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El Paso Texas today active shooter Walmart - 18 reportedly shot- (news video & print article)

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
When guns are outlawed violent people will find a way. The only reason knives are less deadly is because bullets travel faster than a blade. ;)
Would you rather defend yourself against a knife or club of sorts, or a gun?
And bullets make it easier to hurt, easier to puncture vital organs, guns are notorious enablers of impulsive violence, and it's incredibly harder to accidentally kill someone with a knife. It's not just bullets traveling faster, it's their very design and nature.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I can listen to that .............
I do understand that many suicides are heated, and that if a cooling down can happen on the way to the rail line etc then, yes, suicides can be averted.

A very long time ago I trained as a Samaritan, and we knew that if a person could explain in detail how they intended to die, then the explanation in itself was a kind of carrying out the act, and this could often end in a long sigh and 'got it off my chest' kind of feeling for the sometimes, just sometimes, that could lead on to the 'whys' of the caller, and a closer connection.
There have been moments when I've struggled with suicidal ideation. I'm also a gun owner. I'm not saying the fact that my weapons are stored safely, with bolts removed and locked away separately, and ammunition locked away separately again is the only reason I never self inflicted, but it sure as **** didn't hurt.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You have no point.

Actually I made my point clear. 60% of gun deaths are suicide.

About 35 people die every day in the USA from gun accidents, gun manslaughter or gun murders. That's a point.

You are deflecting as you were shown to be in error.

There could be compulsory training

Mandatory training is required up here. I had no problem with training

Criminal checks

Already exists in the US

psycho-evals,

A soft-science which is problematic as it has people endorsing all sorts of crackpot ideas.

home security reqs,

Details please

home safes

A lot of gun owners do this anyways especially with children in the home.

all risks insurance and licences.

I reject insurance as it became a factor in which the poor can not afford it thus have no weapons while the poor are often in the most dangerous areas. You are turning gun ownership in a privilege of wealth

And semi-auto guns could be restricted to about 3 rounds.

Magazines are easy to mod.

You just don't get simple points, preferring to chuck muck at sensible suggestions. But that's just you.

You just made those suggestion but are assuming I reject your suggestions before I even comment. Stop arguing with fiction in your head.

Sadly I don't think that suicides can reduce very much from gun controls, but gun crime might reduce eventually.

Doesn't stop the black-market.

That's a point. Now see if you can answer the points instead of chucking your usual junk comments.

No you were babbling about me calling your idea flawed. You had no counter point so you rambled about some fiction.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes, people have done mass killings without guns. But the numbers were far fewer when it was not so easy. The problems with guns is that they make some crimes too easy.

I hear what you are saying. Guns are efficient tools. If an actor with bad intentions wants to use the tool for massive harm it is a possibility. Other such tools exist as well though. Let us pretend that mass killings will be that much harder to plan or accomplish.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
And your logic is extremely poor. Jenny not getting shot in a drive by does not increase her risk of being killed elsewhere. The drive by is a terroristic tool of gangs. Gangs will still exist but one of their tools will have been taken away from them. You are now only making excuses a sure sign that you know you are in the wrong.
No your reading comprehension is poor. Jenny does not equal Jane. Jane not getting killed did not increase jenny's chance of getting killed. Denying Jenny an efficient tool of self protection did.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Also downloadable and printable guns still leave a lot to desire and that may be the case for quite some time. Currently it takes a rather high end printer to make even a marginally working one and they are not thought to be reliable:
They exist. They fire. We need not worry about whether they are extremely reliable. We need to worry about whether they can be used for crime. The answer is yes they can.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
How pathetic!
I already quoited the suicide stats that you repeated back to me. You just want to lead me away someplace.

You're doing what a Republican did on Brit telly tonite. She just wouldn't address the position with any suggestions, and I'll bet that you won't either.

So how would you address the problem of 35 gun killings (NOT SUICIDES!) per day in the USA?
Give it a try and acknowledge your error. Then we can find out if I will or won't.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I hear what you are saying. Guns are efficient tools. If an actor with bad intentions wants to use the tool for massive harm it is a possibility. Other such tools exist as well though. Let us pretend that mass killings will be that much harder to plan or accomplish.
No pretending needed. I can name you some. When they happened they shocked the U.S. to a car greater extent since they were so rare at that time. Now every idiot and his cousin can pick up a gun with high capacity magazines.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
No pretending needed. I can name you some. When they happened they shocked the U.S. to a far greater extent since they were so rare at that time. Now every idiot and his cousin can pick up a gun with high capacity magazines.
Every idiot has been able to pick up a gun with a high capacity magazine for a long time in the U.S.

I agree that people intending to do harm will use whatever means available to cause that harm. Guns are an efficient and effective tool. If guns are available, some people intending to do harm will use them.

Also, i agree that people intending to protect themselves will use whatever means are available to protect themselves. Guns are an efficient and effective tool. If guns are available, some people intending to protect themselves will use them.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There have been moments when I've struggled with suicidal ideation. I'm also a gun owner. I'm not saying the fact that my weapons are stored safely, with bolts removed and locked away separately, and ammunition locked away separately again is the only reason I never self inflicted, but it sure as **** didn't hurt.
Thank you for that.
That surely helps to show that ease of access could make a difference in instances of despair.

The cost of conflicts................
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Actually I made my point clear. 60% of gun deaths are suicide.

You are deflecting as you were shown to be in error.

Mandatory training is required up here. I had no problem with training

Already exists in the US

A soft-science which is problematic as it has people endorsing all sorts of crackpot ideas.

Details please

A lot of gun owners do this anyways especially with children in the home.

I reject insurance as it became a factor in which the poor can not afford it thus have no weapons while the poor are often in the most dangerous areas. You are turning gun ownership in a privilege of wealth

Magazines are easy to mod.

You just made those suggestion but are assuming I reject your suggestions before I even comment. Stop arguing with fiction in your head.

Doesn't stop the black-market.

No you were babbling about me calling your idea flawed. You had no counter point so you rambled about some fiction.

Here it is!
This is the 'Shad' brainwave which shows that the mass killings in the US will go on, and on, and on, and that you have no ideas whatsoever which could ever help to reduce the 35 gun-killings per day, in the USA.

Oh...... and not one of those average 35 killings per day is a suicide.

And so you've managed to move forward 'not one inch' since Columbine.

Poor people manage to insure their cars and homes, you know, and balancing the wickedly unreasonable distribution of finances amongst western communities is a whole other subject.

Not only can training, courses, tests, CRCs, psycho-evals, compulsory insurance, compulsory home-security, home safes, licensing, assault weapon bans, magazine reduction ...... all deter gun crime, but in the UK we learn of another important point...................

The BBC is reporting to British viewers and listeners that President Trump was speaking out against immigrants when called out something like 'What shall we do?' and when a voice from the crowd called out 'Shoot them!' he is reported to have chuckled. Now President Obama is speaking out about leaders whose words could possibly promote such crimes.

To address that might just make a difference as well. ?? :shrug:
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Give it a try and acknowledge your error. Then we can find out if I will or won't.
Here it is folks!
I mentioned that 30% of gun death figs were suicides and @Shad told me it was 2/3rds.

And since I later actually wrote the 26,000+ figures of suicides in 2017 (66% of 40,000 killings) most members might feel that this was acknowledgement enough. ??

But not you! I think you want to deflect away from all those gun killings which go on and on and so you run a kind of semi-intellectual interference ...... away from the issue?

George. You have not offered a single positive suggestion that I can remember in many years which might reduce gun killings in the USA. OK?

So now what you need to do is trawl back over the years for every sentence which refutes this. Maybe you wanted everybody to go shopping with an assault-rifle in their bag?

But anyway...... let's see if you've got a bright idea in your head from anytime, ever, back in to the distant past...... eh?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sadly he has not brought up what is obviously needed, a more efficient gun control law.
There is a surge of news items about things that he has said that might have enabled all this.
President Obama is speaking out now about leaders that enable crimes, or words to that affect.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Therefore in the U.S. over 20% of kids ages 0-17 take some kind of psychiatric drug but many seem to think mental problems aren't an issue.
When it comes to violence, there isn't one. The issue is when people try to paint mental health as the issue (abusive and traumatic childhoods do seem to be an essential building block, but we don't scream about that one). Or even an issue at all. Of course some with mental illnesses are violent, but they are a very small minority of the group. What IS an issue you insinuating that there is a problem with medication that is leading to violence. It's not happening. "Kids are medicated, and there is a lot of violence, so the medicated kids are turning violent." NO!!! Bugger off and let those who actually study and work with the stuff do their thing without your erroneous and dangerous nonsense clogging people's brain.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Here it is folks!
I mentioned that 30% of gun death figs were suicides and @Shad told me it was 2/3rds.

And since I later actually wrote the 26,000+ figures of suicides in 2017 (66% of 40,000 killings) most members might feel that this was acknowledgement enough. ??

But not you! I think you want to deflect away from all those gun killings which go on and on and so you run a kind of semi-intellectual interference ...... away from the issue?

George. You have not offered a single positive suggestion that I can remember in many years which might reduce gun killings in the USA. OK?

So now what you need to do is trawl back over the years for every sentence which refutes this. Maybe you wanted everybody to go shopping with an assault-rifle in their bag?

But anyway...... let's see if you've got a bright idea in your head from anytime, ever, back in to the distant past...... eh?
There see that wasn't so hard. I would hope that you recognize there is a problem with people citing "facts" not just a little off but far off.

I agree the gun deaths are a problem. I agree that with regard to defense a multi-tier approach is necessary. I also realize that no matter how safe you think you are, stuff happens. Furthermore I recognize that many people feel the need to add guns to their tool box of safety.

This isn't surprising. Police around the world do this, military around the world does this and people, in general, do this. That is because guns ARE effective tools.

When I approach a problem like the U.S. deaths I wonder what is the least intrusive way to address the issue.

Here the issue is that there are many people that wish to do harm. While noting that eliminating one avenue for them to obtain guns to act on this impulse would deter some gun crime, i also note that it would, in effect, disadvantage law abiding citizens by restricting their ability to purchase an effective and efficient means of self defense. As we can see enacting legislation that restricts people is not, on its face the least intrusive method. In fact, in the U.S. it is an avenue that is outside the authority of the legislature.

So, is there another way. Well, yes. We have done a lot of research into criminals and into people in general. And, while not as neat and tidy as "gun control," i imagine we can, nonetheless, make a sizable dent in the homicide rate and the suicide rate without unnecessary restrictions outside the authority of the law.

First, socioeconomic disparity is a major problem in the U.S. this covers issues that range from homelessness and malnutrition to reproductive health and financial planning. Socioeconomic status is related to a wide variety of issues including both violent and non violent crime. Addressing individuals with low socioeconomic status will be cheaper than funding prisons, shelters, and continuing welfare that is and will be necessary to address the rammifications of allowing millions of Americans to subsist without enough.

Second, Bettering education. While it is true that some people do seem to defy the odds. Most are not autodidactic geniuses that will thrive regardless of their environment. Schools now have a variety of policies which essentially foster a school to prison pipeline. Depriving children of learning moments and forcing through the school of hard knocks does little to help combat the levels of violence we see in our communities.

Mental health: while I realize that in general a person with mental health issues is more likely to be the victim of violence than the perpetrator. It is also true that some mental health issues are strongly related to violence. Addressing mental health issues would involve better mental health resources allocated to organizations providing mental health services, earlier diagnosis and treatment of mental health issues, and better coverage of mental health issues including preventive measures(including stress relief). Finally in this category mental health issues are still stigmatized which encourages many suffering from these issues to deny or hide potential problems behavior.

Domestic abuse. Children from homes with domestic abuse are likely to act out more violently as they age. Domestic abuse comes in several forms, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional/ psychological abuse, and neglect. More outreach needs to be done to help parents access resources already available, extend resources already available and parent better.

Court and prison system reforms. From lack of succesful reentry programs to lack of sufficient and effective rehabilitation programs. Our prison system is a mess and our court system isn't much better at addressing what an offender needs. Instead we lock up people and try our best to forget about them.

Violent culture. We glorify violence and in many ways try to remove people from the natural consequences of violence. While I am not going to blame video games, movies, or songs for criminal activities, nor is the will i rest the blame on devisive politics and racial incitement, but the weight of all of this is not without cost. I certainly believe in freedom of expression and would not encourage censorship. However, fostering empathy and discussion regarding the consequences of violence must also be present. Focusing on delivering this should be a priority.


If we address these issues we will see a reduction in both homicides and suicides. What is more, no civil rights need be infringed.
 
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