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Errors in Bible translations...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by t3gah, Dec 22, 2004.

?
  1. Yes

    33 vote(s)
    47.1%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    15.7%
  3. I'm not sure

    6 vote(s)
    8.6%
  4. Who cares?!

    16 vote(s)
    22.9%
  5. I don't have any bibles

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the nefilim were, they etymologically are "the fallen ones". If the TaNaK originally really wanted to describe "giants", we will never know. Anyway, the three occurrences of hannefilim in Gn 6:4 and Nu 13:33 are spelled and pointed in exactly the same way. Had there been nefilim as well as hannefilim, so what? Let's say nefilim means X. Using "X" (nefilim) or "the X" (hannefilim) should refer to the same X. I find nothing indicating that the pre- and post-Flood nefilim were different species, in spite of no explanation how they survived the Flood.

    It can sometimes be helpful to use capitalization in transcriptions to indicate names, but you should all understand that many scripts, including the major Semitic ones, don't make a difference between upper-case and lower-case letters.
     
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  2. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    New International Version
    Definition for Jehovah
    This definition is inside the chain-reference area of the NIV bible. Under the heading Israel they have a definition for Jehovah. The LORD.
     
  3. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    Some make uninformed comments with respect Moses's being the scribe for most of the Pentatuch, the first five books of the Bible, but the renown Bible dictionary, Smith's Bible Dictionary says:

    Gives the facts and clearly shows that he was the faithful divinely inspired scribe used by God (YHWH) to write most of the Pentateuch.

    With respect the exact date of its writing and the exodus of the Jews from Egypt there is a degree of uncertainty ranging from 1,500 BC to about 1,400 BC. One source gives the date as 1,400 BC as follows:

    The Date of the Exodus:
    http://www.cresourcei.org/exodusdate.html


    and,

    Archaeology and the Book of Exodus: Exit From Egypt

    http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn009/archeol.html

    and,

    Discourse on the Bible:, The Only Book Inspired by God (YHWH)

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=157

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89

     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And iris89 continues to do so, repleat with that pathetically arrogant disdain for scholarship so typical of the more backward strains of fundamentalism.

    It is, indeed, a usefull reference, but in no way renowned for its scholarship in area such as archaeology or philology. It does, however, do one thing that should bring a smile to the lips of anyone familiar with the topic. While past fundamentalists held Mosaic authorship as absolute, what we see now is the slippery eqivocation typical of someone caught between dogma and reality. So, for example:


    • "The book of Genesis ... was probably brought to very nearly its, present shape either by Moses himself or by one of the elders who acted under him."
    • "The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are to a great extent Mosaic. ..., if not actually written, in all probability dictated by him."
    • "Deuteronomy, excepting the concluding part, is entirely the work of Moses as it professes to be."

    What's happened? Faced with a text peppered with awkward wording and anachronisms, our new fundamentalists are forced to argue a Moses-of-the-Gaps, i.e., the 5 Books of Moses were probably written by Moses except for those parts for which Mosaic authorship is too embarrassing to maintain. This is the born-again truth that our puffed up iris89 wishes to preach to the "uninformed" riffraff who dare to question her wisdom.

    On the oft chance that this might be overlooked by the casual reader, note that she has offered no facts. She simply spews contempt for scholarship.

    Leaving aside that fact that there is zero evidence for the Exodus/Conquest, it is interesting that this self-proclaimed Biblical guru cannot even maintain a consistent position. Here, we are told, that the pivotal event in Jewish folklore occurred between 1500 and 1400 BCE. Yet, in her pretentious little "Discourse on Who and When The Bible Was Written and Who Was Its Author" she writes:
    However, we well know not only who wrote the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, but when they were written, and where they were written in most cases. Of course there are the misguided ones who even when presented with the evidence care not to read it, but keep up with their pseudo-knowledge criticism rather than learn, pretending to know that of which they lack knowledge about.

    Now, following are all the books of the Old Testament with their name given first, then who was the main writer of the book [some few books having had very minor parts written by others], approximate time for the completion of the Bible book, and in most cases the location it was written at clearly showing those with their pseudo-knowledge do not know of what they speak. But then they are NOT interested in learning anyhow:

    Genesis - Moses - 1513 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
    Exodus - Moses - 1512 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
    Leviticus - Moses - 1512 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
    Numbers - Moses - 1473 B.C.E., either written in the Wilderness or Plains of Moab.
    Deuteronomy - Moses - 1473 B.C.E., Plains of Moab.
    So, according to our pedantic princess of the Pentateuch, the first three books of the Torah were written before the Exodus.

    Her sermons are every bit as intellectually bankrupt as they are arrogant.
     
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  5. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    Here is a great resource for finding different passages in the Judeo Christian Bible from pretty much every version of their bible:

    http://www.bible.gospelcom.net/
     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You know Deut,

    As a truly "Born Again Christian" I find much truth in what you say. Sure, there is a lot of arrogance thrown in there as well, but you make it all so charming. :D

    Many who profess to be Chritianity are hell bent on molding scriptures, history and etymology to fit their narrow definitions of "truth". Their minds are made up and are not about to start considering the facts for what they are; the TRUTH! This is understandable as it is obvious that many hold to Christianity as merely a form of spiritual "fire insurance".

    But intellectual honesty is exceedingly rare for Christians and scholars alike, and very few "fundamentalists" really stick to the fundamentals of "faith, hope and love".
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Fortunately, I have a relatively large number of highly intelligent and intellectually honest Christian acquaintances. I am fully aware that folks like iris89 reflect a unique (and, in my opinion, uniquely repugnant) stance. It is for this reason that I try to use phrases such as "more backward strains of fundamentalism".
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    I am wrongly being accused of arrogance.

    The fact is I quoted from one of the most respectable Bible dictionaryes, the Smith Bible Dictionary, but some do not like the reality of the factx thus shown. That is their problem and not mine. The foreword of the Encyclopedia Britannica says, "Although time undoubtedly enhanced the portrait of Moses, a basic picture emerges from the sources. Five times the narratives claim that Moses kept written records (Ex. 17:14; 24:4; 34:27–28; Num. 33:2; and Deut. 31:9, 24–26)." Of course some would also call that an arrogrant writing.

    The Webster dictionary of 1913 says, "Pen"ta*teuch (?), n. [L. pentateuchus, Gr. ; (see Penta-) + a tool, implement, a book, akin to to prepare, make ready, and perh. to E. text. See Five, and Text.] The first five books of the Old Testament, collectively; -- called also the Law of Moses, Book of the Law of Moses, etc."



    The 1911 edition of Encyclopedia Braitannica said, "

    (R. I. P.)PENTATEUCH, the name found as early as in Tertullian and Origen corresponding to the Jewish ~ren mm imn (the five-fifths of the Torah, or Law), and applied to the first fivebooks of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Num-bers, Deuteronomy). The several books were named by theJews from their initial words, though at least Leviticus,Numbers, and Deuteronomy had also titles resembling thosewe use, viz. ~~1i 1VTh7, D.flP~ I7~fl (As~eKw~ap, Origen, in Eus., H. E. Vi, 25), and nm rum, The Pentateuch, together with Joshua, Judges and Ruth, with which it is usuallyunited in Greek MSS., makes up the Octateuch; the Pentateuch and Joshua together "
    have recently been named the Hexateuch.On the critical questions arising from the Pentateuch or Hexa-teuch, see BIBLE and the articles on the several books. - PENTECOST, a feast of the Jews, in its original meaning a harvest feast, as consisting of the first-fruits of human toil (Exod. xxiii. i 6), extending over the seven weeks which fairly correspond with the duration of the Canaanite harvest. Henceit was the closing feast of the harvest gladness.The agricultural character of this feast clearly reveals itsCanaanite origin (see HEBREW RELIGION). It does not, however, rank equal in importance with the other two agricultural festivalsof pre-exilian Israel, viz, the Mas..~Oth or feast of unleavened cakes (which marked the beginning of the corn-harvest), andthe Asiph ( "

    From Easton Bible Dictionary, "


    Pentateuch - the five-fold volume, consisting of the first five books of the Old Testament. This word does not occur in Scripture, nor is it certainly known when the roll was thus divided into five portions Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Probably that was done by the LXX. translators. Some modern critics speak of a Hexateuch, introducing the Book of Joshua as one of the group. But this book is of an entirely different character from the other books, and has a different author. It stands by itself as the first of a series of historical books beginning with the entrance of the Israelites into Canaan. (See <A href="http://www.ccel.org/pager.cgi?file=e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0002100.html&from=T0002114&up=e/easton/ebd/ebd.html">JOSHUA.)

    The books composing the Pentateuch are properly but one book, the "Law of Moses," the "Book of the Law of Moses," the "Book of Moses," or, as the Jews designate it, the "Torah" or "Law." That in its present form it "proceeds from a single author is proved by its plan and aim, according to which its whole contents refer to the covenant concluded between Jehovah and his people, by the instrumentality of Moses, in such a way that everything before his time is perceived to be preparatory to this fact, and all the rest to be the development of it. Nevertheless, this unity has not been stamped upon it as a matter of necessity by the latest redactor: it has been there from the beginning, and is visible in the first plan and in the whole execution of the work.", Keil, Einl. i.d. A. T.

    A certain school of critics have set themselves to reconstruct the books of the Old Testament. By a process of "scientific study" they have discovered that the so-called historical books of the Old Testament are not history at all, but a miscellaneous collection of stories, the inventions of many different writers, patched together by a variety of editors! As regards the Pentateuch, they are not ashamed to attribute fraud, and even conspiracy, to its authors, who sought to find acceptance to their work which was composed partly in the age of Josiah, and partly in that of Ezra and Nehemiah, by giving it out to be the work of Moses! This is not the place to enter into the details of this controversy. We may say frankly, however, that we have no faith in this "higher criticism." It degrades the books of the Old Testament below the level of fallible human writings, and the arguments on which its speculations are built are altogether untenable.

    The evidences in favour of the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch are conclusive. We may thus state some of them briefly:

    (1.) These books profess to have been written by Moses in the name of God (Ex. 17:14; 24:3, 4, 7; 32:7-10, 30-34; 34:27; Lev. 26:46; 27:34; Deut. 31:9, 24, 25).

    (2.) This also is the uniform and persistent testimony of the Jews of all sects in all ages and countries (comp. Josh. 8:31, 32; 1 Kings 2:3; Jer. 7:22; Ezra 6:18; Neh. 8:1; Mal. 4:4; Matt. 22:24; Acts 15:21). (3.) Our Lord plainly taught the Mosaic authorship of these books (Matt. 5:17, 18; 19:8; 22:31, 32; 23:2; Mark 10:9; 12:26; Luke 16:31; 20:37; 24:26, 27, 44; John 3:14; 5:45, 46, 47; 6:32, 49; 7:19, 22). In the face of this fact, will any one venture to allege either that Christ was ignorant of the composition of the Bible, or that, knowing the true state of the case, he yet encouraged the people in the delusion they clung to? (4.) From the time of Joshua down to the time of Ezra there is, in the intermediate historical books, a constant reference to the Pentateuch as the "Book of the Law of Moses." This is a point of much importance, inasmuch as the critics deny that there is any such reference; and hence they deny the historical character of the Pentateuch. As regards the Passover, e.g., we find it frequently spoken of or alluded to in the historical books following the Pentateuch, showing that the "Law of Moses" was then certainly known. It was celebrated in the time of Joshua (Josh. 5:10, cf. 4:19), Hezekiah (2 Chr. 30), Josiah (2 Kings 23; 2 Chr. 35), and Zerubbabel (Ezra 6:19-22), and is referred to in such passages as 2 Kings 23:22; 2 Chr. 35:18; 1 Kings 9:25 ("three times in a year"); 2 Chr. 8:13. Similarly we might show frequent references to the Feast of Tabernacles and other Jewish institutions, although we do not admit that any valid argument can be drawn from the silence of Scripture in such a case. An examination of the following texts, 1 Kings 2:9; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chr. 23:18; 25:4; 34:14; Ezra 3:2; 7:6; Dan. 9:11, 13, will also plainly show that the "Law of Moses" was known during all these centuries. Granting that in the time of Moses there existed certain oral traditions or written records and documents which he was divinely led to make use of in his history, and that his writing was revised by inspired successors, this will fully account for certain peculiarities of expression which critics have called "anachronisms" and "contradictions," but in no way militates against the doctrine that Moses was the original author of the whole of the Pentateuch. It is not necessary for us to affirm that the whole is an original composition; but we affirm that the evidences clearly demonstrate that Moses was the author of those books which have come down to us bearing his name. The Pentateuch is certainly the basis and necessary preliminary of the whole of the Old Testament history and literature. (See DEUTERONOMY.) "



    </I></I></B>

    So it should be clear to all what the facts are with respect the first five books of the Bible given the above data from renown sources.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Sadly, you quoted no facts, only apologetics. Now, tell us again how Moses wrote Genesis over a decade before your earliest date for the Exodus. You're not simply arrogant. You're demonstrably incoherent.
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    One poster said,

    As can clearly be seen by my last post, this poster is completely in error as I have only quoted from renown reference works. This shows a good researcher and one who only uses good sources NOT as falsely claimed an arrogant person. Personal attacks and false accusations have no place on forms, period.............

    If someone does not like to hear the facts and reality, they should not read my post, NOT make false accusations. The fact is that Moses wrote most of the Pentatuch or first five books of the Bible as a faithful scribe divinely inspired by God (YHWH) and this is recognized by all the respected reference and historical sources on the subject. Why any one is so vain as to take issue with this fact and what their hidden aggenda is I have no idea.

    But let's look at more renown reference sources on the subject and put the matter to bed and get back on upbuilding things and a STOP to false accusations and name calling which is a form of intellectual dishonesty. Let's consider what the Torah is from an encyclopedia;
    As can clearly be seen, all credit Moses (Mosche) as being the primary writer of the Torah.

    Now let's look at another well known reference source,
    As all can see I am not expressing an opinion, but dealing with facts as given in well known reference works. I am an independent researcher that digs out facts, NOT an arrogant person who thrust forth his opinions and the devil with the facts.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Iris,

    Since you seem to hold in high regard Catholic writings...... so much so you quote in another thread evidence that your entire theology is backward, uninspired, unbiblical and misguided..... I thought another Catholic commentary on the subject of this thread might help you understand your errors:

    The Pentateuch, which consists of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), enjoys particular prestige among the Jews as the "Law," or "Torah," the concrete expression of God's will in their regard. It is more than a body of legal doctrine, even though such material occupies many chapters, for it contains the story of the formation of the People of God: Abraham and the Patriarchs, Moses and the oppressed Hebrews in Egypt, the birth of Israel in the Sinai covenant, the journey to the threshold of the Promised Land, and the "discourses" of Moses.

    The grandeur of this historic sweep is the result of a careful and complex joining of several historic traditions, or sources. These are primarily four: the so-called Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomic strands that run through the Pentateuch. (They are conveniently abbreviated as J, E, P and D.) Each brings to the Torah its own characteristics, its own theological viewpoint--a rich variety of interpretation that the sensitive reader will take pains to appreciate. A superficial difference between two of these sources is responsible for their names: the Yahwist prefers the name Yahweh (represented in translation as Lord) by which God revealed himself to Israel; the Elohist prefers the generic name for God, Elohim. The Yahwist is concrete, imaginative, using many anthropomorphisms in its theological approach, as seen, e.g., in the narrative of creation in Genesis 2, compared with the Priestly version in Genesis 1. The Elohist is more sober, moralistic. The Priestly strand, which emphasizes genealogies, is more severely theological in tone. The Deuteronomic approach is characterized by the intense hortatory style of Deuteronomy 5-11, and by certain principles from which it works, such as the centralization of worship in the Jerusalem temple.

    However, even this analysis of the Pentateuch is an over-simplification , for it is not always possible to distinguish with certainty among the various sources. The fact is that each of these individual traditions incorporates much older material. The Yahwist was himself a collector and adapter. His narrative is made up of many disparate stories that have been reoriented, and given a meaning within the context in which they now stand; e.g., the story of Abraham and Isaac in Gen 22. Within the J and P traditions one has to reckon with many individual units; these had their own history and life-setting before they were brought together into the present more or less connected narrative.

    This is not to deny the role of Moses in the development of the Pentateuch. It is true we do not conceive of him as the author of the books in the modern sense. But there is no reason to doubt that, in the events described in these traditions, he had a uniquely important role, especially as lawgiver. Even the later laws which have been added in P and D are presented as a Mosaic heritage. Moses is the lawgiver par excellence, and all later legislation is conceived in his spirit, and therefore attributed to him. Hence, the reader is not held to undeviating literalness in interpreting the words, "the LORD said to Moses." One must keep in mind that the Pentateuch is the crystallization of Israel's age-old relationship with God.

    Introduction to the Pentateuch, New American Bible.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Given the absence of an Exodus/Conquest there is more than sufficient reason to doubt. But I am more curious about how one reconciles the above to the following ...
    A detailed account of the opposition to the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is neither desirable nor necessary in this article. In itself it would form only a noisome history of human errors; each little system has had its day, and its successors have tried their best to bury it in hushed oblivion. The actual difficulties we have to consider are those advanced by our actual opponents of to- day; only the fact that the systems of the past show us the fleeting and transitory character of the actual theories now in vogue can induce us to briefly enumerate the successive views upheld by the opponents of the Mosaic authorship.

    Catholic Encyclopaedia: Pentateuch
     
  13. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi SOGFPP

    Your statement,
    Is a misunderstanding as I do NOT hold Catholic theology in high regard, but consider it the most false of all the so called Christian groups. However, I do hold some Catholic researchers/scholars in high regard such as Jerome who almost became pope. Unfortunately he did not become pope or the Catholic church might actually be Christian today.

    All items I posted on the Pentatuch were to show that the first five books of the Bible were primarily written and/or compilied by Moses as another poster was taking issue with this fact.

    I only hold truth in high regard and reject all the untruths that the Catholic and Protestant Churches churn out. I do research to assist all in knowing the facts, the truth, in line with John 8:32, "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (American Standard Version; ASV).

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Do you understand that (a) facts about how Jews view the Torah is different than (b) facts about the Torah? You offer nothing but arrogant opinion.

    By the way, tell us again how your independent research convinced you that Moses authored Genesis at least a decade before the Exodus.
     
  15. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Deut. 32.8

    I have already posted the reference works with respect that. If you want information, go read what I have posted instead of asking meaningless questions.


    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You quote the encyclopaedia, specifically:

    • the Wikipedia on what is "according to Jewish tradition"
    • the Wikipedia on what "Christianity also believes"
    • the Columbia on what "is believed by Orthodox Jews"
    Therefore?

    Pompously ridiculing the question impresses me little when it comes from SOGFPP, and even less when whimpered by you.

    Not in the least.
     
  17. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Deut. 32.8



    I am only posting the facts, if you do not like facts, stick with comic books and novels.



    If you do not like the renown sources I have already given you, try the Jewish Encyclopedia. It also gives Moses as the principle writer of the first five books of the Bible as follows:



    So get real and stop with the absurd stuff.



    Your friend in Christ Iris89

     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You know, for someone who CLAIMS to know the truth, I just don't see ANY fruit consistent with that. Maybe you should try to incorporate your "beliefs" into your value system as well?

    Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
     
  19. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc

    Everything I post is related to beliefs taught in the Bible so please remove your blinders.


    Your friend in Christ Iris89
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Still looking for the love, patience and kindness bro! (That's in the Bible too!)
     
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