Enough To Make Fair-Minded Christians Sick To Their Stomachs

[Oliver Twist]

All Virgins dump the ignorant. Don't bother abort them. I'll give you a Child to raise for free without a change and no charge. I will also support you and the Child. I'm an openhearted man. Not much to boast over. But honest and polite.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The Bible predicted May 15, 1948 for the restoration of Israel. Do you have a single statement from any person in the world that the UN was moved by that prophecy to select that date? Are you unaware that WWII precipitated the founding of modern Israel?

Are you unaware that AFTER 1948, when atheists began mocking certain Bible prophecies, scholars went and saw the 1948 date there, eliminating the possibility of human agency in fulfillment?

So, I looked it up, and you've got it just ever so slightly wrong:

Creation of Israel, 1948. On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.

Now I want to know... does The Bible mention "May" (or some other-language equivalent), does it mention "15" (or, more appropriately, "14") and does it mention "1948?" My point being - you still haven't provided me supporting text from The Bible - even though that is all I have been calling for in my last few replies. I believe I know why that is... and I am hoping that you answering about the above numbers will tell me whether I am correct in that belief or not.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If the Bible orders Israel to be scattered and persecuted for 2,500 years, then restored to the land, then to fight and win against overwhelming odds multiple times, while skeptics like you hate them and deny their right to exist--than a prophecy has been fulfilled.

I beg your pardon? When did I ever say that?
Don't you dare try to put words like that in my mouth.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Bible predicted May 15, 1948 for the restoration of Israel. Do you have a single statement from any person in the world that the UN was moved by that prophecy to select that date? Are you unaware that WWII precipitated the founding of modern Israel?

Are you unaware that AFTER 1948, when atheists began mocking certain Bible prophecies, scholars went and saw the 1948 date there, eliminating the possibility of human agency in fulfillment?

That doesn't eliminate the self-fulfilling aspect of the "prophecy" at all. It actually adds to it.

You've just admitted that coming up with that date was an exercise in post-diction, as so many things so often are with these "prophecies." In other words, somebody went through a bunch of mental gymnastics to make the math work out, after the fact.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Human beings worked hard to PREVENT Israel from becoming a nation. Since all these are prophecies, saying the ones I'm bolding are self-fulfilling is worthy of hate speech and being banned from RF in my humble opinion:

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

So I just clarified what I'm talking about, and you didn't bother reading it.

And for the nine hundredth time, I'll have to ask you what is anti-Semitic about pointing out that human beings actively worked to create the nation of Israel.
I have never claimed anywhere that anybody tried to be persecuted on purpose.
Try reading my last post again.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So, I looked it up, and you've got it just ever so slightly wrong:
Now I want to know... does The Bible mention "May" (or some other-language equivalent), does it mention "15" (or, more appropriately, "14") and does it mention "1948?" My point being - you still haven't provided me supporting text from The Bible - even though that is all I have been calling for in my last few replies. I believe I know why that is... and I am hoping that you answering about the above numbers will tell me whether I am correct in that belief or not.

12:01 AM, Jewish day begins at sundown.

Here's some Bible text for you:

It's very simple, actually, and illuminating. Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:


“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6


That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.


Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:


606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon


536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel


...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!


Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."


They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!


What about coincidence? There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I beg your pardon? When did I ever say that?
Don't you dare try to put words like that in my mouth.

Words like what?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That doesn't eliminate the self-fulfilling aspect of the "prophecy" at all. It actually adds to it.

You've just admitted that coming up with that date was an exercise in post-diction, as so many things so often are with these "prophecies." In other words, somebody went through a bunch of mental gymnastics to make the math work out, after the fact.

It's not one prophecy, it has do with Jews dying worldwide, you are a horrible anti-Semite. Please stop!!

 

[BilliardsBall]

So I just clarified what I'm talking about, and you didn't bother reading it.

And for the nine hundredth time, I'll have to ask you what is anti-Semitic about pointing out that human beings actively worked to create the nation of Israel.
I have never claimed anywhere that anybody tried to be persecuted on purpose.
Try reading my last post again.

Nothing is wrong with that. There's something horribly wrong about claiming a self-fulfilled prophecy when people were ignorant of the prophecy prior to the event!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

12:01 AM, Jewish day begins at sundown.

Here's some Bible text for you:

It's very simple, actually, and illuminating. Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:


“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6


That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.


Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:


606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon


536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel


...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!


Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."


They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!


What about coincidence? There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.

Wow... right to the day, huh? Amazing. Oh wait... what exact date are we talking about as the "beginning" of this punishment, or time being served by the Israelites? When did "Ezekiel" make his pronouncement of the punishment? Because none of this really works out without that starting date being right, does it?

Also... another huge flaw in this. "If you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." And do you know what number you started with as the total punishment? 430 years. Not 360. Oops. 430 multiplied by 7 is a lot more than 360 multiplied by 7, isn't it? See... what I see here is a little trick. You just start pushing out the numbers, then you use the "Aha!" moment of the 7 times punishment values, hoping that you've already snared the person you're talking to, and they don't notice that you're using updated figures already. Figures that suit your agenda more perfectly.

Not to mention that I am quite positive that all of these numbers and figures being used are absolutely approximations. Approximations that allow you to shave off a bit here, or add a bit there in order to get you to your desired result. You would need absolute starting and ending dates for each event that were reasonable, or started/ended with some specifically prominent or important marking of the time. Like a landmark - something remarkable about that date/day that presents clear meaning as the beginning (or end) of something gripping these people in their punishment. I highly doubt you have this, and so your use of approximation allows you all kinds of leeway to get you to where you're trying to go.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wow... right to the day, huh? Amazing. Oh wait... what exact date are we talking about as the "beginning" of this punishment, or time being served by the Israelites? When did "Ezekiel" make his pronouncement of the punishment? Because none of this really works out without that starting date being right, does it?

Also... another huge flaw in this. "If you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." And do you know what number you started with as the total punishment? 430 years. Not 360. Oops. 430 multiplied by 7 is a lot more than 360 multiplied by 7, isn't it? See... what I see here is a little trick. You just start pushing out the numbers, then you use the "Aha!" moment of the 7 times punishment values, hoping that you've already snared the person you're talking to, and they don't notice that you're using updated figures already. Figures that suit your agenda more perfectly.

Not to mention that I am quite positive that all of these numbers and figures being used are absolutely approximations. Approximations that allow you to shave off a bit here, or add a bit there in order to get you to your desired result. You would need absolute starting and ending dates for each event that were reasonable, or started/ended with some specifically prominent or important marking of the time. Like a landmark - something remarkable about that date/day that presents clear meaning as the beginning (or end) of something gripping these people in their punishment. I highly doubt you have this, and so your use of approximation allows you all kinds of leeway to get you to where you're trying to go.

These aren't my figures--a number of Bible scholars have noted the prophecies.

70 years was served during captivity in Babylon. Those 70 years were to the day, the exact same day in the biblical 360-day lunar calendar. 430-70=360.

The thought process was:

Atheists: 70 years served. Restoration should have been 360 360-day years after the Babylon captivity ended. Epic fail.

Christians: Wow, I guess the prophecy is broken. Wait a sec--7 times punishment for sin, 7 times 360, what is that in Gregorian. Holy smokes! May 1948?! PRAISE JESUS!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

These aren't my figures--a number of Bible scholars have noted the prophecies.

70 years was served during captivity in Babylon. Those 70 years were to the day, the exact same day in the biblical 360-day lunar calendar. 430-70=360.

The thought process was:

Atheists: 70 years served. Restoration should have been 360 360-day years after the Babylon captivity ended. Epic fail.

Christians: Wow, I guess the prophecy is broken. Wait a sec--7 times punishment for sin, 7 times 360, what is that in Gregorian. Holy smokes! May 1948?! PRAISE JESUS!

Which sounds like apologetics at their best (the best they can muster anyway) to me. The "atheists" said "not compelling", so the Christians went back to their numbers and jiggered them some more, found some justifications, and (again, I insist these are absolutely estimates - are dates really used in The Bible? If so, what are these dates?) ultimately pushed the results back into the "prophecy fulfilled" zone. You've basically just described this very process with your little paraphrasing above.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Words like what?

The ones in your post that I bolded in #283:

"If the Bible orders Israel to be scattered and persecuted for 2,500 years, then restored to the land, then to fight and win against overwhelming odds multiple times, while skeptics like you hate them and deny their right to exist--than a prophecy has been fulfilled."

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's not one prophecy, it has do with Jews dying worldwide, you are a horrible anti-Semite. Please stop!!

You think I'm an anti-Semite because I pointed out that human beings created the nation of Israel.

Okay, dude. Whatever you say.

Nothing is wrong with that. There's something horribly wrong about claiming a self-fulfilled prophecy when people were ignorant of the prophecy prior to the event!

Ah, okay so I'm not an anti-semite?
Make up your mind.

Or maybe re-think your bizarre position.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which sounds like apologetics at their best (the best they can muster anyway) to me. The "atheists" said "not compelling", so the Christians went back to their numbers and jiggered them some more, found some justifications, and (again, I insist these are absolutely estimates - are dates really used in The Bible? If so, what are these dates?) ultimately pushed the results back into the "prophecy fulfilled" zone. You've basically just described this very process with your little paraphrasing above.

Are dates really used in the Bible? The prophecies and dates given are to precise days in the Hebrew festival calendar. Dates are also alluded to like "in the X year of Y's reign over Babylon", etc.

1) The 430 and 70 prophecies are given for Israel's sin.

2) Atheists noted that following the 70 in Babylon for Israel's sin, the Jews should have had a Jewish-controlled Holy Land after only 360 years, and that the diaspora went far longer.

3) The Christian could do nothing, really, before someone noticed that in another passage it says because of Israel's sin the punishment will be multiplied times 7.

4) Someone plugged in 7 multiplied by 360 and arrived at May 1948 and said WHOA! WHOA! WHOA WHOA!

I'd settle for one "Whoa!" from you. Know this, atheists have only said this to me:

1) Let's question the archaeology verifying the original dates and move the prophecy around, like to '45 or '51, invalidating it

2) Whoa is right--they got super-lucky there!

3) The Jews could have made Israel Jewish earlier, but self-fulfilled the prophecy (ridiculous on its face)

4) Even if the prophecy is right, it's all a magnificent coincidence, and I need more evidence that the Bible predicts the future, showing God is real

5) "You're just massaging together the two prophecies, you know, the only two about the length of the diaspora, the one that indicates the 430/360 and the one that multiples it by 7, which is kind of vague"

Do you have a 6) for me or not? I'm VERY open to a 6) stronger than the very weak 5 given above by your colleagues.

I didn't know these prophecies before I trusted Jesus for salvation, but there are others, if you're intrigued.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Are dates really used in the Bible? The prophecies and dates given are to precise days in the Hebrew festival calendar. Dates are also alluded to like "in the X year of Y's reign over Babylon", etc.

1) The 430 and 70 prophecies are given for Israel's sin.

2) Atheists noted that following the 70 in Babylon for Israel's sin, the Jews should have had a Jewish-controlled Holy Land after only 360 years, and that the diaspora went far longer.

3) The Christian could do nothing, really, before someone noticed that in another passage it says because of Israel's sin the punishment will be multiplied times 7.

4) Someone plugged in 7 multiplied by 360 and arrived at May 1948 and said WHOA! WHOA! WHOA WHOA!

I'd settle for one "Whoa!" from you. Know this, atheists have only said this to me:

1) Let's question the archaeology verifying the original dates and move the prophecy around, like to '45 or '51, invalidating it

2) Whoa is right--they got super-lucky there!

3) The Jews could have made Israel Jewish earlier, but self-fulfilled the prophecy (ridiculous on its face)

4) Even if the prophecy is right, it's all a magnificent coincidence, and I need more evidence that the Bible predicts the future, showing God is real

5) "You're just massaging together the two prophecies, you know, the only two about the length of the diaspora, the one that indicates the 430/360 and the one that multiples it by 7, which is kind of vague"

Do you have a 6) for me or not? I'm VERY open to a 6) stronger than the very weak 5 given above by your colleagues.

I didn't know these prophecies before I trusted Jesus for salvation, but there are others, if you're intrigued.

Still no direct quotes from The Bible containing these dates. You just seem to be consistently stalling on that point. It is no wonder to me why that is.

Also, number 5 in your list above is what I believe I already brought to your attention. You're multiplying 360 by 7, and not 430 by 7. Why is that? Do you have any excuses for that little bit of number play?

 

[BilliardsBall]

The ones in your post that I bolded in #283:

"If the Bible orders Israel to be scattered and persecuted for 2,500 years, then restored to the land, then to fight and win against overwhelming odds multiple times, while skeptics like you hate them and deny their right to exist--than a prophecy has been fulfilled."

"Skeptics like you" doesn't mean you hate them--I apologize for the inference.

"Fellow skeptics" tend to be anti-Zionist, even we Jews can be anti-Zionist. Born agains are usually very pro Israel.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You think I'm an anti-Semite because I pointed out that human beings created the nation of Israel.

Okay, dude. Whatever you say.


Ah, okay so I'm not an anti-semite?
Make up your mind.

Or maybe re-think your bizarre position.

I agree. You're not anti-Semitic for saying Israel was made by people.

It would be so, however, to deny the many attendant prophecies as self-fulfilled. It's not "Israel will be Jewish," it's "Israel will be Jewish after Jews are scattered everywhere, persecuted everywhere, hunted and hated..." and to say that would be self-fulfilled is bizarre at best.

You didn't say such, but you must admit, THOSE prophecies were ALSO obviously fulfilled, less obviously, apparently, not self-fulfilled!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Still no direct quotes from The Bible containing these dates. You just seem to be consistently stalling on that point. It is no wonder to me why that is.

Also, number 5 in your list above is what I believe I already brought to your attention. You're multiplying 360 by 7, and not 430 by 7. Why is that? Do you have any excuses for that little bit of number play?

They've never been provided to me either. I've had this same discussion several times at this point.

 

[SkepticThinker]

"Skeptics like you" doesn't mean you hate them--I apologize for the inference.

"Fellow skeptics" tend to be anti-Zionist, even we Jews can be anti-Zionist. Born agains are usually very pro Israel.

Thanks for understanding.

Thank you for the apology and clarification.

I think every living person has a right to exist.