Emergence of Bahai'ism

[duvduv]

What exactly was the historical context for the emergence of Bahai'ism from within the Shi'a sect of islam to the extent where it is considered non-Islamic and heretical to Islam according to both Sunni and Shi'a? Does it share ideas from pre-Islamic mystical Ali veneration or syncretism through contact with Hinduism?

 

[shunyadragon]

The Baha'i Faith is not a syncretic religion.

One the other hand I can describe Judaism, Christianity and Islam as syncretic religions, but I do not believe they are fundamentally syncretic, though I believe they are corrupted by syncretism particularly by Mythology and paganism.

 

[danieldemol]

What exactly was the historical context for the emergence of Bahai'ism from within the Shi'a sect of islam to the extent where it is considered non-Islamic and heretical to Islam according to both Sunni and Shi'a? Does it share ideas from pre-Islamic mystical Ali veneration or syncretism through contact with Hinduism?

It is strange to call Ali veneration pre-Islamic since Ali himself was not pre-Islamic.

Ali is considered an Imam in the Baha’i Faith.

For a short history of the Baha’i Faith you could read the Wikipedia article on the Baha’i Faith History of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

If you are after the longer history I would recommend “the revelation of Baha’u’llah” by Adib Taherzadeh STUDY THE FAITH - Revelation of Baha'u'llah

Kind regards

 

[duvduv]

How do you know about Ali? He is not mentioned in the Quran. And the Bahai idea of incarnations of God is simply the Hindu avatar.

 

[shunyadragon]

How do you know about Ali? He is not mentioned in the Quran. And the Bahai idea of incarnations of God is simply the Hindu avatar.

Does being mention in the Quran convincing to you who does not believe in the Quran.

How do you know for certainty about Adam and Eve, Abraham and Moses????

Moses another Hindu avatar?

 

[duvduv]

IF Bahais believe that a human being is an incarnation of God, including Ali ibn Taleb, then that is like Hinduism that believes that Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu. Same thing. But in addition to that, Islam is based on the said revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, and yet certain sects from Lebanon to Persia began to venerate Ali, who is not even mentioned in the Quran, that he is even greater than Muhammad himself. The Shi'a have a strong dogma of the "Imam" who existed since Adam. This is a different religion that probably pre-existed Abbasid Islam in the monotheistic friendly Arab and Persian environment. Ali was grafted onto Islam but was most clearly venerated under the earlier sect of Imamism.

 

[Trailblazer]

What exactly was the historical context for the emergence of Bahai'ism from within the Shi'a sect of islam to the extent where it is considered non-Islamic and heretical to Islam according to both Sunni and Shi'a? Does it share ideas from pre-Islamic mystical Ali veneration or syncretism through contact with Hinduism?

I do not know the answers to all those questions but below is a video that explains the history of the Baha’i Faith in a nutshell. It is only about 11 minutes long and moves pretty fast but it is worth viewing to get an overall view of the history.

 

[danieldemol]

How do you know about Ali? He is not mentioned in the Quran. And the Bahai idea of incarnations of God is simply the Hindu avatar.

You appear to have the Baha’i faith conflated with Hinduism, in the Baha’i faith the attributes of God are reflected in the perfect mirror of the Messenger, but God does not descend to dwell in the mirror, this is different to Hinduism where God is the Messenger (avatar).

Most Hindus familiar with the Baha’i concept of Manifestation of God can tell you it is different to the Hindu concept of Incarnation of God

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What exactly was the historical context for the emergence of Bahai'ism from within the Shi'a sect of islam to the extent where it is considered non-Islamic and heretical to Islam according to both Sunni and Shi'a? Does it share ideas from pre-Islamic mystical Ali veneration or syncretism through contact with Hinduism?

We could explore Prophecy as the Historical Context? The muslims do not believe there is to be any other Messages after Muhammad, whereas this is a very strange stance considering both the Sunni and Shi'a are awaiting the fulfilment of a promise.

All the Faiths in the Abrahamic line share the same history, Baha'u'llah now shows this connection is across all Faiths.

Peace be with you.

 

[danieldemol]

IF Bahais believe that a human being is an incarnation of God, including Ali ibn Taleb

No, according to my understanding Baha'is don't believe Ali is an Incarnation of God

...and yet certain sects from Lebanon to Persia began to venerate Ali, who is not even mentioned in the Quran, that he is even greater than Muhammad himself.

Baha'is consider Muhammad to be greater than Ali.

 

[Vinayaka]

And the Bahai idea of incarnations of God is simply the Hindu avatar.

Quite the jump there, clearly showing how poorly you understand Hinduism.

 

[Dawnofhope]

IF Bahais believe that a human being is an incarnation of God, including Ali ibn Taleb, then that is like Hinduism that believes that Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu. Same thing. But in addition to that, Islam is based on the said revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, and yet certain sects from Lebanon to Persia began to venerate Ali, who is not even mentioned in the Quran, that he is even greater than Muhammad himself. The Shi'a have a strong dogma of the "Imam" who existed since Adam. This is a different religion that probably pre-existed Abbasid Islam in the monotheistic friendly Arab and Persian environment. Ali was grafted onto Islam but was most clearly venerated under the earlier sect of Imamism.

In my humble experience it usually helps to do some research about Faiths you know little about, before rushing in and sounding like an authority.

 

[duvduv]

In my humble experience it usually helps to do some research about Faiths you know little about, before rushing in and sounding like an authority.

In my humble opinion it doesn't pay to conclude something about someone unless you know what it is that the other person knows or doesn't know. I know that Ali is not mentioned in the Quran yet he is venerated by the Alawites, Druze, etc. more than Muhammad himself.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In my humble opinion it doesn't pay to conclude something about someone unless you know what it is that the other person knows or doesn't know. I know that Ali is not mentioned in the Quran yet he is venerated by the Alawites, Druze, etc. more than Muhammad himself.

Hello,
According Islamic Traditions, Ali is mentioned in the Quran in the form of allusion in this way:
"And those who misbelieve say, 'Thou art not sent!' Say, 'God is witness enough between me and you; and so is he who has the knowledge of the Book!'"
13:43

 

[LuisDantas]

Considering what I know of the Shia reverence towards the Al-Bayt and what I know of the Bahai Faith, I would assume that the Bahai Faith has a very similar stance towards Ali, his wife and his descendants.

To the best of my understanding, that they are not literally divine, but that they may well be favored by God and perhaps even supernaturally wise.

I assume the exact consequences and limits of that blessing towards the Al-Bayt to be a matter of some dispute even among the Shia. Frankly, how could that not be the case?

 

[LuisDantas]

I know that Ali is not mentioned in the Quran yet he is venerated by the Alawites, Druze, etc. more than Muhammad himself.

If that is true, then it must follow that they do not consider themselves Muslims. The Qur'an does not leave a lot of room for claims that put Ali over Muhammad.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my humble opinion it doesn't pay to conclude something about someone unless you know what it is that the other person knows or doesn't know. I know that Ali is not mentioned in the Quran yet he is venerated by the Alawites, Druze, etc. more than Muhammad himself.

Fair enough.

The Shi'ites (the second largest sect of Islam) see Ali as the first Imam and rightful successor of Muhammad. Not that the Baha'is have any interest in reconciling Sunni and Shi'ite but we belief it was Muhammad's wish to have His son-in-law Ali be his successor.

The Baha'is see Muhammad as greater than any of the Imams and do 'not put Ali over Muhammad'.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fair enough.

The Shi'ites (the second largest sect of Islam) see Ali as the first Imam and rightful successor of Muhammad. Not that the Baha'is have any interest in reconciling Sunni and Shi'ite but we belief it was Muhammad's wish to have His son-in-law Ali be his successor.

The Baha'is see Muhammad as greater than any of the Imams and do 'not put Ali over Muhammad'.

For Baha'i to emerge from Islam, the Two witnesses from Revelation clothed in sackcloth became an essential understanding for me.

I slept well

Peace be with you

 

[Dawnofhope]

For Baha'i to emerge from Islam, the Two witnesses from Revelation clothed in sackcloth became an essential understanding for me.

I slept well

Peace be with you

Good to hear you have emerged refreshed!

I suspect most Jews wouldn't see the book of revelation let alone any NT book as being authoritative.

That's why I have asked this question of 'both' Jews and Christians in regards Muhammad.

To what extent did Muhammad meet the Messianic Requirements of Judaism and Christianity?

 

[shunyadragon]

I do not know the answers to all those questions but below is a video that explains the history of the Baha’i Faith in a nutshell. It is only about 11 minutes long and moves pretty fast but it is worth viewing to get an overall view of the history.

This video contains numerous inaccuracies concerning the Baha'i, numerous to count, and terrible pronunciation.