Elohim is Plural but is 3, and Echad is also plural but 3. Is it?

[firedragon]

I would like to consult a Jew or two on this matter because this is a very common Christian claim.

I am no Jew, and I have no expertise in Hebrew yet I do know that most Jews if not all have a heavy take on the Hebrew language and the Tanakh as a whole. So if there are any Jews who could contribute, I will be truly grateful.

This thread is to address a particular claim of many Christian apologists where they claim Elohim being a plural which I believe as I have been told by Jews is a plural of majesty (Pluralis Majestatis) or a plural of determination depending on the context of the sentence like "we" does not mean its a plural in numbers because God is still one. Sorry I am not spelling out Gods name Jews believe in for personal reasons but try and just engage with the argument if you could.

Christian apologists also try and reconcile this with the Shema and the Lord being one or echad is also meaning a plural.

In all honesty this to very many people is pretty straightforward where a plural in a word like Elohim is not plural in numbers where in the instance of Moses being sent as an Elohim, Moses cant be several people but one. I think even bringing this up for Jewish scholars is an insult to their basic linguistics but this is an outcome.

So I would like to open this discussion and I hope, even though Jewish contributors are not huge in number some could contribute in this discussion. And I will be grateful.

1. Elohim is plural, and means 3
2. Echad is also plural, and still means 3

I think, in all honesty, this is a ridiculous equation.

Peace.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Christian apologists also try and reconcile this with the Shema and the Lord being one or echad is also meaning a plural.

Some might, but which ones? You could be talking about 2% of Christians or 30% or 60% or 0.5%. Which group makes this argument and where did you get it from?

1. Elohim is plural, and means 3
2. Echad is also plural, and still means 3

I think, in all honesty, this is a ridiculous equation.

I've personally never heard this taught.

 

[firedragon]

Some might, but which ones? You could be talking about 2% of Christians or 30% or 60% or 0.5%. Which group makes this argument and where did you get it from?


I've personally never heard this taught.

Maybe you have not heard any of this. Good for you really.

 

[Harel13]

1. Elohim is plural, and means 3
2. Echad is also plural, and still means 3

I think, in all honesty, this is a ridiculous equation.

I agree it's ridiculous. And taking into consideration Tanach only (no later texts), why stop at three? And on the other hand, why start at three? For a plurality, one only needs a minimum of two.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Maybe you have not heard any of this. Good for you really.

Just so you know, Christians do not generally claim this. It sounds like a rumor you heard from a non-Christian not from a Christian.

 

[sun rise]

I am no Jew, and I have no expertise in Hebrew yet I do know that most Jews if not all have a heavy take on the Hebrew language and the Tanakh as a whole.

You have conflated Jews with practitioners of the religion of Judaism. A serious percentage of Jews are secular or SBNR even in Israel..

And how do you know that most if not all have a "heavy take" on the Hebrew language? What is the source of that assertion that world-wide most if not all Jews know Hebrew? And even in Israel most will know modern Hebrew. The Hebrew of the Torah is a bit different.

 

[John D. Brey]

1. Elohim is plural, and means 3
2. Echad is also plural, and still means 3

I think, in all honesty, this is a ridiculous equation.

"Elohim" אלהם is constructed from a word that means God אלוה but where the singular suffix heh ה, is replaced with a plural suffix yod-mem-sofi ים. -----Technically, "elohim" is plural for God. Interpreting it otherwise, like as a "plural of majesty," is an interpretive maneuver not necessarily based wholly on grammar. Grammatically, "elohim" is a plural.

"Echad" אחד, is interpreted "one," but seems to mean "unity." It could be interpreted, say along with "elohim," to mean that although there are multiple names of God, and multiple manifestations of God, nevertheless they're all "unified" אחד into one hypostasis.

In fact, the Shema says: Hear O Israel: The Lord יהוה our God אלהי is one אחד Lord יהוה. The Shema can be read to be implying that the word "echad" אחד is being used to make sure Israel knows that their Lord יהוה, is a singular ruler over all other gods and all other things. His power and authority unify, and are set above, all that's called god, all that has power and authority, so that Israel's Lord is being called the unity of all power and authority that exists outside and inside Yahweh.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

What is the source of that assertion that world-wide most if not all Jews know Hebrew? And even in Israel most will know modern Hebrew. The Hebrew of the Torah is a bit different.

Indeed, the symbolic dimension of Hebrew, as it appears in the sacred texts, disappears for the benefit of a purely utilitarian use of language. . . modern Hebrew has emptied out the ancient words of their symbolic and religious signification in order to reduce them to mere indices of material reality.



Stéphane Mosès, Professor Emeritus at Hebrew University Jerusalem, quoted in Derrida's Acts of Religion.​

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN the messenger forgets the message? Our sages expressed their theology through a myth of genealogy. Today, the myth is no longer grasped; all that survives of theological genealogy is the now-failing taboo against intermarriage, lacking all reasoned explanation. The unearned grace of the ancestors bringing blessing to their offspring ---zekhut avot, the merit of the patriarchs and matriarchs, a deeply intangible conception of the continuity of generations of faith ---gives way to a quite material and ordinary conviction that the group must endure despite it all. But spite is not a reason. No wonder then that the God whom the sages met in the Torah falls silent to heirs who know that they are special but have forgotten why.

Rabbi Jacob Neusner, Children of the Flesh, Children of the Promise: A Rabbi Talks with Paul, p. 99.​

John

 

[rosends]

Elohim is a word which can be used as a singular or as a plural, depending on the context. Just check the verb. If the verb or adjective that goes along with it is in the singular (as it usually is) then the noun is in the singular. When God says he will make Moses into "an elohim" it is used in the singular. When God speaks and the verb is in the singular (as it always is when God speaks) the word is a singular noun. When God forbids worshipping "other" elohim, and the "other" formulation is a plural one, then the word "elohim" is used in the plural.

As for "echad" the word means "one." Can the word "one" indicate a collection of parts making a singular whole? Sure -- in the real world, very little is just "one" until you get into subatomic particles. But the word means "one" and is a singular grammatical form.

 

[Rival]

I'm in agreement with what Harel and Rosends have written above, but to play devil's advocate I might suggest this: A Christian begins with the belief in the Trinity a priori, so reading these words as plural and a particular number, 'three', would be natural and conform to what they already believe. I know only few Christians make such arguments, but if one already believes in a triune God then it would make sense to go, 'This word is plural, our God is triune, therefore its this, it fits.'

 

[Harel13]

I'm in agreement with what Harel and Rosends have written above, but to play devil's advocate I might suggest this: A Christian begins with the belief in the Trinity a priori, so reading these words as plural and a particular number, 'three', would be natural and conform to what they already believe. I know only few Christians make such arguments, but if one already believes in a triune God then it would make sense to go, 'This word is plural, our God is triune, therefore its this, it fits.'

Ah, stepping into the debate of whether pre-Jesus Jews were aware of a triune deity.

 

[Rival]

Ah, stepping into the debate of whether pre-Jesus Jews were aware of a triune deity.

Not necessarily, if one, as many Christians do I've noticed, hold to the Documentary Hypothesis. I guess that would complicate things. Either that or give the answer I've seen some Christian sources give, "The prophets weren't always understanding of what they were saying/writing." It's absurd to me but I've read this argument in places.

 

[Brickjectivity]

peace from me to all and no pressure

I think that a trinitarian would not find the passage useful unless they had no background on where the trinity came from and thought they must accept contradictions. What I am saying is that Jesus does not have to be present in Genesis 1,2,3 for there to be a Trinity; and to claim so seems a contrivance to argue something which need not be supported.

Part of the idea of the trinity is apotheosis, and I have posted a video of an Eastern Orthodox priest saying so in a lesson explaining the trinity. Inquiring into the background and origins of the idea of the trinity removes speculation about whether the Trinity has an accounting problem. If anyone needs me to produce the video again I can do so.

 

[dybmh]

Here is a list from The Torah where Elohim is determined to be plural. Note they all connote negative / prohibited activities

Gen 3:5 - The serpent is tempting Eve:

כִּי יֹדֵעַ אֱלֹהִים כִּי בְּיוֹם אֲכָלְכֶם מִמֶּנּוּ וְנִפְקְחוּ עֵֽינֵיכֶם וִֽהְיִיתֶם כֵּֽאלֹהִים יֹֽדְעֵי טוֹב וָרָֽע׃
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
​

Exodus 18:11 - elohim describes the other gods, not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

עַתָּה יָדַעְתִּי כִּֽי־גָדוֹל יְהֹוָה מִכָּל־הָֽאֱלֹהִים כִּי בַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר זָדוּ עֲלֵיהֶֽם׃
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods; for in the thing where they dealt proudly he was above them.
​

Exodus 20:3 - the first of the 10 commandments, the prohibition against worship of other gods

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עַל־פָּנָֽי׃
You shall have no other gods before me.
​

Exodus 23:13 - Elohim plural refers to "other gods", negative valence

וּבְכֹל אֲשֶׁר־אָמַרְתִּי אֲלֵיכֶם תִּשָּׁמֵרוּ וְשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים לֹא תַזְכִּירוּ לֹא יִשָּׁמַע עַל־פִּֽיךָ׃
And be mindful of all the things that I have said to you; and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard from your mouth.
​

Exodus 32:1 - The beginning of the Golden Calf episode, the assembly is asking Aaron to construct idols.

וַיַּרְא הָעָם כִּֽי־בֹשֵׁשׁ מֹשֶׁה לָרֶדֶת מִן־הָהָר וַיִּקָּהֵל הָעָם עַֽל־אַֽהֲרֹן וַיֹּֽאמְרוּ אֵלָיו קוּם עֲשֵׂה־לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר יֵֽלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ כִּי־זֶה מֹשֶׁה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶֽעֱלָנוּ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם לֹא יָדַעְנוּ מֶה־הָיָה לֽוֹ׃
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, Arise, make us gods, which shall go before us; and as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what became of him.
​

Exodus 32:23 - Also part of the Golden Calf episode; Aaron is explaining that the assembly wanted idols.

וַיֹּאמְרוּ לִי עֲשֵׂה־לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר יֵֽלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ כִּי־זֶה מֹשֶׁה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶֽעֱלָנוּ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם לֹא יָדַעְנוּ מֶה־הָיָה לֽוֹ׃
For they said to me, Make us gods, which shall go before us; and as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what became of him.​

Deut 4:28 - Moses is talking about Elohim, plural, as idols

וַֽעֲבַדְתֶּם־שָׁם אֱלֹהִים מַֽעֲשֵׂה יְדֵי אָדָם עֵץ וָאֶבֶן אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יִרְאוּן וְלֹא יִשְׁמְעוּן וְלֹא יֹֽאכְלוּן וְלֹא יְרִיחֻֽן׃
And there you shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
​

Deut 5:7 - a restatement of the first of the 10 commandments, Elohim, plural, is used for other gods, not the God whom should be worshipped.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עַל־פָּנָֽי׃
You shall have no other gods before me.
​

Deut 6:14 - Elohim, plural, refers to other gods of the surrounding nations

לֹא תֵֽלְכוּן אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים מֵֽאֱלֹהֵי הָֽעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶֽם׃
You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people who are round about you;​

Deut 7:4 - Elohim plural refers to other gods which should not be followed

כִּֽי־יָסִיר אֶת־בִּנְךָ מֵֽאַֽחֲרַי וְעָֽבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְחָרָה אַף־יְהֹוָה בָּכֶם וְהִשְׁמִֽידְךָ מַהֵֽר׃
For they will turn away your son from following me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy you speedily.
​

Deut 8:19 - Elohim plural refers to other gods, following them results in perishing

וְהָיָה אִם־שָׁכֹחַ תִּשְׁכַּח אֶת־יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וְהָֽלַכְתָּ אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבַדְתָּם וְהִשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתָ לָהֶם הַֽעִדֹתִי בָכֶם הַיּוֹם כִּי אָבֹד תֹּֽאבֵדֽוּן׃
And it shall be, if you do forget the Lord your God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I warn you solemnly this day that you shall surely perish.
​

Deut 10:17 - a distinction is made between the singular God of Moses and the other plural gods.

כִּי יְהֹוָה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם הוּא אֱלֹהֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים וַֽאֲדֹנֵי הָֽאֲדֹנִים הָאֵל הַגָּדֹל הַגִּבֹּר וְהַנּוֹרָא אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יִשָּׂא פָנִים וְלֹא יִקַּח שֹֽׁחַד׃
For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God,mighty and awesome, which favors no person, nor takes bribes;
​

Deut 11:16 - Elohim plural refers to prohibited worship derived from self-delusion

הִשָּֽׁמְרוּ לָכֶם פֶּן־יִפְתֶּה לְבַבְכֶם וְסַרְתֶּם וַֽעֲבַדְתֶּם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְהִשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתֶם לָהֶֽם׃
Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and you turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
​

Deut 11:28 - serving Elohim, plural, results in a curse

וְהַקְּלָלָה אִם־לֹא תִשְׁמְעוּ אֶל־מִצְוֺת יְהֹוָה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם וְסַרְתֶּם מִן־הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר אָֽנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם הַיּוֹם לָלֶכֶת אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתֶּֽם׃
And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which you have not known.
​

Deut 13:3 - following Elohim, plural, is a sign of a false prophet

וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתָּם וְנָֽעָבְדֵֽם׃
And the sign or the wonder, comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them;
​

Deut 13:7 - Elohim, plural, are gods not known to the Israelite nation

כִּי יְסִֽיתְךָ אָחִיךָ בֶן־אִמֶּךָ אֽוֹ־בִנְךָ אֽוֹ־בִתְּךָ אוֹ אֵשֶׁת חֵיקֶךָ אוֹ רֵֽעֲךָ אֲשֶׁר כְּנַפְשְׁךָ בַּסֵּתֶר לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה וְנַֽעַבְדָה אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶֽיךָ׃
If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, which is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers;
​

Deut 13:14 - wicked people promote Elohim, plural

יָֽצְאוּ אֲנָשִׁים בְּנֵֽי־בְלִיַּעַל מִקִּרְבֶּךָ וַיַּדִּיחוּ אֶת־יֹֽשְׁבֵי עִירָם לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה וְנַֽעַבְדָה אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתֶּֽם׃
Certain men, wicked persons, have gone out from among you, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known;
​

Deut 18:20 - a prophet who promotes Elohim, plural, shall be killed

אַךְ הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר יָזִיד לְדַבֵּר דָּבָר בִּשְׁמִי אֵת אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־צִוִּיתִיו לְדַבֵּר וַֽאֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר בְּשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וּמֵת הַנָּבִיא הַהֽוּא׃
But the prophet, who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
​

Deut 28:14 - following Elohim, plural, is not the correct path

וְלֹא תָסוּר מִכָּל־הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר אָֽנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם הַיּוֹם יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאול לָלֶכֶת אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים לְעָבְדָֽם׃
And you shall not go aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
​

Deut 28:36 - Elohim, plural, refers to idol worship

יוֹלֵךְ יְהֹוָה אֹֽתְךָ וְאֶֽת־מַלְכְּךָ אֲשֶׁר תָּקִים עָלֶיךָ אֶל־גּוֹי אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶיךָ וְעָבַדְתָּ שָּׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עֵץ וָאָֽבֶן׃
The Lord shall bring you, and your king which you shall set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known; and there shall you serve other gods, of wood and stone.​

Deut 28:64 - same as above, Elohim, plural, refers to idol worship

וֶֽהֱפִֽיצְךָ יְהֹוָה בְּכָל־הָעַמִּים מִקְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעַד־קְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעָבַדְתָּ שָּׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶיךָ עֵץ וָאָֽבֶן׃
And the Lord shall scatter you among all people, from one end of the earth to the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, of wood and stone.
​

Deut 30:17 - serving Elohim, plural, is being drawn away

וְאִם־יִפְנֶה לְבָֽבְךָ וְלֹא תִשְׁמָע וְנִדַּחְתָּ וְהִֽשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתָ לֵֽאלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבַדְתָּֽם׃
But if your heart turns away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;​

Deut 31:18 - God turns away from those who follow Elohim, plural

וְאָֽנֹכִי הַסְתֵּר אַסְתִּיר פָּנַי בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא עַל כָּל־הָֽרָעָה אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה כִּי פָנָה אֶל־אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִֽים׃
And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evils which they shall have done, in that they are turned to other gods.
​

Deut 31:20 - Turning to Elohim, plural, is provoking God and breaking the covenant

כִּֽי־אֲבִיאֶנּוּ אֶל־הָֽאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר־נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי לַֽאֲבֹתָיו זָבַת חָלָב וּדְבַשׁ וְאָכַל וְשָׂבַע וְדָשֵׁן וּפָנָה אֶל־אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבָדוּם וְנִאֲצוּנִי וְהֵפֵר אֶת־בְּרִיתִֽי׃
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore to their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and become fat; then will they turn to other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
​

Deut 32:17 - Elohim, plural, are equated to powerless spirits

יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ אֱלֹהִים לֹא יְדָעוּם חֲדָשִׁים מִקָּרֹב בָּאוּ לֹא שְׂעָרוּם אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶֽם׃
They sacrificed to powerless spirits, not to God; to gods whom they knew not; to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
​

 

[dybmh]

Christian apologists also try and reconcile this with the Shema and the Lord being one or echad is also meaning a plural.

Just FYI, the wording in the Shema is not "Elohim". It's "Eloheinu", our God.

 

[firedragon]

You have conflated Jews with practitioners of the religion of Judaism. A serious percentage of Jews are secular or SBNR even in Israel..

I only need the language. Not the faith.

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Just FYI, the wording in the Shema is not "Elohim". It's "Eloheinu", our God.

Elohim, was not a reference to the Shema. Its general.

 

[firedragon]

I agree it's ridiculous. And taking into consideration Tanach only (no later texts), why stop at three? And on the other hand, why start at three? For a plurality, one only needs a minimum of two.

I really cant fathom this apologetic. You are right. For a plural one only needs two. Why stop at three? It could be hundred if one insists its definitely a plural of numbers.

 

[firedragon]

Just so you know, Christians do not generally claim this. It sounds like a rumor you heard from a non-Christian not from a Christian.

You can guess. No problem. But I cant understand why a non-christian would make these claims from the OT to justify the Trinity.

Maybe people pretend to be Christian and justify the Trinity for arguments sake going with your theory above.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You can guess. No problem. But I cant understand why a non-christian would make these claims from the OT to justify the Trinity.

I don't doubt you've met someone who makes such claims. I don't know of anyone who does from a pulpit or in a book, and that is why my request for a source is so reasonable.

Maybe people pretend to be Christian and justify the Trinity for arguments sake going with your theory above.

My theory, since you don't produce a source, is that you are the victim of someone telling you that this was one of the main ways people derived the trinity.

I also perceive you are debunking the idea as a kindness and are not making it up. You did hear it and from an apologist of some sort.