINISHED His work," as He expressly claims.

    You appear to not agree with these absolute biblical truths either. I would have to conclude in stating that your denial and opposition to the things I have stated are not in opposition to be but rather with the word of God. I do not blame you or hold any ill toward you whatsoever as I know where you are coming from as I was once there myself. It was God who chose me and gave me all I have in the way of faith, love, understanding, wisdom, etc, etc, etc. I have earned and dserved nothing of this but have recieved these based on Gods good pleasure, merely that it pleased Him for whatever reason to bless my wretched self with such.

    God Bless, Dave


     
  3. Genna

    Genna Member

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  4. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said…1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. This command and teach. Is this what is being taught?

    This is another example of how one with preconceive ideas has twisted the scriptures to their fanciful beliefs.
    1Tim.4:10
    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Notice the insertion of (not exclusively)!

    This is the first clue of their shoddy methods for expounding Truth from the scriptures. 2Tim. 2:15
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Their worthless system of exacting truth is not of sound judgment, it is base on a skewed place of reference.

    This allusion is their fundamental support for interpreting scripture!

    To embed (not exclusively) into the text is contemptible behavior for a teacher of scriptures and surely discredits his workmanship in the scriptures.

    To implant (not exclusively) as part of the interpretation is ignoble character for a teacher of God’s Word and is to be rejected as a teacher sent by God.

    truth101 said…This is what you are not realizing. I placed that word in brackets to show that I was indeed inserting it.

    The insertion of the word is the problem, not that you simply insert a word.

    You never get the point of contention do you?

    The problem is not the inserting of words with brackets into the text to add clarification to a word, that’s not the problem.

    Listen closely, It’s the word, words or phrase that you concoct and then use to insert in the bracket, that is the Problem!

    The phrase (not exclusively) is the problem!

    The Greek word for specially is “malista” means chiefly, most of all, especially.

    Your scheme is in question; your lack of basic principles of rendering Truth is in question!

    First of all the phrase (not exclusively) is from your own cockeye point of reference!

    Secondly, because you don’t understand the verse you assume that the phrase “God, who is the Savior of all men,” applies to universal atonement!

    You rummage through the scriptures finding the verses that seemingly adhere to your deceptive opinions.

    “A workman that needeth not to be ashamed,” that is “rightly dividing the word of truth” wouldn’t succumb to such shoddy craftsmanship!

    A true laborer of the Word would bring all scripture that speak to the matter at hand.

    Even if the scriptures contradict the workman’s previous conclusions.
     
  5. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Continued….

    How do we understand the phrase “God, who is the Savior of all men,” in light of what all the scriptures say concerning universal atonement!
    Understanding the Nature of Salvation is the key to unlocking the Bible. If one does not grasp God's plan of redemption, how can anything else be rightly understood. If the foundation is not solid, any structure built on it cannot stand.

    Matt. 1:18
    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    In this verse God is saying the exact opposite of truth101’s interpolations of scriptures.

    Christ shall save his people!


    John 10:14-15
    14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Christ is the Good Shepherd and lays down His life for His sheep!

    Again in agreement with, Christ saving His people!

    But this verse again is teaching the exact opposite of truth 101’s bias commentary of scripture.

    John 10:25-29
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    Here Jesus is responding to the Pharisee’s (who, by the way went about interpreting scripture using the same methodology of truth101’s) notice:

    • The Pharisees don’t Believe
    • The Pharisees don’t Believe because they are not His sheep
    In perfect agreement with “JESUS: for he shall save his people”
    Which is contrary to truth101’s assertions of universal atonement!


    John 17:9

    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

    In order to come to any conclusion a True Workman that is “rightly dividing the word of truth” would have to deal (at a minimum) these few verse that speak precisely to an opposed position.

    This verse again clearly agrees with :

    That, Jesus “shall save his people”
    That Jesus said “I lay down my life for the sheep.”
    The Pharisees, “believe not, because ye are not of my sheep”
    Jesus prayed only “for them which thou hast given me”

    Not the slightest hint of universal atonement!
     
  6. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Hi Genna, I'm not sure if you have actually read what is being spoken in this artical but I would like to quote one of the first things stated in opposition to universal salvation. I will use blue for His writings and I will insert my comment using Dark red.
    "A refutation" by Arthur W Pink,
    In the present day (He states "in the present day" as though this is a new doctrine. Then he labels them as "SO FILLED WITH CONCIET" as to lead the reader to a premature judgment on the opposed writer. This is dishonest scholarship to label and judge before the arguement has been established. It is a method used too many times to prejudice the reader against the opposed before both voices are even heard birthing biased contention toward the opposed.) there are a number of men so filled with conceit that they hesitate not to dismiss with a wave of the hand the concentrated and consecrated studies of all who have gone before them. (Again, he states this with the intent on directing the reader to a premature biased view which thwarts the reader to view prematurely his position as the correct one before He even states what that is. He causes the reader to assume and accept that all the studies of the writers before these "number of men", were consentrated and consecrated as opposed to the writer in question. Agin this is bad scholarship to establish a presupposition of this character. It is designed to make up the mind of the reader before the views of either side have even been introduced causing the reader to approach this refutation with a biased mind already made up for the opposing refutation.) Not content with branding as damnable heresy the doctrines proclaimed by such men as Luther, Whitefield, Edwards, Spurgeon, etc., they declare that the 1611 translation of the Scriptures -- which God has so markedly and marvelously honored - is full of serious mistakes. (this writer falsley claims that the errors of the 1611 translation are not so by his implication that "these number of men" are the only men charging this version with errors and inconsistancies. This is not true. The 1611 KGV has undergone many many revisions consisting of tens of thousands of mistakes in translation which have not all been addressed even until this day. Where in all of Gods dealings with man have we heard from Him concerning the 1611KJV where He (God) states He "markedly and marvelously honors" it? These claims of mistakes are not only from these men who believe in universal salvation. These mistakes are well known throughout the history of the 1611 KJV. The fact that there have been so many revisions which have corrected many (but not all) these mistakes shows this writers misunderstanding concerning the history of The KJV altogether, not to mention that the rest of his refutation is based on his belief that there are no mistakes to keep in mind while rightly dividing the word of truth.) We are told that its translators were so bound by the traditions of men, so prejudiced in their views, so tied down by theological systems, that, wittingly or unwittingly, their labors have resulted in traducing the character of God and caricaturing His truth. (This is true based on those mistranslation, whether wittingly or unwittingly.).

    I will not comment on the rest due to the size of this artical but I will have you to understand that truth is not for all men at this time. It has been given to the elect of God alone and the fact that there are errors and grave inconsistancies contained in all translations is further proof that God is still in the business of keeping secret those things that have been kept secret since the foundation of the earth from those who are not chosen to recieve its wisdom. Many are called to hear and not percieve and many are called to see and not understand. This declaration of Christ is above this writers claim that God has preserved His word for all to understand and would not allow His character to be defamed. This is a truth that God is not dealing with all mankind in this life. He is dealing with those who were preordained before the foundation of the world. It is through Christ and His elect (once they have been made whole by the work of sancification through Christ) that all men will be finaly saved.
    For the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty (freedom) of the sons of God. The creature (creation) will join in and partake in the same liberty which the sons of God (the elect of God) will wholly recieve in the first ressurection but every man in his own order.
    This is the greater hope which the elect have been privledged to recieve.

    I will continue to read this artical as I have alread read a good chunk of it but find it to be full of mere opinion rather than based on scripture. I have read many writings from Adolph E knock and find his writings to be right in line to the best of my knowledge.

    God bless, Dave
     
  7. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Bibleonly said:


    It is your shoddy methods and preconcieved ideas of what you believe scriptures to say that is more than questionable.
    My insertion of (not exclusively) is 100% completely warranted according to the laws of grammar and the intent of this passage in contrast to all of scripture. If Jesus is the savior of all men but especially of those that believe than this is implying that He is not exclusively the savior of those that believe. He is especially the savior of those that believe because they are walking in that belief and have already in this life recieved of the things of the kingdom in faith and wisdom and understnading whereas those who do not know God have not recieved this wisdom and knowledge and are not walking in it as yet.
    You continue to twist everything in scripture and just erroniously attack without justification. You believe your above statement is justified but the laws of Grammar and intent of this passage not to mention the spirit in which these things are understood disagree with you altogether. It is your method of appraoch to Gods word that need an overhaul and this can only be done by God. You will never see the truth until God has called and chosen you to recieve the truth. It is obvious your doctrine is not only a malicious one toward the character of God but also to the lost who look to those who appear to hold the truth for answers. You come along with your malicious, contentious, hateful, accusations toward your fellow man. Do you believe that this is the spirit in which God commands we approach not only the world but also our enemies?

    How much more of scripture will you continue to ignore for the sake of syaing "I am right and you are wrong" unjustly?

    Read the vast amount of scripture in my previous post which state the salvation of ALL things period. ALL that was lost in the fall will be restored in the end through Christ. Not one thing will be left undone. Christ came as the savior of the world and this name is justly given to Him because He has saved the world. The end result is not visible with our human sight or limited view into the future but it is spoken in scripture and it is believed by faith. Faith is not Faith if we see but faith is faith when we are told but cannot see. We are to trust God that Christ will accomplish that which He was sent to do and nothing less. This word (Christ) will not return to Him void but WILL accomplish ALL that He was sent to do.
    You just do not believe God. You trust in yourself and those who have indoctrinated you with your understanding. This is one of the greatest declarations of God and you simply imply it is just a desire or a weak wish for God to have all saved. You say that God either cannot or will not save all even though it is His WILL to have all saved not merely a desire or weak wish.
    And through all this you accuse me of twisting scripture and mishandling the word of God. I believe the scriptures and you do not. It is just that simple. WHen the bible speaks of "ALL" I take it to mean just that. Whe the scriptures speak of Gods will I believe it to be His sovereign will and not just His desire or weak wish. When we are told that Christ gave himself for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, I take it to mean the whole world and nothing less.
    This is scripture and you do not believe.

    God bless, Dave

     
  8. Genna

    Genna Member

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    This link is copyrighted so I couldn't copy and paste it, but it shows how to assume that eternal/everlasting (aionios) is for a duration of time is inconsistent with the scriptures.

    aionios :), :), :),
     
  9. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said…Now look at these verses below and judge for yourself. Is there something wrong concerning not only the eternal loss of any souls but the eternal torment of all these as well.
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    Where does it speak of universal atonement?

    Surely your not suggesting that the phrase “whole creation” is speaking of all mankind?

    You left out two important verses to help understand who or what is referred by the phrase “whole creation”

    When mankind sinned they effectively surrendered the rule of this earth to Satan, God cursed the earth, which He had created earlier as a perfect earth.

    Therefore, the whole creation, which consists of the entire universe, has been subject to decay and corruption ever since the fall of man.

    That is why man and animals die, why there are thorns and thistles, poisonous bacteria, volcanoes and earthquakes, etc.

    This curse will be removed when the end of time comes, and God destroys this entire universe so that it can be re-created a perfect universe wherein the results of God's curse will have been completely removed.

    This is why we read in Romans 8:19-21:
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.




    The Bible speaks of the end of this existing corrupted earth by the language of
    II Peter 3:10-12:
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    The final destruction of the present universe will be followed by the creation of New Heavens and a New Earth as we read in II Peter 3:13:
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    We thus must understand that the unfolding of the timeline of history is particularly focused on God's salvation plan for mankind.

    However, this salvation plan is altogether identified with the whole universe in which mankind lives.

    This present earth is under the curse of God because of man's sin!
     
  10. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Continued…

    We must go back to the very beginning of time, when God created this world. At the beginning of time, God created a perfect earth. God gave the earth to mankind. We read in Psalm 115:16:
    16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


    Man's task was to rule over this world. In Genesis 1:26, we read:
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


    Mankind and the entire universe were perfect at the time of creation. God indicates in Genesis 1:31:
    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


    But then disaster struck, the angel called Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    In his pride, he wanted to be like God.

    In this way, he and all who acknowledged him as their king would become the rulers and owners of this beautiful world that God had created.

    Beginning with our first parents, Adam and Eve, the whole human race came under bondage to Lucifer (who is also called Satan).

    Consequently, God cursed mankind, who had been created by God to rule over this earth, because of their rebellion against God.

    God, therefore, also cursed this beautiful world so that it no longer was a perfect creation.

    We read in Romans 8:20-22:
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


    All of the foregoing events set the stage for the unfolding of God's salvation plan.
     
  11. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Continued…


    This plan called for several very important events to take place. We can briefly outline them as follows.

    1.Satan, who became prince of this world, had to be destroyed. John 12:31
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    John 14:30
    30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

    John 16:11
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    2.The wicked people, which included every human being, had to be legally judged and sent to Hell as punishment for their sin and rebellion.

    3.Some of the people of the world had been chosen by God to live eternally as God's servants. They had to have their sins paid for so that God's perfect justice would be perfectly served without these individuals being required to be personally sent into eternal damnation.

    4.The world, which had been claimed by Satan and the wicked people of the world, had to be taken from them and given to those who had been chosen by God to be His righteous servants forever.

    5.Thus, the wicked owners of the world had to be destroyed.


    Psalm 37:9, declares:
    9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.


    Psalm 104:35 declares:
    35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    6.Once the wicked are destroyed, the world is to be given to the people who had become the righteous servants of God.
    Psalm 37:9, 11, 29, and 34 informs us:
    9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
    29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
    34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it

    7.The earth will not begin as an eternal inheritance to God's people in its present sin-cursed condition. Instead it will become a New Earth, that is, it will become so eternally perfect that it will actually become an integral part of Heaven itself.

    We read in II Peter 3:13:
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Romans 8:19
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    The universe is also waiting, so that it can be re-created a perfect universe wherein the results of God's curse will have been completely removed!
     
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  12. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    bibleonly said:
    Because the CREATURE ITSELF ALSO shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. You say this is speaking of the physical universe? You err. You can apply this to the statement "whole creation" but you cannot say that "the creature" is refering to the physical universe. "Creature" always refers to flesh whether animal or human. It is never refering to the physical universe. Nice try though.

    Surely I am not. I am stating as a fact that "the creature" is speaking of all mankind.

    I didnt leave anything out. It is your false assumption I am leaving that out. Our discussion was not of the deliverance of the physical universe, our discussion was concerning the salvation of all mankind so this was my focal point in quoting these scriptures. I know exactly what the "whole creation" is refering to but it was not the topic of our discussion.



    This whole passage is clearly irrefutably speaking of all mankind. It is not speaking of the physical universe (whole creation). Romans 8:23 is where the "whole creation" is also brought into focus, yet the passage you quote above is all speaking of all mankind (the creature)

    Yes and this is concerning the "whole creation" not "the creature itself".

    Yes His plan of salvation for all mankind and not merely a fraction of it.


    Yes but they are discussed seperately in detail. The "whole creation" is refering to both the physical universe and all mankind yet "the creature itself" is refering to exactly that..."the creature ITSELF" apart from the Physical universe.


    Of course. None of this rules out that "the creature itself" is only refering to all mankind with no reference to the physical universe.
    God Bless,Dave
     
  13. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said…Because the CREATURE ITSELF ALSO shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. You say this is speaking of the physical universe? You err. You can apply this to the statement "whole creation" but you cannot say that "the creature" is refering to the physical universe. "Creature" always refers to flesh whether animal or human. It is never refering to the physical universe. Nice try though.
    !

    Again you workmanship in the scripture is less than to be desired!

    The Greek word for creature “ktisis” can be translated building, creation, creature, ordinance

    Here is only one example to negate your always theory!
    Romans 1:20
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation “ktisis” of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    truth101 said…"Creature" always refers to flesh whether animal or human. It is never refering to the physical universe

    It so easy to point out your mishandling of the Word, since you premise is always the same.

    You fail to do your research in the Bible before spouting off. You methodology is to speak before your know what your talking about.

    I didn’t have to try very hard to prove your sluggardly approach to scripture.

    Very clearly you presupposition again has no Biblical validation, your ideas are built with wood, hay and stubble!

    2Tim. 3:7
    7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    This verse is becoming your epithet!
     
  14. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Bibleonly said:
    I assure you it is your lack of ability to comprehend the message of salvation because you deny it whole heartedy where I accept it. It is knitted neatly together from creation to the consumation of all when God will be ALL IN ALL yet you do not believe it. Then you provide the reader with a presupposition which is all to often used by the decietful to cause the reader to adopt your biased opinions before you even attempt to offer a refutation. We shall see.


    Well now, I guess we can all go home because bibleonly has provided us with all the resourses available to conclude that Jesus could not possible be the savior of all since this verse and similar like it state that He will save His people. I will clearly refute this and all His following statements in the same manner of scholarship he has used here to apparently refute the declaration of God, not me.


    My biased commentary? I think not. But we shall get to your erronious assertion that I lack understanding.

    You have repeated using shopping cart theology that yes He shall save His sheep and His sheep hear His voice. Ok, we shall see the truth of this.



    Yes a workman that RIGHTLY divides the truth, not a slothfull, decieptful workman that divides up scripture and throws half of it away because it does not conform to his theology and traditions of men.

    Of course they agree they are all speaking of the same thing but your are ignoring half of scripture.


    Of course not, these carefully selected passages which you have quoted only deal with Christ and His sheep. These do not make up "the creature" spoken of in Romans 8:19-21. Infact the creature (all mankind) is contrasted with the elect sheep of Christ. It clearly states that "the creature itself" shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of THE SONS OF GOD. A clear contrast.
    Lets see another contrast. The term "whole creation" as we have established is incuding both the physical universe and the creature (all mankind). Then Paul states "and not only they, but ouselves also" which shows another contrast between the rest of the world and the sheep which even now hear His voice who have the FIRSTfruits of the spirit.
    If we continue to use your method of shopping cart theology we can get a clear view of where this will get us.
    "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". "The God of Abraham". Now I too can perform shopping cart theology as you have and pick up every scripture which speaks these words and claim, using your method of rightly dividing the word of truth, to claim that God is ONLY the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob but the word "ONLY' is not used in these instances just as the passages you quoted stating Jesus came to save His sheep does not contain the word "ONLY" in them either.
    We can use your method to study the word but it will just lead us further from the truth as you yourself are heading. I am absolutely in shock at your insistant misuse of Gods word and then charge me of doing the same.
    You simply do not believe the word of God. You believe what you want to believe not what it has revealed to us. I have given a clear view of these verses and there direct statement and declaration of all mankind being eventually saved "and not only they, but also we who have the firstfruits of the spirit.

    God bless, Dave
     
  15. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    bibleonly said:
    Yes out of the 4 definitions availbale for this word the context clearly demands that "creation" be the choice of definitions but you cannot apply this definition to Romans 8:19 as you erroniously attempt to mislead and misrepresent the usage and etymology of these passages. Once again...nice try.


    Really? The english translation of creature is the proper definition out of the 4 which is porperly given due to the context it is apllied to. Again...Nice try


    It appears as though you attempt to do your research but you begin stepping off on a false premise and end up putting your own foot in your mouth. These words you speak are best suited on the one who has spokent them.

    No you really didnt try very hard at all because have only proven your own sluggardly approach ignoring context and etymology not to mention your clear absence of understanding the absolute declarations of God and giving more power to the relative verses of scripture.

    It is so strange that you apply this to me when you yourself are the mirror image of your own judgment of me. It is you who have been refuted and all your claims that Christ is ONLY the savior of His sheep. He came and gave His life a ransom for all creation but it is His sheep whom the Father has given Him that walk in rightiousness now this is why they understand and the rest do not at this time. All others will be saved after their physical death. They will be raised in the second resurrection to the judgment where they too shall be made whole through the lake of fire which is symbolic for the Holy spirit. They experience the wrath of God which will burn away all unrightiousness and it is in this way that the WORLD will learn rightiousness. Then every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Then God will be all in all.



    God bless, Dave
     
  16. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    truth101 said…Yes out of the 4 definitions availbale for this word the context clearly demands that "creation" be the choice of definitions but you cannot apply this definition to Romans 8:19 as you erroniously attempt to mislead and misrepresent the usage and etymology of these passages. Once again...nice try.


    Well at least the “always” theory is understood!

    Now Let’s see if “your cannot apply” theory holds water?

    Romans 8:19
    19 For the earnest expectation of the {creation “ktisis”} waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    Has the text been distorted in any way?

    No!
    In Fact it has been enhance!

    Let’s see Why?

    The Hebrew word “nephesh” is properly understood as breathing creature, animals or men (to breathe)

    The Hebrew word “chay” is properly understood as to live (any thing that is alive)

    However, the Greek word “ktisis” creations (includes everything that was created).

    Ktisis is from the Greek word “ktizo” to create or make from the Creator.

    So much for your “etymology” theory!

    19 For the earnest expectation of the {creation “ktisis”} waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    Notice two points in this text, why creation is a more excellent choice for this verse than creature.
    • If creature is used then it implies one (singular)
    Not every or the whole or all or even some, meaning more than one creature)!

    This fact alone destroys the universal theory that has been fudged out of this text.

    But the goal of a true workman that rightly divides the Word of Truth is to hold back any conclusion until the passage in question has been studies in the light of the Whole Bible.
    • If God wanted this text to read creatures that would include all breathing things.
    This could have been done easily if God so choose.

    The Greek word “ktisma” (which is also from the Greek word “ktizo” to create or make from the Creator), would have been used!

    The major difference is that ktisma is used in the plural form when God wants to include more than one (singular) breathing thing.
    James 1:18
    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”ktisma”


    This is a very important distinction when considering Romans 8:19
    19 For the earnest expectation of the {creation “ktisis”} waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the {creation “ktisis”} was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the {creation “ktisis
    ”} itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation “ktisis
    ” groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body


    Because we know that the context is talking about the Whole creation verse 22.

    We know the word creature only implies to one (singular).

    We know the word ”ktisma” was not used to include every, all, whole or even some, meaning more than one creature)

    The clearer translation would be creation to fit the text perfectly!


    Also note That the creations waits for the sons of God to be glorified! (vs 19)

    The creation didn’t sin and was subject to the curse (vanity,vs 20).

    The creation will be re-created and will be part of the surrounding of the New heaven and New earth were the children of God dwell (vs 21)

    The whole creation (vs 22) still groans (under the curse with thorns,earthquakes,etc)

    Not only is the whole creation waiting for Christ to remove the curse on the Earth, We also who are the Sons of God, the Children of God wait for the redemption of our earthly
    Body to be re-created into Christ glorious Body. (vs 23)
     
  17. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Actually it was obviously not understood by you. The word creation is the english word in scripture. what I am saying is every time the word "creature" is used it is refering to flesh whether animal or human. I did not say that the Greek word "ktisis" is used it is refering to flesh whether animal or human. Do you see the difference?
    Yes it has been distorted to say what your want it to say. The context demands that creature be the proper translation which it is properly translated since "creature" is in contrast to to the elect of God. Furthermore the next verse shows this is not speaking of the whole creation as you erroniously inserted here. The next verse says "for the "creature" was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope".
    Now if the context is demanding "whole creation" here as you have implied than how can the physical universe and all physical matter (excluding people and animals) be subjected to vanity by God and also subject it to hope as if it can hope in the first place. this is not a figurative statement in these passages, they are quite clear and concise. You however are attempting to pervert the true intention of this passage to avoid dealing with the fact that there is no way for you to talk your way around this. The fact remains that it is translated properly as creature and the word creature (not the word "ktisis" is always refering to flesh and blood.or even possible spirit beings at the very most. It is never refering to physical planets and stars and rocks and dirt, etc, etc. This passage is stating the truth that all creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption and into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    No, it has perverted it and taken a grand view of Gods perfect plan of universal salvation and made of none affect.

    Yes, you are contrasting a Hebrew word with a Greek word here. You cannot do this and rule out the Greek by using the Hebrew.
    Yes all these Hebrew words are refering to all that has breath and is alive but again these are Hebrew words and I fail to see your point in contrasting these with a Greek word. It is an emty attempt to find out what a Greek word means by looking to a Hebrew word and then basing your choice of a Greek defintion on a definition in Hebrew. This is bad scholarship once again on your part.
    Again you do the same thing. You have taken these Hebrew nouns and compared them to Greek nouns which are 2 different languages with different ranges of defintions.

    Yes now you have taken the adjective of a noun and attempted to eliminate the creation of mankind or living creatures in your poor strawman attempt to twist what the Greek word "Ktisis" means. "Ktisis" is a noun and is refering to either "creation", "creature", ordinance and building, and depending on the context in question these words are chosen. The problem is that "creature" is used properly in this context based on contrast and reference and you will not accept it because it proves your eternal hell theory wrong.

    So much for your attempt to disprove Gods plan for the salvation of every "creature".

    You have proven nothing here. This word "ktisis" does not need to be pluralised because it is a Greek word which is refering to all that was formed or created which includes mankfind and every animal and every thing. It is the soeaking of all that is formed and fabricated and made by God. You erroniously try to excluse mankind as to avoid admitting that your theology of eternal tormewnt cannot possible exist in light of this passage.

    LOL, this has destroyed nothing. You have only exposed your crazy way of twisting scripture to say what you want. All this because you refuse to accept all the many, many passages in scripture which declare and demand universal reconciliation.

    Oh, here we go again. It is you who have divided scripture and eliminated what you dont want it to say. That is all your have done.

    No He couldn't because this is and adjective and implies the act of creating or making not actually the noun that refers to the thing that is made. These are different words with different purposes and expression.

    The "S" in this passage. The Greek word does not have a plural and niether should. The same "S" could be added to Rom:8-19 as well. The plural is not needed in the Greek because that word without the "S" is speaking of all creatures. I will expand my explaination. The word "creation" (ktisis) also does not have a plural. You do not add an "S" to the end to expand its broad sence and neither do you need to in Greek either. Creations do not add anything to this word and by removing the "S" does not take anything away from it either. It is a word which includes all in question without pluralising it. This is the Greek language not the english.


    Will continue
     
  18. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    Bibleonly said:


    All this talk and your still have not realised that These Greek words do not exclude Humanity one iota. Infact it is Humanity that is in view here. All these Greek words especially "whole creation" as you yourself state is proper, include humanity (all creatures). You have made the word of God of none affect by insisting that humanity is excluded concerning "whole creation". You can pluralise depluralise till the cows come home but we are still left with humanity (all creation) in view here, the physical universe, all humanity, every creature. Let me repeat myself one more time.

    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they,(This is not contrasting "they" as the physical universe to those who have the firstfruits. It is contrasting those (mankind) which do not have the firstfruits of the spirit to those who do.) but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    The redemption of their physical fleshly bodies. This is what the creature (all mankind) is groaning for. I do not deny that the physical universe is included in this but you deny that the human race is included in the whole creation.
    This is why you lack the ability to comprehend Gods plan of reconciling the WORLD to Him. You twist and squirm everytime the very thought of God saving all is implied or even declared and then your begin to twist the scriptures to save your pride from the thought that you are wrong.
    It took me quite some time to admit it myself and you too will one day have to take these declarations seriously and lay down this idol of your heart that God only loves some of His creation and He has only planned and purposed to save some and has planned and purposed to torment the rest in a literal pit of fire for all eternity. Nice...Nice message.

    Christ Triumphent, no if's, and's or but's about it.
    Dave
     
  19. bibleonly

    bibleonly Member

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    Truth101said…All this talk and your still have not realised that These Greek words do not exclude Humanity one iota. Infact it is Humanity that is in view here. All these Greek words especially "whole creation" as you yourself state is proper, include humanity (all creatures). You have made the word of God of none affect by insisting that humanity is excluded concerning "whole creation". You can pluralise depluralise till the cows come home but we are still left with humanity (all creation) in view here, the physical universe, all humanity, every creature. Let me repeat myself one more time.

    First of all, I never said that the {creation “ktisis”} excluded animals and mankind
    This is from your own hallucinations!


    At least we are making progress on three issues
    1. Your “ktisis always refers to flesh” theory has been abandon!
    2. Your “your cannot apply creation to Rom.” theory in no longer viable!
    3. Your etymology theory has been discredited!


    Now this New theory of “When God speaks of creation He Always includes All of Humanity”

    I wonder if you notice a pattern developing?

    Let’s go to the Scriptures to see if this proposed conjecture is valid!

    The word creation “ktisis” includes everything that created seen and unseen!

    However, Just because God talks about His {creation “ktisis”} that doesn’t mean He has to always included Humanity.

    Gen. 1:1
    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    The first verse of the Bible should have taught you that point!

    Man is not in view until the sixth day!

    The Problem lies with your arrogance, you will not let the Bible define the meaning before you introduce your far fetch notions!

    You have come to the scriptures with predetermined baggage!

    You have come to this text with preconceived notions!

    You have come to the Bible with your cockeye interpolation of the word creature.
    {That When God talks about creation that He is Always including all of Humanity theory!}

    This is a myth that was subtly contrived by you and your cohorts to disgrace the Work of Christ on the Cross, to make it of no-effect!
    2Peter 1:16
    16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
     
  20. Truth101

    Truth101 Member

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    bibleonly said:
    Wow, after reading your whole post you contradict your own opening defense. You say here that you never said this and then you say in your next statement "The word creation “ktisis” includes everything that created seen and unseen!
    However, (However? :rolleyes: )Just because God talks about His {creation “ktisis”} that doesn’t mean He has to always included Humanity
    .".

    If creation includes everything that is created and seen by your own admition then how can you follow this with "however"? This word "ktisis" really does cover everything in creation. You just do not want to admit it under any circumstances because it proves my whole stand. Then, you continue with this false premise for the rest of your post leaving everything your say remaining your own allusion. Lets once again set you straight shall we?
    Another false premise coming from the history of our conversations. "Ktisis" always INCLUDES flesh, not ONLY flesh as you are stating I said.
    Another false claim not to mention deceiptful misrepresentation of what I said. Although upon firther investigation of these passages it would appear that the whole passage should contain the word "creature" including verse 22 because it is people who are in view here. Not to mention I noticed that you removed the word "they" out of my quote in my very last post.. How very decieptful of you. I guess you thought by removing the word "they" you could remove the thought of humans being in focus here. Very subtle and deceiptful.
    You have discredited nothing at all. Your whole theory is based on a false premise to begin with and you know this is true since you found it nescessary to delete a portionof scripture in order to further your deciptful theory of eternal torment. Furthermore, going back to your removal of the word "they", did you not ever read at the end of revelation, "if any man" add to the word or remove from the word their is a consequence to it?

    Lets see your pattern.

    You contradict yourself here as I have already stated.

    Well there it is. You take a Hebrew word which has a different definition range than the Greek word in question and to further your exposed heresy you use a hebrew word speaking in past tense which is also an adjective and not a noun as "ktisis" is. "creature", "creation" are nouns. They are things (physical universe, all humanity, etc) created. You take an adjective speaking in past tence and contrast it with a noun. "created" is an adjective and "creation" is a noun. Even if it was possible to compare the definitions of a Hebrew word with a Greek word you cannot contrast an adjective to a noun and think they are synonymous. This is just absolutely ridiculous.

    Ok, now that you are done with your false insinuations you can look back on my last statement here and ask anyone what problem you have faced by using this as an argument. This is all rehtoric.
    You do follow cunningly devised fables of your own imagination and you just proved it on this very post and the last post I quoted from you. I just didn't notice that you deleted the word "they" from your quote of my post. I quote directly from my online bible which was pasted on my post and you quoted it and removed the word "they". Don't get me wrong, I understand fully why you did that. It blows your eternal torment docrine out of the bible not to mention the rest of this theology you carry which is not scriptural.
    So lets see what has been establish in truth.
    1: Your removal of the word "they" in Romans 8:23 is a blatent misuse of Gods word. It was a desperate attempt to save all you have to hang on to this eternal torment doctrine.
    2: You have attempted to establish a limited definition of a Greek noun using a Hebrew adjective as a contrasting synonym which the grammar police would immediately imprison you for.
    3: Your attempt to eliminate humanity from a passage which is speaking of all of creation especialy humanity since "THEY" are the ones contrasted with "but we also who have the first fruits of the spirit" has been obliterated.

    I praise God every day that His love far exceeds the doctrine which you and others like you claim will end at some point just so His wrath can take over without mercy for all eternity.
    We are told to love our enemies as we love ourselves. We are to bless those who persecute us. We are to turn the other cheek. All these are the expressed characteristics of God and we are to be as He is and this is what we are to do in order to be as He is. Those who strive to do the will of the Father become as Christ so when we see Him we shall be like HIm who is the expressed image of the Father. WHere do we find such hatred? In the word of God? No, rather in the minds of men who follow cunningly devised fables whether divised from their own mind or indoctrinated in them from youth.
    God bless you and forgive you for you know not what you do. This is a genuine prayer not sarcasm. I really do pray that you gain understanding and I leave that in His capable hands.
    God Bless, Dave


     
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