Epicurus' riddle

[serp777]

It seems like no religious person in the Abrahamic faiths takes Epicurus' riddle seriously:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

The most common objection to this is that God is testing us and so he wants to stop evil and he can do it, but its apart of a greater plan where everything will be set right at the end during the final judgment.

There are so many problems with this. First of all the idea that this is a test is insane. The tests range in difficulty and duration for each individual where some are extremely easy and others are impossibly difficult or are affected by things like mental illnesses. Also what's even the point of this test/plan? God already knows what will happen and he knows the moral content of each person, and yet he needs to test anyways? This is malevolence by any sensible definition. Also, since God knew what was going to happen before we were created, then his plan is predetermined and thus the test is rigged. Its a game of entrapment where the crimes and sins we commit have to happen in order to fit God's plan. This means that the subtle way God designed us and designed the world determines our actions, and so in conclusion, if this was a plan and God is omnipotent and omniscient, then basically he designing certain people to go to hell and others to

We also hear that disbelief results in a judgment too--our gullibility and ability to believe something based on extremely limited evidence determines the outcome. its ridiculous especially since God designed us with doubt and skepticism in the first place and he allowed for a number of false religious to lead us to the wrong direction. On top of that ignorant peasants like doubting Thomas received evidence and yet 21st century scientists have to take it on faith? This connects back to the unreasonable and unfair test. if a test is going to be any good at all it needs to be the same for all people. Nothing about this criticism is logical and sensible at all. You're still left with malevolence or he just doesn't care about the pettiness of human sin.

 

[Valjean]

This sort of critical analysis is unsettling. People don't like being unsettled.

 

[Terese]

I'm not Christian, but the Lord's true nature is unknowable. I do agree that this type of thinking you described should be discussed.

 

[wizanda]

It seems like no religious person in the Abrahamic faiths takes Epicurus' riddle seriously:

The problem isn't them taking Epicurus seriously; they'd have to take their own texts seriously first..... Which on a closer examination, makes the question easier to answer....

Basically the Bible is saying we're near Hell, that 'God is in Heaven, here is his footstool'.... i.e We're near the Basement/Pit.

[GALLERY=media, 7191][/GALLERY]

So based on the evidence we see around us, we're possibly in some form of prison doing time.

So of course there is evil everywhere, of course the most evil people get the best jobs, and the people in power are all corrupt.... Whereas 'the good die early' (got parole for good behavior); the innocent are exploited, it is what you'd expect of a prison....

Plus, that the corrupt prison wardens are lying to us, so that we stay here; as then they continue to get paid, and can rule over us.

So the problem with the Abrahamic religions, is they've side stepped their religious texts to make themselves into saints, when the authors were saying we're all sinners near Hell.

Plus as for your question of God's lack of interaction, God has sent prophets/visionaries, and people to help us, so we've killed them, and made a religion about how God sends them as sin offerings.

So the test is recognizing how this reality is, then choosing to come out of its wicked ways....

Those who have been given the most in this evil world often fail miserably; those who've had it hard often find The Way.

Nothing about this criticism is logical and sensible at all.

That is due to the way you're looking at the evidence given to us; instead you're taking what a group of people who don't get it state.

If God were to remove evil, which is planned later according to many texts, allot of us won't be in the next reality to come....

The only way to truly test who wants the truth, is to place everything upside down, then see who turns it back the right way (as that is their natural disposition); those who like it upside down will keep it that way, thinking they're following what is right...

So the test is even; just depends which way you look at it.

 

[rusra02]

I do not believe God planned for evil to exist, nor the suffering we experience today. The Bible explains that an evil spirit person induced the first human couple to join him in rebellion against God. (Revelation 12:9) All of mankind's woes can be traced back to that event in Eden. (Romans 5:12) The way God purposes to respond to that rebellion and restore those who accept God's rulership has required the passing of some considerable time. People who live 70 or 80 years may feel impatient for God to end evil, and wonder why he has not done so. The Bible explains this was to allow time for all intelligent creatures see the outcome to those who reject God's rulership, and also time to prove Jehovah's rulership is the only right government for mankind. I believe the time God has allowed to pass has proven to all that human rule apart from God is a disaster. (Jeremiah 10:23) This time has also provided us the opportunity to gain salvation. (2 Peter 3:9) Now, the time for evil being permitted is nearly up. I believe we must use the short time left to find the truth and take our stand with the God of truth, Jehovah.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It seems like no religious person in the Abrahamic faiths takes Epicurus' riddle seriously:

My version:
Either God is powerless or God doesn't care. In either case, what use is He?

 

[Mycroft]

All of mankind's woes can be traced back to that event in Eden.

For which god is to blame. He gave Adam and Eve a command that required the concept of right and wrong, but didn't give them a concept of right and wrong. Either he was setting them up to fail, or he was a complete idiot.

 

[rusra02]

For which god is to blame. He gave Adam and Eve a command that required the concept of right and wrong, but didn't give them a concept of right and wrong. Either he was setting them up to fail, or he was a complete idiot.

Of course Adam knew what was right. God told him and also the punishment for disobedience. Eve also knew God's law. Their theft of that fruit was a calculated act of disobedience to the One who gave them life and every good thing they enjoyed. Satan, who tempted Eve, is guilty of murdering our first parents by inducing them to follow his wicked lies against God. They thus came under Satan's control.

 

[Curious George]

I do not believe God planned for evil to exist, nor the suffering we experience today. The Bible explains that an evil spirit person induced the first human couple to join him in rebellion against God. (Revelation 12:9) All of mankind's woes can be traced back to that event in Eden. (Romans 5:12) The way God purposes to respond to that rebellion and restore those who accept God's rulership has required the passing of some considerable time. People who live 70 or 80 years may feel impatient for God to end evil, and wonder why he has not done so. The Bible explains this was to allow time for all intelligent creatures see the outcome to those who reject God's rulership, and also time to prove Jehovah's rulership is the only right government for mankind. I believe the time God has allowed to pass has proven to all that human rule apart from God is a disaster. (Jeremiah 10:23) This time has also provided us the opportunity to gain salvation. (2 Peter 3:9) Now, the time for evil being permitted is nearly up. I believe we must use the short time left to find the truth and take our stand with the God of truth, Jehovah.

So, your response is that god is not omniscient?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It seems like no religious person in the Abrahamic faiths takes Epicurus' riddle seriously: ...

Wow! Not one person out of billions over the last 2.3 millennia!

That is easily one of the most sweeping, stupid and arrogant statements I've seen in some time.

Start here (or, if you prefer, here) and feel free come back when you can demonstrate that you take the subject seriously.​

 

[Mycroft]

Of course Adam knew what was right. God told him and also the punishment for disobedience. Eve also knew God's law. Their theft of that fruit was a calculated act of disobedience to the One who gave them life and every good thing they enjoyed. Satan, who tempted Eve, is guilty of murdering our first parents by inducing them to follow his wicked lies against God. They thus came under Satan's control.

Whatever way you wish to slice the cake, eating the fruit was the right thing to do. And the serpent was inevitably the hero of Genesis.

 

[Tumah]

I take it seriously. I just feel that the basis is flawed, in that there is no objective evil that G-d. There is only perceptions of evil. Hence there is nothing for G-d to prevent. Only things for people to change their perception of.

 

[columbus]

Of course Adam knew what was right. God told him and also the punishment for disobedience. Eve also knew God's law.

This is one of the standard beliefs that is too irrational to accept. It is clearly the fiction of primitive people.
According to the story, A&E had been living with Paradise their entire existence. Nothing had ever died, they'd never been disappointed, they'd never suffered so much as a hangnail. They ccouldn't possibly have understood what suffering, disobedience, or death even meant. People can not possibly understand huge concepts that are that foreign to any experience that they have ever had. We are just to limited intellectually.
It would be like leaving a loaded pistol in a room with a toddler, telling them not to touch it, then blaming them for shooting their own leg off.

This is the sort of irrational belief that makes it impossible for me to believe that the ancient authors knew any more about God than I do, probably less.
Tom

 

[rusra02]

So, your response is that god is not omniscient?

God has the ability to foretell the future, but he can choose if and when he exercises that ability. A person who is a great singer does not need to sing all the time, but controls that ability. I believe the same is true regarding God's ability to foreknow the future. Thus, he gives us the right to choose our course, and does not predestine the choices we make nor their outcome.

 

[rusra02]

Whatever way you wish to slice the cake, eating the fruit was the right thing to do. And the serpent was inevitably the hero of Genesis.

I believe the outcome shows otherwise. Adam and Eve are long since dead. Their descendants have been suffering due to their wrongdoing. And the spirit who deceived them is under sentence of death. Mankind's rebellion has resulted in the world situation we are in today. I don't see an upside to their rebellion.

 

[rusra02]

This is one of the standard beliefs that is too irrational to accept. It is clearly the fiction of primitive people.
According to the story, A&E had been living with Paradise their entire existence. Nothing had ever died, they'd never been disappointed, they'd never suffered so much as a hangnail. They ccouldn't possibly have understood what suffering, disobedience, or death even meant. People can not possibly understand huge concepts that are that foreign to any experience that they have ever had. We are just to limited intellectually.
It would be like leaving a loaded pistol in a room with a toddler, telling them not to touch it, then blaming them for shooting their own leg off.

This is the sort of irrational belief that makes it impossible for me to believe that the ancient authors knew any more about God than I do, probably less.
Tom

Adam and Eve were endowed with the ability to think and reason. They were acquainted with death, because the animals God created died after their natural lifespan. They could see an animal's lifeless body and discern it's condition. It is unthinkable for God to fail to educate his children about so fundamental event as death, IMO.

 

[serp777]

Wow! Not one person out of billions over the last 2.3 millennia!

That is easily one of the most sweeping, stupid and arrogant statements I've seen in some time.

Start here (or, if you prefer, here) and feel free come back when you can demonstrate that you take the subject seriously.​

Calm down. Your post is such a huge over the top reaction/ extreme exaggeration. I didn't say everyone throughout all time thinks this. I said it seems like. As in its just an expression to say a lot of people think that way. Ever heard of an expression before? Should I explain an extremely basic concept because clearly you don't understand it? I never claimed to have met all people and the people I have met don't take the riddle seriously, so based on that it seems like they don't take it seriously. Saying it seems like doesn't mean that I think all people do. Learn to English. You're being very stupid right now in conclusion; Feel free to come back when you're not so incredibly butthurt and self righteous.

 

[serp777]

The problem isn't them taking Epicurus seriously; they'd have to take their own texts seriously first..... Which on a closer examination, makes the question easier to answer....

Basically the Bible is saying we're near Hell, that 'God is in Heaven, here is his footstool'.... i.e We're near the Basement/Pit.

[GALLERY=media, 7191][/GALLERY]

So based on the evidence we see around us, we're possibly in some form of prison doing time.

So of course there is evil everywhere, of course the most evil people get the best jobs, and the people in power are all corrupt.... Whereas 'the good die early' (got parole for good behavior); the innocent are exploited, it is what you'd expect of a prison....

Plus, that the corrupt prison wardens are lying to us, so that we stay here; as then they continue to get paid, and can rule over us.

So the problem with the Abrahamic religions, is they've side stepped their religious texts to make themselves into saints, when the authors were saying we're all sinners near Hell.

Plus as for your question of God's lack of interaction, God has sent prophets/visionaries, and people to help us, so we've killed them, and made a religion about how God sends them as sin offerings.

So the test is recognizing how this reality is, then choosing to come out of its wicked ways....

Those who have been given the most in this evil world often fail miserably; those who've had it hard often find The Way.

That is due to the way you're looking at the evidence given to us; instead you're taking what a group of people who don't get it state.

If God were to remove evil, which is planned later according to many texts, allot of us won't be in the next reality to come....

The only way to truly test who wants the truth, is to place everything upside down, then see who turns it back the right way (as that is their natural disposition); those who like it upside down will keep it that way, thinking they're following what is right...

So the test is even; just depends which way you look at it.

Basically the Bible is saying we're near Hell, that 'God is in Heaven, here is his footstool'.... i.e We're near the Basement/Pit.

Hell is quite ambiguous in the bible and not well defined. Furthermore this statement doesn't refute anything i've said. The basic question is why God would do this an allow such evil to take place for no apparent reason. Then i've described how absurd the whole test idea is etc etc.

So based on the evidence we see around us, we're possibly in some form of prison doing time.

That beggs the question of why we're in prison to begin with. According to evolution and biology adam and even don't exist so we're being sent to prison for the crimes committed by the first two humans who never existed. We didn't exist before we were born so God created us to be punished and suffer. That fits the criteria of malevolence. In addition, many children are brought into this prison just so they can die from Leukemia and suffer a brief but agonizing existence. This isn't a prison--its Guantanamo Bay and many people have to deal with the equivlent of water boarding every day. God knew what was going to happen to so he made people so that they could be tortured and suffer. How is that not malevolence? The better answer is to say God doesn't care about petty, worthless human beings. he is above such concerns. Makes a lot more sense.

So of course there is evil everywhere, of course the most evil people get the best jobs, and the people in power are all corrupt.... Whereas 'the good die early' (got parole for good behavior); the innocent are exploited, it is what you'd expect of a prison..

SO murdering Christians is actually a good thing because its a get out of jail free card. People who believe in a personal God, by this logic, should be looking to get themselves and their families killed by nearly any means. This still also goes back to the whole malevolence thing mentioned before.

Plus, that the corrupt prison wardens are lying to us, so that we stay here; as then they continue to get paid, and can rule over us

God is the boss of these prison lords, created them in the first place, designed them to be evil, and pays them for their deeds, but then later gets pissed at them for following his plan. Its so absurd I can't believe anyone can believe it.

Plus as for your question of God's lack of interaction, God has sent prophets/visionaries, and people to help us, so we've killed them, and made a religion about how God sends them as sin offerings.

No no no. God has sent many ambiguous prophets, many of which seem extremely questionable and ironically only came to Earth during the bronze age to superstitious peasants who didn't even know the earth orbitted the sun. China had the most population at the time and didn't get any visionaries. Also why do superstitious peasants get prophets, visionaries, and revelations, but 21st century scientists have to take things on faith? Even doubting thomas got evidence. We don't get evidence but they do? What an insane double standard.

So the test is recognizing how this reality is, then choosing to come out of its wicked ways....

Those who have been given the most in this evil world often fail miserably; those who've had it hard often find The Way.

You're not really addressing any of my critcisms. I just said earlier that a test is only logic and sensible and fair when its the same for everyone. Someone who gets to live a life of luxury and doesn't happen to believe in the babblings of a self proclaimed prophet 2000 years agodoesn't deserve to burn in hell for all eternity. Also you're probably going to hell by that logic since having a computer, the internet, and presumably the comforts of life in the 21st century makes you have more wealth and an easier life than kings in the middle ages. basically you're going to hell and children in Africa who suffer go to heaven. Why the hell does suffering determine going to heaven or hell? Its complete masochism and trolling.

Plus God designed that person to have that life and knew it would happen. its ultimate entrapment like I said earlier. This person was designed to go to hell. Hell also makes God malevolent too since infinite punishment is infinitely unjust. Everything you've said suggests incompetence, entrapment, and malevolence.

If God were to remove evil, which is planned later according to many texts, allot of us won't be in the next reality to come....

He's God. he can do whatever he wants. The plan is completely incompetent and serves no purpose since he already knows what will happen. he already knows the moral content of each person like how jesus knew what his disciples would do. Our lives, if there is a plan, are determined. We don't have free will and so God designs us to go to hell.

So the test is even; just depends which way you look at it

The test is completely, 100% unfair, and is arbitrary depending on the person, relies on god's predetermined plan of entrapment, and God already knows the outcome of the test making the test completely futile.

 

[sojourner]

It seems like no religious person in the Abrahamic faiths takes Epicurus' riddle seriously:



The most common objection to this is that God is testing us and so he wants to stop evil and he can do it, but its apart of a greater plan where everything will be set right at the end during the final judgment.

There are so many problems with this. First of all the idea that this is a test is insane. The tests range in difficulty and duration for each individual where some are extremely easy and others are impossibly difficult or are affected by things like mental illnesses. Also what's even the point of this test/plan? God already knows what will happen and he knows the moral content of each person, and yet he needs to test anyways? This is malevolence by any sensible definition. Also, since God knew what was going to happen before we were created, then his plan is predetermined and thus the test is rigged. Its a game of entrapment where the crimes and sins we commit have to happen in order to fit God's plan. This means that the subtle way God designed us and designed the world determines our actions, and so in conclusion, if this was a plan and God is omnipotent and omniscient, then basically he designing certain people to go to hell and others to

We also hear that disbelief results in a judgment too--our gullibility and ability to believe something based on extremely limited evidence determines the outcome. its ridiculous especially since God designed us with doubt and skepticism in the first place and he allowed for a number of false religious to lead us to the wrong direction. On top of that ignorant peasants like doubting Thomas received evidence and yet 21st century scientists have to take it on faith? This connects back to the unreasonable and unfair test. if a test is going to be any good at all it needs to be the same for all people. Nothing about this criticism is logical and sensible at all. You're still left with malevolence or he just doesn't care about the pettiness of human sin.

There's nothing to take seriously. It presupposes that we get to decide and have any authority as to what constitutes "evil." "Evil" is subjective and dependent upon very circumstantial factors.

 

[serp777]

I do not believe God planned for evil to exist, nor the suffering we experience today. The Bible explains that an evil spirit person induced the first human couple to join him in rebellion against God. (Revelation 12:9) All of mankind's woes can be traced back to that event in Eden. (Romans 5:12) The way God purposes to respond to that rebellion and restore those who accept God's rulership has required the passing of some considerable time. People who live 70 or 80 years may feel impatient for God to end evil, and wonder why he has not done so. The Bible explains this was to allow time for all intelligent creatures see the outcome to those who reject God's rulership, and also time to prove Jehovah's rulership is the only right government for mankind. I believe the time God has allowed to pass has proven to all that human rule apart from God is a disaster. (Jeremiah 10:23) This time has also provided us the opportunity to gain salvation. (2 Peter 3:9) Now, the time for evil being permitted is nearly up. I believe we must use the short time left to find the truth and take our stand with the God of truth, Jehovah.

There was a never a first human couple. there were always at least 1000 humans in order to preserve genetic diversity. Otherwise you're saying humanity originated entirely from incest which makes no sense. genetics would clearly indicate that we emerged from just two people due all the problems that result from invest.