El Paso Texas today active shooter Walmart - 18 reportedly shot- (news video & print article)

[Jose Fly]

Don't have to.

Yes you do. Otherwise all you've done is make an unsupported assertion that will be summarily dismissed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes you do. Otherwise all you've done is make an unsupported assertion that will be summarily dismissed.

Only by you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Gun control laws will not be the only fix, but it will definitely cure some of the evils. It is pretty hard to pull off a drive by knifing. And mass killing takes much more planning and much more competence to accomplish if one cannot get a thirty round AK-47.

Really? Then all those stories about mass knifings must be fake news.

 

[oldbadger]

We can address my positive suggestions once you acknowledge your error.

How pathetic!
I already quoited the suicide stats that you repeated back to me. You just want to lead me away someplace.

You're doing what a Republican did on Brit telly tonite. She just wouldn't address the position with any suggestions, and I'll bet that you won't either.

So how would you address the problem of 35 gun killings (NOT SUICIDES!) per day in the USA?

 

[oldbadger]

In the mean time, you have destroyed the ability to access good efficient tools of self defense..

What? A military rifle for self defense?
What self defense?

Home security starts with decent windows and doors. Police in the UK find it very hard to enter a standard PVC or compound door with standard multipoint locking. They have had to develop a special lithioum powered (and very noisy) chain saw to defeat them.

Internally glazed DG windows with laminated glass are very hard to defeat.

Just how are these 'home-invaders' going to get you, and why would they bother.......... you don't keep a collection of IWC and Rolex watches, do you?

Bah! Pathetic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes i do believe drive bys will decrease. Plenty of people can plan and accomplish mass killings still, but over all these are a very small amount of the murders.

In the mean time, you have destroyed the ability to access good efficient tools of self defense.

So Jane never gets shot in the drive-by and julie doesn't get killed in the movie theater, but jenny does get killed from an what would have been preventable if she had access to her gun that she was no longer able to keep.

Meanwhile, one can still make guns if they have a little know how or even if they don't one can 3d print them. I know you have said you don't want a complete ban, but without that you will still have drive bys, so what exactly are you discussing?

Guns are not evil. So, I am not sure how gun laws will fix "evils." We can address the homicide rate. Let us better schools, better access to mental health, reduce poverty, support families, reduce domestic violence, address drug problems, and focus on changing our violent culture and that will go much further in changing the homicide rates. The best part is, we won't have to infringe on any rights (excepting individuals who commit crime and even then with due process) pursuing those ends.

Yes, people have done mass killings without guns. But the numbers were far fewer when it was not so easy. The problems with guns is that they make some crimes too easy.

And your logic is extremely poor. Jenny not getting shot in a drive by does not increase her risk of being killed elsewhere. The drive by is a terroristic tool of gangs. Gangs will still exist but one of their tools will have been taken away from them. You are now only making excuses a sure sign that you know you are in the wrong.

Also downloadable and printable guns still leave a lot to desire and that may be the case for quite some time. Currently it takes a rather high end printer to make even a marginally working one and they are not thought to be reliable:

'I wouldn't waste my time': firearms experts dismiss flimsy 3D-printed guns

 

[oldbadger]

Don't think a determined psychopathic criminal cant get access to a firearm because a law forbids it? Dream on.

Well, at the moment it would take a whole lot of trouble to load up, now, would it?

You're talking defeatist ..... real defeatist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What? A military rifle for self defense?
What self defense?

Home security starts with decent windows and doors. Police in the UK find it very hard to enter a standard PVC or compound door with standard multipoint locking. They have had to develop a special lithioum powered (and very noisy) chain saw to defeat them.

Internally glazed DG windows with laminated glass are very hard to defeat.

Just how are these 'home-invaders' going to get you, and why would they bother.......... you don't keep a collection of IWC and Rolex watches, do you?

Bah! Pathetic.

What is worse is that very few legal gun owners would be affected at all with proposed legislation. Yes, you may lose an extended magazine but those are not of much use for self defense either. In fact if one lives in an urban area an extended magazine significantly adds to the danger to others. If one is missing in shot after shot one has to consider where those bullets are going.

 

[oldbadger]

What is worse is that very few legal gun owners would be affected at all with proposed legislation. Yes, you may lose an extended magazine but those are not of much use for self defense either. In fact if one lives in an urban area an extended magazine significantly adds to the danger to others. If one is missing in shot after shot one has to consider where those bullets are going.

Oh Boy! I can just imagine a panicking householder blasting away....... and the innocent victims. A kind of citizen's friendly fire!

On BBC telly just now we were tiold that at a rally in Florida (?) Mr Trump was speaking about illegal immigration and he called out something like 'What are we going to do?' and somebody in the crowd called out 'Shot them!', and we are told that he chuckled.

I cannot post the story up because it was screened in the News.

President Trump is also calling for more action to stop mentally ill people getting guns, but he's also referring to the El Paso killer as a Capital Murderer. Where I live mentally ill people are often classed as 'Beyond reason of the mind' and they often do not get convicted of any criminal offence but committed to a secure hospital under our mental health acts.

I don't expect that the El Paso killer was mentally ill because I expect that he knew exactly what he was doing. So it's back to gun controls imo.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh Boy! I can just imagine a panicking householder blasting away....... and the innocent victims. A kind of citizen's friendly fire!

On BBC telly just now we were tiold that at a rally in Florida (?) Mr Trump was speaking about illegal immigration and he called out something like 'What are we going to do?' and somebody in the crowd called out 'Shot them!', and we are told that he chuckled.

I cannot post the story up because it was screened in the News.

President Trump is also calling for more action to stop mentally ill people getting guns, but he's also referring to the El Paso killer as a Capital Murderer. Where I live mentally ill people are often classed as 'Beyond reason of the mind' and they often do not get convicted of any criminal offence but committed to a secure hospital under our mental health acts.

I don't expect that the El Paso killer was mentally ill because I expect that he knew exactly what he was doing. So it's back to gun controls imo.

Being innocent due to insanity is hard to prove. I do agree that that sort of person is full of the crazy. But he probably cannot use that as a defense. His actions demonstrate that he knew what he was doing was wrong. So even though crazy he was sane enough to be found guilty. One needs to be almost eating the fruit off of the wallpaper crazy to be able to post a not guilty due to insanity plea in the US.

EDIT: And if one does make an insanity plea the burden of proof is shifted. The defendant has to prove that he is schizo.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Don't think a determined psychopathic criminal cant get access to a firearm because a law forbids it? Dream on.

Hardly. If it is too difficult most will give up and go into some other delusions. The fact is that easy access to guns is one of the major causes of these mass shootings.

The harder it is to get a gun the more attention one can draw to oneself in trying to get one. And if one wants a specific gun it becomes even more obvious. I am not the one that is dreaming here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

More knives in a society = more knife deaths.
Yeah yeah, I see the pattern. ;0)

That may be true. But it is harder to kill someone with a knife. Yes, it can still be done, but again, the problem with guns is the ease of using them.

 

[oldbadger]

Being innocent due to insanity is hard to prove. I do agree that that sort of person is full of the crazy. But he probably cannot use that as a defense. His actions demonstrate that he knew what he was doing was wrong. So even though crazy he was sane enough to be found guilty. One needs to be almost eating the fruit off of the wallpaper crazy to be able to post a not guilty due to insanity plea in the US.

EDIT: And if one does make an insanity plea the burden of proof is shifted. The defendant has to prove that he is schizo.

Absolutely. I did mention in my last post that I don't think he's mentally ill, that he knew what he was doing. And so it's back to gun controls, imo.

 

[oldbadger]

Hardly. If it is too difficult most will give up and go into some other delusions. The fact is that easy access to guns is one of the major causes of these mass shootings.

The harder it is to get a gun the more attention one can draw to oneself in trying to get one. And if one wants a specific gun it becomes even more obvious. I am not the one that is dreaming here.

Our Brit officials have caught a bloke trying to smuggle 60 handguns in to Britain in the last 24 hours. It's the biggest haul that's ever been seized. I think the perp is Irish.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Our Brit officials have caught a bloke trying to smuggle 60 handguns in to Britain in the last 24 hours. It's the biggest haul that's ever been seized. I think the perp is Irish.

And 60 handguns is not even a drop in the ocean here. What the extreme gun rights people will not face up to is that the number of mass killings was far smaller when weapons of the sort that have been used lately were not available. Yes, some mass killings still occurred, but it was years between them instead of days.

 

[oldbadger]

And 60 handguns is not even a drop in the ocean here. What the extreme gun rights people will not face up to is that the number of mass killings was far smaller when weapons of the sort that have been used lately were not available. Yes, some mass killings still occurred, but it was years between them instead of days.

We hear that President Trump is now calling for stronger mental health checks in order to reduce gun crime, and he is also condemning racism in the US. Our reporters keep very straight faces. They are very professional.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We hear that President Trump is now calling for stronger mental health checks in order to reduce gun crime, and he is also condemning racism in the US. Our reporters keep very straight faces. They are very professional.

Who know? Maybe, just maybe, Trump can learn. But even if the results are only motivated by politics and his hopes of being reelected I will accept them and even give the man some credit if he comes through.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@oldbadger one thing that I do disagree with you on is the suicide rate. In Australia after their gun buy back program started there was a drop in the suicide rate. And areas where the gun buy back was more rapid the suicide rate dropped faster. I will agree that not having a gun does not guarantee an end to suicide. But already owning a gun makes the act so much easier than if one does not. And since suicide is often an emotional act and emotions can change greatly the ability to do so easily does make it much more likely to happen. One cannot unpull the trigger after the fact.

 

[oldbadger]

Who know? Maybe, just maybe, Trump can learn. But even if the results are only motivated by politics and his hopes of being reelected I will accept them and even give the man some credit if he comes through.

Fair enough.
A change of heart is a good thing.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger one thing that I do disagree with you on is the suicide rate. In Australia after their gun buy back program started there was a drop in the suicide rate. And areas where the gun buy back was more rapid the suicide rate dropped faster. I will agree that not having a gun does not guarantee an end to suicide. But already owning a gun makes the act so much easier than if one does not. And since suicide is often an emotional act and emotions can change greatly the ability to do so easily does make it much more likely to happen. One cannot unpull the trigger after the fact.

I can listen to that .............
I do understand that many suicides are heated, and that if a cooling down can happen on the way to the rail line etc then, yes, suicides can be averted.

A very long time ago I trained as a Samaritan, and we knew that if a person could explain in detail how they intended to die, then the explanation in itself was a kind of carrying out the act, and this could often end in a long sigh and 'got it off my chest' kind of feeling for the sometimes, just sometimes, that could lead on to the 'whys' of the caller, and a closer connection.