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ERVs are NOT Proof of Common Ancestry with Chimps!

ftacky

Member
The theory that identical ERVs or HERVs (human endogenous retroviruses) found at a similar location in the genome of both humans and chimps, thus proving a common ancestor, has been found to be completely contrary to recent studies. Newer studies now show numerous cases of multiple identical ERV sites found in COMPLETELY UNRELATED SPECIES: sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc. and the list keeps growing... Statistically, we can no longer conclude these are unique situations pointing to any proof whatsoever of common descent. It is most likely that initial studies were done primarily on humans and chimps rather than other mammals and this skewed the data.

Recent discoveries show genetic sequences labeled as ERVs are MANDATORY FOR BASIC BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT WHICH SURVIVAL IS IMPOSSIBLE:

A partial list of mandatory functions recently discovered to be directly attributed to ERVs:
a) Large-scale regulation of our genome as a whole.
b) Direct support and regulation of our immune system.
c) Aid in the production of countless proteins mandatory for life.
d) Prevention of miscarriages.
e) Mutations within retrovirus-like sequences actually cause disease, thus proving their mandatory nature.
f) Etc., etc., etc..

The most parsimonious explanation for this is that retroviral-like elements are not ERVs but INTRINSIC genetic material that have always existed in our genome as a necessity for life, rather then leftover foreign pathological viruses.

1) How could humans and other animals survive at all without the genetic materials essential for life BEFORE they became infected by ERVs?
2) Why don't we see ERV insertions into germ cells today?
3) Why would such infections be preserved, even through apoptosis and unfavorable selection of infected organisms?
4) What made ERVs change from viral activities and acquire transcriptional abilities to create essential genes?
5) What made ERVs immediately turn into essential gene regulators upon insertion?
6) Why have ERVs - initially pathological - NEVER been proven to cause disease but have been proven to be favorable for life instead?
7) What made the identical ERV transcribe differently in humans and chimps?

Way too many hard questions for which the answers make no sense - without genetic fantasy scenarios - and more importantly, remain unproven. Ad hoc (makeshift or improvised) arguments WITHOUT POSITIVE EVIDENCE are often used in an attempt to explain away these inconsistencies and maintain an evolutionary bias.

"A clear PROOF for the existence of a HERV capable of productive replication REMAINS ELUSIVE..."
(Ref: PNAS October 5, 2004 vol. 101 no. Suppl 2 14572-14579)

“Our data reveal that the activity of endogenous retroviruses is regulated differentially and is cell type specific, SIMILAR TO NORMAL GENE REGULATION … our findings suggest that HERVs BEHAVE LIKE NORMAL CELLULAR GENES and are a permanent component of the transcriptome of a cell.” (Ref: Journal Of Virology, 1/2005)

“In short, the notion that molecules of germ cells … are in states of perpetual change is not, in our present understanding of cell biology, tenable. This doesn’t mean that “molecular change” does not occur; only that mechanisms provoking such change in germ cells are likely instantaneous and stochastic and probably OFTEN LETHAL – which WILL PRECLUDE their persistence into future generations.”
(Ref: MIT Press Journals, Fall 2006, Vol.1)

"Several ERVs appear to PROVIDE PROTECTION FROM INFECTION and are INVOLVED IN REPRODUCTION...Studies in cultured cells have shown that a protein of a HERV might have a ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN PLACENTA...Miscarriage is a serious medical problem for all mammals, including humans." (Ref: "ERVs are Required for pregnancy in Sheep", Science Daily)

"Within this locus we find two incidents of independent, multiple SINE insertion events at identical sites. These results have major repercussions for phylogenetic analyses based on SINE insertions, indicating the need for caution before interpreting shared SINE insertions as incontrovertible evidence of common ancestry..." (Ref: Genetics: An Ancient Retrovirus-like Element Contains Hot Spots for SINE Insertion)

Romans 1
...they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their MAGINATIONS, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 
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Parsimony

Well-Known Member
The theory that identical ERVs or HERVs (human endogenous retroviruses) found at a similar location in the genome of both humans and chimps, thus proving a common ancestor, has been found to be completely contrary to recent studies. Newer studies now show numerous cases of multiple identical ERV sites found in COMPLETELY UNRELATED SPECIES: sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc. and the list keeps growing... Statistically, we can no longer conclude these are unique situations pointing to any proof whatsoever of common descent. It is most likely that initial studies were done primarily on humans and chimps rather than other mammals and this skewed the data.
But what percentage of ERVs sites are shared in the same sites between sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc? Humans and chimps share most of their 98,000 ERVs, not just a few.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That is a lot of details that go over my head. Let me start by asking; how do you believe humans got here? Please, don't just say what you don't believe.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
The theory that identical ERVs or HERVs (human endogenous retroviruses) found at a similar location in the genome of both humans and chimps, thus proving a common ancestor, has been found to be completely contrary to recent studies. Newer studies now show numerous cases of multiple identical ERV sites found in COMPLETELY UNRELATED SPECIES: sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc. and the list keeps growing... Statistically, we can no longer conclude these are unique situations pointing to any proof whatsoever of common descent. It is most likely that initial studies were done primarily on humans and chimps rather than other mammals and this skewed the data.

Recent discoveries show genetic sequences labeled as ERVs are MANDATORY FOR BASIC BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT WHICH SURVIVAL IS IMPOSSIBLE:

A partial list of mandatory functions recently discovered to be directly attributed to ERVs:
a) Large-scale regulation of our genome as a whole.
b) Direct support and regulation of our immune system.
c) Aid in the production of countless proteins mandatory for life.
d) Prevention of miscarriages.
e) Mutations within retrovirus-like sequences actually cause disease, thus proving their mandatory nature.
f) Etc., etc., etc..

The most parsimonious explanation for this is that retroviral-like elements are not ERVs but INTRINSIC genetic material that have always existed in our genome as a necessity for life, rather then leftover foreign pathological viruses.

1) How could humans and other animals survive at all without the genetic materials essential for life BEFORE they became infected by ERVs?
2) Why don't we see ERV insertions into germ cells today?
3) Why would such infections be preserved, even through apoptosis and unfavorable selection of infected organisms?
4) What made ERVs change from viral activities and acquire transcriptional abilities to create essential genes?
5) What made ERVs immediately turn into essential gene regulators upon insertion?
6) Why have ERVs - initially pathological - NEVER been proven to cause disease but have been proven to be favorable for life instead?
7) What made the identical ERV transcribe differently in humans and chimps?

Way too many hard questions for which the answers make no sense - without genetic fantasy scenarios - and more importantly, remain unproven. Ad hoc (makeshift or improvised) arguments WITHOUT POSITIVE EVIDENCE are often used in an attempt to explain away these inconsistencies and maintain an evolutionary bias.

"A clear PROOF for the existence of a HERV capable of productive replication REMAINS ELUSIVE..."
(Ref: PNAS October 5, 2004 vol. 101 no. Suppl 2 14572-14579)

“Our data reveal that the activity of endogenous retroviruses is regulated differentially and is cell type specific, SIMILAR TO NORMAL GENE REGULATION … our findings suggest that HERVs BEHAVE LIKE NORMAL CELLULAR GENES and are a permanent component of the transcriptome of a cell.” (Ref: Journal Of Virology, 1/2005)

“In short, the notion that molecules of germ cells … are in states of perpetual change is not, in our present understanding of cell biology, tenable. This doesn’t mean that “molecular change” does not occur; only that mechanisms provoking such change in germ cells are likely instantaneous and stochastic and probably OFTEN LETHAL – which WILL PRECLUDE their persistence into future generations.”
(Ref: MIT Press Journals, Fall 2006, Vol.1)

"Several ERVs appear to PROVIDE PROTECTION FROM INFECTION and are INVOLVED IN REPRODUCTION...Studies in cultured cells have shown that a protein of a HERV might have a ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN PLACENTA...Miscarriage is a serious medical problem for all mammals, including humans." (Ref: "ERVs are Required for pregnancy in Sheep", Science Daily)

"Within this locus we find two incidents of independent, multiple SINE insertion events at identical sites. These results have major repercussions for phylogenetic analyses based on SINE insertions, indicating the need for caution before interpreting shared SINE insertions as incontrovertible evidence of common ancestry..." (Ref: Genetics: An Ancient Retrovirus-like Element Contains Hot Spots for SINE Insertion)
Some people think they just came from some scary *** family. What kind of scary *** ancestry you got? a baboon,a cat, a fox. Just hanging with some of a fourth dimension. I'm not coming over. Cat lives matter, baboon lives matter, fox lives matter, alien life form matter. lol. Common sense must have a common denominator. or they go terminator? no they shouldnt.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Some people think they just came from some scary *** family. What kind of scary *** ancestry you got? a baboon,a cat, a fox. Just hanging with some of a fourth dimension. I'm not coming over. Cat lives matter, baboon lives matter, fox lives matter, alien life form matter. lol. Common sense must have a common denominator. or they go terminator? no they shouldnt.
I got humans, then Neanderthals, homo erectus (snort) homo habilis etc. they're not scary they're fascinating. Insects are scary though. I mean Jesus that world is beyond scary. Stuff of nightmares and sci fi come to fruition.
Mind control, parasitic hatching and so forth. Ew.
And of course lives matter. In the wild life is just harsh is all.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I got humans, then Neanderthals, homo erectus (snort) homo habilis etc. they're not scary they're fascinating. Insects are scary though. I mean Jesus that world is beyond scary. Stuff of nightmares and sci fi come to fruition.
Mind control, parasitic hatching and so forth. Ew.
And of course lives matter. In the wild life is just harsh is all.
lol Dear Reader; ..........
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I got humans, then Neanderthals, homo erectus (snort) homo habilis etc. they're not scary they're fascinating. Insects are scary though. I mean Jesus that world is beyond scary. Stuff of nightmares and sci fi come to fruition.
Mind control, parasitic hatching and so forth. Ew.
And of course lives matter. In the wild life is just harsh is all.
my cat killed a rabbit yesterday true story I almost save it because I raised the cat she as many traits like me but I am totally different from my fluff and puff; but a human doing that to his baboon ancestor or humanoid that came from one or one who believes so is.... IS not okay.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
my cat killed a rabbit yesterday true story I almost save it because I raised the cat she as many traits like me but I am totally different from my fluff and puff; but a human doing that to his baboon ancestor or humanoid that came from one or one who believes so is.... IS not okay.
Yes well cats do that. Hunting instinct and the like.
I'm confused. Are you saying we shouldn't kill baboons? Or that we should raise baboons? That we shouldn't kill at all? I'm not sure what you're saying. o_O
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
but your ancestry might be something else; if that's the case no getting along in the wild.
Like hell I'd go out in the wild, mate. There's snakes and spiders and Tassie devils. There's no baths or internet or pokemon go or Xbox or laptops or clothes or Disney or Pop Vinyls. I'm happy being a good for nothing indolent modern human, thank you.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
To continue...
Recent discoveries show genetic sequences labeled as ERVs are MANDATORY FOR BASIC BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT WHICH SURVIVAL IS IMPOSSIBLE:

A partial list of mandatory functions recently discovered to be directly attributed to ERVs:
a) Large-scale regulation of our genome as a whole.
b) Direct support and regulation of our immune system.
c) Aid in the production of countless proteins mandatory for life.
d) Prevention of miscarriages.
e) Mutations within retrovirus-like sequences actually cause disease, thus proving their mandatory nature.
f) Etc., etc., etc..
Some ERVs are extremely old (over 100 million years) and since their insertion have become genes subject to selection pressure just like any other gene in an organism's DNA. The fact that some became integrated into the normal functioning of some organisms is unsurprising for this reason.
The most parsimonious explanation for this is that retroviral-like elements are not ERVs but INTRINSIC genetic material that have always existed in our genome as a necessity for life, rather then leftover foreign pathological viruses.
Right... despite the fact that the HERV-K family has successfully been resurrected as the Phoenix virus which is indeed capable of infecting cells. Also, full-sequence ERVs are known which have the LTR-gag-pol-env-LTR and target site duplication genetic sequence seen in retroviral insertions. ERVs are also known which produce bits and pieces of viruses (although they do not produce complete viruses) in humans. Retroviruses are known with have both endogenous and exogenous variants. They are very much retroviral insertions and have all of the properties and hallmarks of them. There's no other sensible way to look at it.
1) How could humans and other animals survive at all without the genetic materials essential for life BEFORE they became infected by ERVs?
They didn't because those species didn't exist yet. Humans are only a few million years old (depending on how you define a human) whereas many of the ERV insertions in human DNA took place much, much longer ago than that and were inherited from our distant ancestors.
2) Why don't we see ERV insertions into germ cells today?
We do. Take a look at koala retrovirus, for one. It is spread both horizontally (from one member of the population to another) and vertically (from parent to offspring by genetic inheritance).
3) Why would such infections be preserved, even through apoptosis and unfavorable selection of infected organisms?
That doesn't always happen. Viruses are capable of remaining undetected in an infected cell's genome when they aren't actively trying to turn it into a virus factory. This is called the lysogenic cycle, where the virus allows itself to be replicated by allowing the host cell to replicate, thus copying the viral DNA in the process. When favorable conditions arise, they can turn on their viral nature, resulting the more well-known lytic cycle. If a mutation happen immediately to the provirus in the right spot, it would remain in the lysogenic phase and thus not make the organism sick unless a back mutation occurred.
4) What made ERVs change from viral activities and acquire transcriptional abilities to create essential genes?
Knock-out mutations would have disabled the viral activities while other mutations to the viral DNA would have been selected for if they had a beneficial effect for the host. Sometimes it is even simply the reworking of an existing viral ability, like fusing cell membranes together (syncytin) for placenta development which was adapted from viral envelope-cell membrane fusion originally used to infect host cells.
5) What made ERVs immediately turn into essential gene regulators upon insertion?
They didn't. They would have been infectious and probably dangerous at first. Over time (or even immediately), mutations in the provirus would have rendered it inactive, causing it be carried along in the animal's lineage like any other gene. Further mutations, in particular to regulatory sequences within the provirus, would have affected the expression of surrounding genes in the DNA. In the cases where these regulations were beneficial, they would have been preserved and passed on to future generations. Do this enough times and what was once an infectious virus has become quite beneficial.
6) Why have ERVs - initially pathological - NEVER been proven to cause disease but have been proven to be favorable for life instead?
Again, KoRV has been demonstrated to cause disease. It's not the only one either. Mouse mammary tumor virus also has an endogenous variant.
7) What made the identical ERV transcribe differently in humans and chimps?
Not sure what you mean here. After their initial insertion, each lineage would have been subjected to its own mutations. This would have caused a degree of divergence in the sequences of human and chimp ERVs. Regardless of that, they are still very much identifiable as being the same virus families.
 
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