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Elohim= The Trinity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ForeverFaithful, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. ForeverFaithful

    ForeverFaithful Son Worshiper

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    Already here's what I don't understand, From Genesis 1:1 a word used to refer to God is Elohim, which is plural,

    clearly the Jews didn't believe Elohim meant there was more then one God, but when then did they use a plural noun?

    Now regardless of whether of not you believe in the Trinity, does a Triune God ( 1 God Three persons) give at least one explanation of why Elohim was used, is it not feasible that Christian Monotheism (A single God of many persons) may fit well into the OT, and does not contradict the Biblical version of monotheism.
     
  2. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Actually, for a great portion, they were monolatrous. As in, they worshipped one god, but also recognized many more. Before that, in their infancy, they were probably polytheistic.

    More so, Elohim can, and often does, mean simply God. It does not need to be used in the plural form.
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No. The elohoist author had no concept of the Trinity. He referred to a host of deities. (Remember, the early Canaanites were henotheistic, not monotheistic).

    The Jews are monotheistic, but the writings of Genesis predate the Jews. The elohim spoken of in Genesis were Canaanite and Sumerian gods.
     
  4. ForeverFaithful

    ForeverFaithful Son Worshiper

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    This is nice liberally scholarly stuff, but many Jews reject it, I don't really buy into the multiple authors of Genesis either
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Well...
    you wondered why; I gave you an answer from a scholastically-solid base. I can't help it if you're not in that particular camp...

    But it certainly makes a whole lot more sense than saying that the authors of Genesis were talking about the Trinity.
     
  6. ForeverFaithful

    ForeverFaithful Son Worshiper

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    I didn't mean to come off as rude,

    however I guess I was unclear, I meant to address Jews who think the Torah and the Trinity are incompatible, especially those who believe Moses revealed the whole Torah
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I can only answer as I understand, and that, again, is to say that the Jews use the plural because that's the way it was written, and the writers were henotheistic. I have no idea what Jews would say who think that Moses wrote the pentateuch.
     
  8. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Most Jews, at least from what I know, no longer think Moses composed the entire Torah. They also would not subscribe to the idea of the Trinity. What sojourner said would be far more supported that the idea of the Trinity.
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    If you're waiting for an answer you like, why not simply write one up yourself?
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    L'Chaim! ;)
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So what's your considered opinion of my take? I'm interested to hear a Jewish perspective. I'm strictly a product of Christian seminary, so I don't know if Jewish scholarship agrees with the JEPD theory or not...
     
  12. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    ancient hebrews were polytheistic, and only henotheistic fopr a very short period
     
  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    its only plural sometimes,more often then not it has to do with El


    its a fact ancient hebrews worshipped El , Yahweh, and Baal and Asherah. they were a family of gods.


    the trinity has nothing at all to do with Elohim, El, El Shaddai, or El Elyon
     
  14. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Have you not heard of the Majestic Plural? When it's used with a Singular verb, it's a term of Majesty that few modern languages retain. Also, it can be used as in indefinite, like in Exodus 7:1 "I have made you a god to Pharoah" (though many translations say "I have made you God to Pharoah, which makes little to no sense).

    The word "Elohim" can also in fact mean "Angel" as well as "Angels" (angels are called gods). Thus, in Genesis 1:1 it is The G-d (articulated Elohim with a singular verb always means the highest of the gods). Those who disagree will have to explain at what point the angels were created such as the Cherubim of the garden.



    To those who say the ISraelites were Henotheist, they are completely right. That is why in Psalm 136:2 you will see that THE God is called "god of the gods". In Deuteronomy 32:8, the Septuagint says "sons of G-d" instead of "Sons of Israel", implying that the Pre-masoretic view was that every nation on Earth had its own "god" (angel) while the Israelites gets the head authority as their "god".

    Another common problem is the total misunderstanding of what "god" actually means. It means "power".

    Proverbs 3:27

    &#1496;&#1465;&#1445;&#1493;&#1489; &#1502;&#1460;&#1489;&#1456;&#1468;&#1506;&#1464;&#1500;&#1464;&#1425;&#1497;&#1493; &#1489;&#1460;&#1468;&#1492;&#1456;&#1497;&#1465;&#1448;&#1493;&#1514; &#1500;&#1456;&#1488;&#1461;&#1430;&#1500; [&#1497;&#1464;&#1491;&#1462;&#1497;&#1498;&#1464; &#1499;] (&#1497;&#1464;&#1491;&#1456;&#1498;&#1464;&#1443; &#1511;) &#1500;&#1463;&#1506;&#1458;&#1513;&#1465;&#1469;&#1474;&#1493;&#1514;&#1475;

     
    #14 Shermana, Mar 29, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2012
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The "Royal We" theory has been discounted by the best scholars for years.
     
  16. ForeverFaithful

    ForeverFaithful Son Worshiper

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    Cause I'm not Jewish
     
  17. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I personally like the idea anyway. However, like you said, it is discounted. I believe they discount it because there is no other attestation to it in the Ancient Near East?
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    If I understand what you're saying, I think you're correct.
     
  19. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Oh it has? Please, by all means, feel free to back your claim. I'd like to see a single non-Trinitarian scholar debunk the "Royal we", clearly there is a singular verb after the Elohim. Surely you should have no problem linking to a single scholarly article that mentions that it's been debunked.

    Jayhawker, I actually would like to know if you think this claim by Sojourner has truth in it.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Not gonna waste my time. You wouldn't accept those scholars as "legit" (even though they are legit). If you did accept them, you wouldn't have posted as you did here.
     
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