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Errors And Contradictions In Bible

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Radar said:
Ok.... I was not trying to be rude. I guess it is just how you take it.
Well I didn't think it was the best way to convey your meaning.
 

Radar

Active Member
Malus01 said:
There's a website on anything these days...
I know this..... I have done my research and read those websites and compared them to what is written and guess what??? They match!!!!! So I would like for those to be explain before entering into a debate with people that try to rationalize the irrational. But hey you don't have to take my word on it, do the research for yourself and let me know if you find anything different. I know that I would not take anyone's word on it. I am just asking people to do their home work first. That way everyone is on the same page and hopefully the debate will be more knowledge driven vice emotionally driven. People become irrational when to much emotion gets involved.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Radar said:
Have fun reading you may learn something.... But I doubt it, because most of you are religious zealots.
Radar said:
Ok.... I was not trying to be rude. I guess it is just how you take it.
Pay attention to the response. You may learn something. But I doubt it, because you are an anti-religious zealot. ;)
 

Radar

Active Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Pay attention to the response. You may learn something. But I doubt it, because you are an anti-religious zealot. ;)
tuche'..... It's not that I wouldn't believe, I would like some real physical proof not just written words. But I would not take offence to being called an anti-religious zealot. So my apologies, I will try to phrase my words more appropriately.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Radar said:
tuche'..... It's not that I wouldn't believe, I would like some real physical proof not just written words. But I would not take offence to being called an anti-religious zealot. So my apologies, I will try to phrase my words more appropriately.
You missed his point entirely. I believe he's trying to tell you that you may learn that "you may learn something.... But I doubt it, because most of you are religious zealots." is rude.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
Radar said:
I know this..... I have done my research and read those websites and compared them to what is written and guess what??? They match!!!!!
What is written WHERE? They match? Oh what a coincidence, so do a couple of other hundred web pages.

Either I am overtired, or you are just not making sense.
 

Radar

Active Member
Malus01 said:
What is written WHERE? They match? Oh what a coincidence, so do a couple of other hundred web pages.

Either I am overtired, or you are just not making sense.
I meant that I have compared the quotes that are on those websites to what is written in the books (torah, bible, koran) and they match up. Meaning that the contradictions or errors are there.
 

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!
JerryL said:
So you think that 1Chr 21:5 is wrong when it says that Joab reported 1,100,000 (including 470,000 in Judah)?

There you go, an error in the Bible. 1Chr 21:5.

maybe this will help..


The solution to the difference in counts for Israel seems to be answered in the Hebrew word for "valiant," which is "chayil" found in 2 Samuel 24:9. It means, "men of valor, army, host, etc." It seems to mean that the men numbered in 2 Samuel 24:9 were those with battle experience where the men of 1 Chronicles 21:5 were not. It was most probably true that there were an additional 300,000 men ready for battle who had not yet experienced it. Therefore, 2 Sam. 24:9 numbers only the experienced men, where 1 Chronicles 21:5 numbers all men of battle ready age.

Regarding Judah's number difference:
The solution seems to provided for us in the following verse six which says, "But he did not number Levi and Benjamin among them, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab," (NASB). Verse six states that the numbering process had not yet been completed since the tribes of Levi and Benjamin had not been numbered

Basic Christian Doctrine" by Matthew Slick, www.carm.org/basicdoc.htm.
 

Radar

Active Member
Malus01 said:
Has it occured to you that the websites may have taken it out of context?
Sure... But when there are two different writings in the same book on the same subject then everything should jive. As far as the Koran it isn't in any type of chronological order so who really knows in what context to take it. Either way everything should jive and it doesn't. But you have succeeded in getting me into the debate without having done your homework. Although we are not debating the contradictions or errors, which is what I wanted answered. I would like those contradictions and errors to be answered on the pages I presented in order to really debate the contradictions and errors in the books of Abrahamic beliefs.

Besides people of Abrahamic beliefs use whatever verse they choose either in or out of context to support their view or belief. So everyone should try and stay in context if not then all is fair game.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
maybe this will help..

Therefore, 2 Sam. 24:9 numbers only the experienced men, where 1 Chronicles 21:5 numbers all men of battle ready age.
It doesn't help at all. The question is not "How many men were there", the question is "How many men did Joab tell David there were".

No matter who was counted nor how nor who was ignored, the fact is that Joab told David something. What was it? We have two conflicting reports.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
JerryL said:
No matter who was counted nor how nor who was ignored, the fact is that Joab told David something. What was it? We have two conflicting reports.
<yawn> This is getting silly. </yawn>
 

dan

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
It doesn't help at all. The question is not "How many men were there", the question is "How many men did Joab tell David there were".

No matter who was counted nor how nor who was ignored, the fact is that Joab told David something. What was it? We have two conflicting reports.
The actual problem lies in the fact that the original texts here did not have vowels, and the scribes wished they did. 'eleph is the Hebrew word for 1,000. 'aluph means professional soldier. Scribes saw these words: 'lp and 'lp. When arriving at large numbers of soldiers this can get confusing. Let us review. The original texts read this way:

Chronicles:
Israel 80 'lp, 30 'lp Judah 40 'lp, 70 'lp

Samuel:
Israel 80 'lp, 30 'lp Judah 40 'lp, 70 'lp

Identical.

The man who copied Chronicles accidentally copied 800 'lp and 300 'lp (adding zeros has plagued scribes from almost all languages. Plato's texts of Atlantis added a zero, making the island too big for Plato's sea, hence it was moved to the Atlantic, and never found) For Israel the 'lp was written as thousand both times and added. Result? 1,100,000 homies. For Judah the scribe figured the second number couldn't be larger than the first, so he only added a zero to the 40 and added them. The result? 470,000 homies. The scribe who copied Samuel added zeros to the first set from each tribe and then totalled them all up together. 800 'lp + 30 'lp + 400 'lp + 70 'lp. To get even numbers he added 30 + 400 + 70 and got 500,000 for Judah. For Israel he gets 800,000. The mistake is assuming both times 'lp refers to thousand.

The real numbers should be as follows:

Israel 80,000 with 30 professional soldiers

Judah 40,000 with 70 professional soldiers

These numbers fit with what is known about military habits and current estimations of demographic tendencies. The other numbers are too big for them to fit inside all of Israel. It is physically impossible that they were that numerous. Problem solved homies.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
dan said:
The actual problem lies in the fact that the original texts here did not have vowels, and the scribes wished they did. 'eleph is the Hebrew word for 1,000. 'aluph means professional soldier. Scribes saw these words: 'lp and 'lp. When arriving at large numbers of soldiers this can get confusing. Let us review. The original texts read this way:

Chronicles:
Israel 80 'lp, 30 'lp Judah 40 'lp, 70 'lp

Samuel:
Israel 80 'lp, 30 'lp Judah 40 'lp, 70 'lp

Identical.

The man who copied Chronicles accidentally copied 800 'lp and 300 'lp (adding zeros has plagued scribes from almost all languages. Plato's texts of Atlantis added a zero, making the island too big for Plato's sea, hence it was moved to the Atlantic, and never found) For Israel the 'lp was written as thousand both times and added. Result? 1,100,000 homies. For Judah the scribe figured the second number couldn't be larger than the first, so he only added a zero to the 40 and added them. The result? 470,000 homies. The scribe who copied Samuel added zeros to the first set from each tribe and then totalled them all up together. 800 'lp + 30 'lp + 400 'lp + 70 'lp. To get even numbers he added 30 + 400 + 70 and got 500,000 for Judah. For Israel he gets 800,000. The mistake is assuming both times 'lp refers to thousand.

The real numbers should be as follows:

Israel 80,000 with 30 professional soldiers

Judah 40,000 with 70 professional soldiers

These numbers fit with what is known about military habits and current estimations of demographic tendencies. The other numbers are too big for them to fit inside all of Israel. It is physically impossible that they were that numerous. Problem solved homies.
Do you mean that the spirit which inspired them dosn't know the different between hebrew and english?

or the english one was only a translation which make it not accurate at all to fully depending in it without going back to check as you did so to the original source?

another question please if you don't mind ...

dan said:
The man who copied Chronicles accidentally copied 800 'lp and 300 'lp (adding zeros has plagued scribes from almost all languages. Plato's texts of Atlantis added a zero, making the island too big for Plato's sea, hence it was moved to the Atlantic, and never found)
Who was that man if you don't mind, his postion, his name and the authority giving to him?

That's because billions of people may depend in his copy so i wish that we know if his job was accurate or not for the most thing people care about whether in thier life or in the hereafter which is thier "faith".
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Radar said:
I meant that I have compared the quotes that are on those websites to what is written in the books (torah, bible, koran) and they match up. Meaning that the contradictions or errors are there.
I guess you are going out of the topic and i advice you to start a new thread about the "so called" contradictions in Quran because we are discussing in here about The Bible "ONLY" so we may reach to a specific fair point but if you started going out of the topic so we will not reach anywhere.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The actual problem lies in the fact that the original texts here did not have vowels, and the scribes wished they did. 'eleph is the Hebrew word for 1,000. 'aluph means professional soldier. Scribes saw these words: 'lp and 'lp. When arriving at large numbers of soldiers this can get confusing. Let us review. The original texts read this way:
You'll find such huge numbers all throughout the Bible. But this is neither here-nor-there in relationship to the topic.

Whether you change the order of magnitude, the two passages still offer two different numbers for the same report. Joab only reported one number (at best) and so they cannot both be right.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
Do you mean that the spirit which inspired them dosn't know the different between hebrew and english?

or the english one was only a translation which make it not accurate at all to fully depending in it without going back to check as you did so to the original source?

another question please if you don't mind ...

Who was that man if you don't mind, his postion, his name and the authority giving to him?

That's because billions of people may depend in his copy so i wish that we know if his job was accurate or not for the most thing people care about whether in thier life or in the hereafter which is thier "faith".
Well, I don't know this man intimately, but this happened, irrespective of what you wish or feel about the Bible. The Spirit inspired the men who originally penned the scriptures, but the Hebrews have been in and out of several different eras of apostasy. They have fallen away from the truth numerous times, and the scriptures have taken a bruise or two along the way. If you could offer a more researched and rational explanation than mine I would invite you to do so, but you cannot. My explanation cannot be disproven or even doubted if you claim to adhere to the tenets of reason. The only doubts come from those who put their blind faith in the ridiculous idea that the Bible is absolutely perfect, a claim the Bible itself never makes, nor do any of its original possessors.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
You'll find such huge numbers all throughout the Bible. But this is neither here-nor-there in relationship to the topic.

Whether you change the order of magnitude, the two passages still offer two different numbers for the same report. Joab only reported one number (at best) and so they cannot both be right.
Yeah, that's what I just explained. Read the whole post before you retort.
 
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