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Egypt's President Mursi assumes sweeping powers
- Thread starter England my lionheart
- Start date
Lady B
noob
Dear Fouad, In all due respect I think I have been more than fair to the point of taking great care not to use western assumptions. I have Loved Egypt all my life and have studied its politics, power and progress for many years now, I mean no disrespect to Salifists at all In fact I have great empathy for them as a group, trying to bring Egypt back towards God after Mubarik and Sadat silenced them. I do however have some issues with how they handle their assumed power now and what their goals are for all people not Just Islam. That is not my buisness because it is not my religion. I group them only because they themselves have aligned with Muslim bros in this constitution and the Islamic laws for all. Salifists have never held back their extremism, and speak out even while no one gave them a platform, now they have somewhat of an audience and they do not hold back their distaste for a modern Egypt,however they do not compromise on their beliefs and are not as sneaky and deceitful as ahem.....their Partner group.
I do not disrespect the salifists, I do not agree with their strictness and uncompromising rules for a changing and evolving Egypt, but I am not so westernized to wish religion is separate from politics altogether. If Egypt is consensually Islamic then Islam Can and should be involved in politics, the problem I have is forcing a people to worship their God from a one way or no way position and using God to win a constitution that clearly is unjust to the whole.
I know from reading your posts you and I do not agree in many areas, But trust me to be fair and well studied in this area even If we will not agree, deal? If you know me well enough by my posts, you can surmise I am not against Islam and I have a great respect for it and for your Prophet. I do see it is abused and neglected and people have forgotten the message entirely and seek chairs instead of truth and use Islam to intimidate the people into giving them these chairs.The God of Islam is not an oppressor, Mohammad himself negotiated with God To ease the peoples burdens. I would like to see This happen between the people and the government, that is all. Peace
So far the voting is estimated to be a 56% yes vote with a turnout of just 32% according to an MB spokesman which is much lower than the parliamentary elections and unsurprisingly some people smell a Rat:
Mr. Hafez Abu Seada, the head of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights (EOHR), the coordinator of the Egyptian coalition emphasized that the juridical supervision on the referendum is one of the most important guarantees of fairness. Dozens of complaints against the absence of supervising judges raises doubt about the fairness and transparency of the referendum, especially when the complainers received no response from the High Election Commission, which should have provided these polling stations with the required judges. He called upon the High Election Commission to freeze the referendum in the polling stations that do not have supervising judges. These practices, used to disappoint the Egyptian citizens for a long time, during Mubarak era. Absence of judicial supervision affects fairness and transparency of referendum « The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights
Mr. Hafez Abu Seada, the head of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights (EOHR), the coordinator of the Egyptian coalition emphasized that the juridical supervision on the referendum is one of the most important guarantees of fairness. Dozens of complaints against the absence of supervising judges raises doubt about the fairness and transparency of the referendum, especially when the complainers received no response from the High Election Commission, which should have provided these polling stations with the required judges. He called upon the High Election Commission to freeze the referendum in the polling stations that do not have supervising judges. These practices, used to disappoint the Egyptian citizens for a long time, during Mubarak era. Absence of judicial supervision affects fairness and transparency of referendum « The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Dear Fouad, In all due respect I think I have been more than fair to the point of taking great care not to use western assumptions. I have Loved Egypt all my life and have studied its politics, power and progress for many years now, I mean no disrespect to Salifists at all In fact I have great empathy for them as a group, trying to bring Egypt back towards God after Mubarik and Sadat silenced them. I do however have some issues with how they handle their assumed power now and what their goals are for all people not Just Islam. That is not my buisness because it is not my religion. I group them only because they themselves have aligned with Muslim bros in this constitution and the Islamic laws for all. Salifists have never held back their extremism, and speak out even while no one gave them a platform, now they have somewhat of an audience and they do not hold back their distaste for a modern Egypt,however they do not compromise on their beliefs and are not as sneaky and deceitful as ahem.....their Partner group.
I do not disrespect the salifists, I do not agree with their strictness and uncompromising rules for a changing and evolving Egypt, but I am not so westernized to wish religion is separate from politics altogether. If Egypt is consensually Islamic then Islam Can and should be involved in politics, the problem I have is forcing a people to worship their God from a one way or no way position and using God to win a constitution that clearly is unjust to the whole.
I know from reading your posts you and I do not agree in many areas, But trust me to be fair and well studied in this area even If we will not agree, deal? If you know me well enough by my posts, you can surmise I am not against Islam and I have a great respect for it and for your Prophet. I do see it is abused and neglected and people have forgotten the message entirely and seek chairs instead of truth and use Islam to intimidate the people into giving them these chairs.The God of Islam is not an oppressor, Mohammad himself negotiated with God To ease the peoples burdens. I would like to see This happen between the people and the government, that is all. Peace
Well thanks for the kind post but you forgot to define a Salafist for me
.Can you maybe give me a example on how a Salafi is a different from a Sunni or a Wahhabi?
Because i see these labels all the time but i don't understand why your doing it?
You realize that the Majority does want a certain Sharia law in Egypt according to surveys right?
Could you also give me any references on what is not Islamic what they are purposing?
About the strict part sometimes strict works in a society it can help fighting corruption and bad things. Islam is about ''pureness'', ''devotion to god'' and these kind of things, its not about being ''Western Modern'' or pro secular or simply being part of a evolved society.
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Lady B
noob
Dear Fouad, I had just written a long detailed opinion in response to your questions, However I decided to scrap it all and allow you to have your views without argument. I will however define for you the Salifist movement in Egypt as Islamic puritans who seek to keep 7th century Islam in a 21st century world. I am not saying their intent is wrong, It is unreasonable.I will concede Salifists in Egypt have been known to protect minority religions also some are quite democratic, I am not anti-Salifist as a whole. Some of the extreme issues they have proposed are against women's rights,I Think this is unreasonable and does indeed go against Mohammad's own example. If you like to talk in each issue I find unfair, I will do, but we must be respectful to eachother and not abuse our backgrounds as we see them.Well thanks for the kind post but you forgot to define a Salafist for me
Can you maybe give me a example on how a Salafi is a different from a Sunni or a Wahhabi?
Because i see these labels all the time but i don't understand why your doing it?
You realize that the Majority does want a certain Sharia law in Egypt according to surveys right?
Could you also give me any references on what is not Islamic what they are purposing?
About the strict part sometimes strict works in a society it can help fighting corruption and bad things. Islam is about ''pureness'', ''devotion to god'' and these kind of things, its not about being ''Western Modern'' or pro secular or simply being part of a evolved society.
Yes I was born and raised in a free nation, I have rights that many do not have in your culture or religion, I will not say my way is the only succesful way to live a healthy and productive life,I do not believe that at all. I may stand alone in my country in your eyes, but believe me there are many still here in the USA who would like God to be ingrained in our constitution as well, and I would go further to say when we took God out of our schools, we did our children a grave injustice.
When I speak out against this constitution in Egypt, I am not at all speaking against sharia law, You are right in that it is consensual for the majority to allow this in Egypt. But let us look good at the people of Egypt, let us look good at what Egypt needs to grow and strengthen as a unified nation, what can be done to appease this variance in religion, culture and community?
Egypt fights for freedom from Government, freedom from dictatorship, freedom to pursue prosperity and growth, freedom for women's basic rights of protection, freedom for rights to earn a decent wage, freedom against injustice and corruptness in the positions of authority. These are the important things to Egyptians and when they are in the streets fighting for these rights they find God used against them, why? Why are the Muslim bros and the salifists fighting against them? Why is God even being used to threaten people into subservience? What is it that the protestors are asking that is against God? Why is it that the people cannot negotiate and share in the lawmakers decisions? How is that against God to say no to a constitution that deliberately leaves out real issues?
It is not about Islam dear friend, It is about using Islam to oppress, using God's own name to threaten and enact obedience to men's desires for power. I said I would not go on and on and here I have anyway, I apologize and wait your response.
Well thanks for the kind post but you forgot to define a Salafist for me
Can you maybe give me a example on how a Salafi is a different from a Sunni or a Wahhabi?
Because i see these labels all the time but i don't understand why your doing it?
You realize that the Majority does want a certain Sharia law in Egypt according to surveys right?
Could you also give me any references on what is not Islamic what they are purposing?
About the strict part sometimes strict works in a society it can help fighting corruption and bad things. Islam is about ''pureness'', ''devotion to god'' and these kind of things, its not about being ''Western Modern'' or pro secular or simply being part of a evolved society.
Can you give an example where strictness works in society and is beneficial to all in that society,strictness worked for Hitler Stalin and Ho Chi Min for example,was this strictness beneficial to those societies?.
Lady B
noob
I will regroup my rambling brain stems and try to answer your questions directly....Well thanks for the kind post but you forgot to define a Salafist for me
Can you maybe give me a example on how a Salafi is a different from a Sunni or a Wahhabi?
Because i see these labels all the time but i don't understand why your doing it?
You realize that the Majority does want a certain Sharia law in Egypt according to surveys right?
Could you also give me any references on what is not Islamic what they are purposing?
About the strict part sometimes strict works in a society it can help fighting corruption and bad things. Islam is about ''pureness'', ''devotion to god'' and these kind of things, its not about being ''Western Modern'' or pro secular or simply being part of a evolved society.
By the way, I did not give these labels to these groups,They did.Salifists in Egypt are distinct and separate themselves from the majoral Sunnis population, Why? I am not at all sure except they view they have the true Islam and the majority of Sunnis are to modernized and liberal. I guess you would have to ask them why they separate and form their own group setting themselves above others as the more righteous in God's word.
Wahabee is another entity who deems themselves worthy to suppress any act they view is unGodly on their own authority and with force if necessary,you can find many evidences of this in the media, It does exist, though it is not severe in Egypt as of yet,Thanks be to God. Perhaps original intent is Godly, but causing fear in fellow man, street beatings and forcing a man to submit by sticks seems highly ineffective in spreading a religion of peace as time has shown. Perhaps the wahabee got a bum rap, perhaps it is a bias media that has portrayed such events, be it as it may, the Wahabee sect is feared as a violent force in many middle Eastern cultures and now with article 11 in Egypts proposed constitution, It very well may come to fruition, It at least gives possibilities with the wording.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Each country has some kind of strictness i can say that America are in certain ways very strict and ''worse''. Smoking weed can get you a life-time jail ticket if you are black and i can give you much more examples.
Wouldn't you say that China isn't doing a better job then America?
There is off-course ''Strict'' and ''Strict''.
Back to Lady B:
I don't know any Muslim in the world Shia or Sunni who disagrees following Sharia (God's law) and the Sunnah (Way of the prophet''saws''). We are not a Christian faith that changes ''evolves'' our religion into something simply because people tell us to do so. Your allegations against women-rights is false in Islam woman en man have different rights stop thinking that Islam is secular. I can promise to you that the ''Muslim'' Brotherhood and the other parties are more Pro-''Women'' then you think they simply have a different view on them then Seculars have and what is inline with the Prophet's(saws) teachings. Since you made this claim please give me some examples of the prophet's(saws) time that contradicts with there rules.
There is no such place and certainly not America. You don't know anything about my culture and i don't value your ''freedom'' since it contradicts your own religion and mine.
Ok and who are we? We are not Egyptian voters we are not Egyptian politicians. Egypt should be free to choose what and who they want. They already choose a group as a majority that already said before they took office that they would be more ''Islamic'' and on how they would rule the country.
This blabla is not worth responding on (with all respect).
Its about you not understand the constitution nor giving any example what contradicts Islam.
I have looked at your other message and you still didn't define a Salfi or a Whabbi i hope in your next message you will and show me the difference between a Sunni, Salfi and a Whabbi.
Lady B
noob
your reply to me is highly disrespectful and I will not be responding to you again, I have no desire to discuss valid issues with anyone who assumes allready I have nothing to offer beyond blabla. peace.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
So much for "Interfaith dialogue", eh?
Lady B
noob
Do you see I am wrong? and I should continue in this debate?
No shocks so far:
BBC News - Egypt opposition alleges referendum 'fraud' ,going quite smoothly for the new Dictator.
BBC News - Egypt opposition alleges referendum 'fraud' ,going quite smoothly for the new Dictator.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Well you were the one who preached me about what Egyptians want and then accused Politicians for using "God" to fear other people. Its like i am talking to a Secular who dislikes Theists and is on a mission. Off course you can expect a answer like that since it had nothing to do with what i was asking and you just went on a rampage on how bad the Brotherhood is and how they contradict Islam without giving One example.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
These are not facts but allegations coming from the National Salvation Front party.
Allegations that were inevitable considering the way the referendum was muscled through,betrayal to the uprising number one was Morsi giving himself sweeping powers,number two was a commitee made up of a majority of Islamists,number three was the vote itself and the way it was conducted.
Considering only a third of those eligible actually voted is it really surprising that people smell a Rat,the whole issue stinks of the public wants what the public gets,it also stinks of very poor leadership if your concern was for Egyptians as a whole,for the Brotherhood i guess this isn't such a big issue.
The result of the referendum has only resulted in conflict and mistrust,instead of being the rebirth of Egypt and a greater future for its people it has only resulted in uncertainty,this is reflected in how the world views Egypt both in Humanitarian and financial matters ,this of course could have been averted if there had been a set time for consultaion on the draft,a fair representation of the commitee for the draft and a fair vote,none of which happened so......
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Are you from Egypt because i hear many bold statements from a person who lives on the other side of the world.
OK i do live in Berkshire southern England which is more than a Bus ride from Egypt so what,world politics affects us all and seeing the Egyptian people being hoodwinked into political turmoil by incompetence and corruption in what is a pivotal part of the Middle East is at best very sad and to see it done by the exporters of Palestines sorrows is quite scary.
It could have been so easy,you get a good cross section of Egyptian people to compile the new constitution,it is then reviewed and debated until some consensus is reached and then voted on by the people,if it took a year so what,if the Brotherhood had prevailed in those circumstances there could be no argument,instead the commitee was a majority of conservative Muslims and muscled through by blatant bully tactics resulting in what Egypt has now which IMO is want what you get.
So F0uad,please point out the bold statements that aren't true.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Its the idea that you think you know what Egyptians want and simply forgetting the notion that the majority voted for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Its not only for the reason that they wanted Mubarak out of office but also to become a more Islamic country even head-scarfs were banned from live-television. You can't impose secular laws on Muslims when they don't want it stop trying to preach democracy but when they elect a president you don't like your all against it this is typical American hypocrisy in its finest.
BTW,i'm not American,i wouldn't presume to know what the Egyptian people want,i think though that a low turnout of 30% in such an important vote is suspicious at least, the majority of 30% of Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brotherhood so if it was such a sure thing then surely the new constitution should have gone to consultation and a fair vote.
So the Egyptian people according to you want a more Islamic state and if thats true then a fair referendum followed by a fair election would be the way forward,instead though a new dictator is born who obviously knows whats good for Egypt,just look at the Egyptian currency going down faster than the Titanic,thats because nobody outside Egypt can see a positive outcome to what has become a sham,still the MB is quite well organised look at its contribution to Palestine and dispatching of Presidents
.