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Essence Energies questions and Panen-Theism?

DanielR

Active Member
Hi all :)

I have two questions, do you personally consider god's energies distinct from his essence, I read that opinions differ on that matter, some say it is a real distinction some say it isn't?

Can we say that creation consists of God's energies or is creation entirely separate from God's energies?

My second question is concerned with Panen-theism? What exactly is the difference to Pan-Entheism as understood in Eastern religions like Hinduism etc?

Thanks a lot !! Other questions regarding that topic might follow :D
 

DanielR

Active Member
what is the difference between the Logos and God's energies, so many concepts, it's a bit confusing lol :)
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Hi all :)

I have two questions, do you personally consider god's energies distinct from his essence, I read that opinions differ on that matter, some say it is a real distinction some say it isn't?
Yes, according to St. Gregory Palamas (the man who's credited with defining the Essence-Energies distinction as we know it today), they are! :) This was one of his biggest points, and the way in which we Orthodox Christians can say that God is both transcendant and immanent; God is transcendant and wholly unknowable in His Essence, but is immanent and capable of being experienced and known in His Energies. Both God's Essence and Energies are a "part" of Him (if we can speak of God having "parts").

Can we say that creation consists of God's energies or is creation entirely separate from God's energies?
Creation is entirely separate God's energies, but God's energies completely penetrate and fill creation. As it says in Acts 17:28, "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’"

My second question is concerned with Panen-theism? What exactly is the difference to Pan-Entheism as understood in Eastern religions like Hinduism etc?
Panentheism literally means "God in all." God is IN all of creation, i.e. His Energies fill all of creation. But, contrary to what some people have been saying lately, creation is not a "part" of God. Hinduism teaches pantheism, the idea that all things ARE God, and vice-versa. We Orthodox very strongly deny this. Creation and God are two completely different, separate things. We Orthodox would very strongly reject the idea that creation was created from parts or emanations of God; God created the world out of nothing, as is stated clearly in 2 Maccabees 17:28 "I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise." In our Vespers and Liturgy, when the priest pronounces a blessing over the congregation, he says this:

"We give You thanks, O invisible King, Who by Your immeasurable power has fashioned all things, and in the greatness of Your mercy has brought all things out of non-existence into being."

And in another place,

"It is proper and just to sing hymns to You, to bless You, to praise You, to thank You, to worship You in every place of Your kingdom; for You are God ineffable inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing, yet ever the same, You, and Your only-begotten Son, and Your Holy Spirit; You brought us forth from non-existence into being, and raised us up again when we had fallen, and left nothing undone, until You brought us to heaven and bestowed upon us Your future kingdom."

Thanks a lot !! Other questions regarding that topic might follow :D
Alright, I'd be glad to answer them! :D

Peace and God bless! :)
 

DanielR

Active Member
oh, wow, thanks shiranui for this extensive posts, you answered all my questions!! :D

Thank you so much!
 

DanielR

Active Member
Shiranui,

would you say God needed to make 'room' first for creation? Like if there is only God, how can creation exist next to him? As far as I can tell, God created the universe from Nothing, but God is not a Nothing? Do you know what I mean? lol :)
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Shiranui,

would you say God needed to make 'room' first for creation? Like if there is only God, how can creation exist next to him? As far as I can tell, God created the universe from Nothing, but God is not a Nothing? Do you know what I mean? lol :)
That's actually a very interesting question. :D You're right, God definitely isn't a "Nothing;" Creating everything out of nothing entails creating a world in which that creation can be made.
 

DanielR

Active Member
That's actually a very interesting question. :D You're right, God definitely isn't a "Nothing;" Creating everything out of nothing entails creating a world in which that creation can be made.

Okay, thank you anyways, so I take it there's not really an answer on how the universe was created really? :D lol

I'm asking because in Kabbalah (Isaac Luria) God created a space where to place creation into, I was wondering what EOC teaches on that.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Okay, thank you anyways, so I take it there's not really an answer on how the universe was created really? :D lol

I'm asking because in Kabbalah (Isaac Luria) God created a space where to place creation into, I was wondering what EOC teaches on that.
I don't think we really elaborate on how God created the universe; it's acknowledged that this is a mystery, and we'll never be able to grasp it in its entirety. We're very comfortable with admitting our own lack of understanding of how God does/did/will do the things He does/did/will do.

But, offering my own personal opinion, it's acknowledged in our tradition that God "exists" in a way beyond how we "exist"--IOW, He's "super-existential." So, before making creation, God created an entire lower level of existence. It's this lower level of existence upon which God made everything. I suppose you could call that the "space" God created to place creation into.
 
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