1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Egyptians & Supporters of Egypt's Constitution

Discussion in 'Middle Eastern Politics' started by Meow Mix, May 2, 2013.

  1. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Sassypants Kitty

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,006
    Ratings:
    +751
    I'm having a hard time getting concise opinions on this, so I thought I'd make a thread to get some insight into this.

    Why did the finalized constitution only incorporate protections for "the divine religions" or "the heavenly religions" (depending on translation) -- why not for all religions?

    Was this an oversight, or was this a deliberate exclusionary tactic on the legislating and ratifying body to protect the religions they happened to like while failing to protect those they don't like? (If it was an oversight, how could it possibly have been so particularly written then?)

    Do you consider this to be just? I mean, is Egypt interested in justice, equality, and freedom for ALL -- or is it just interested in freedom for the majority population? i.e., are you satisfied with mob rule?
     
    #1 Meow Mix, May 2, 2013
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  2. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    You asked for an opinion. The present ruling body in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood. If you look at the historical record of this group, which has religion at its core beliefs, you can see that they believe that there is only one true religion, Islam. The hierarchy of this group are not ignorant, they knew exactly what they wanted in their so called constitution and it was not religious freedom, equality for all, or freedom as understood in most countries.
     
  3. Reptillian

    Reptillian Hamburgler Extraordinaire

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,631
    Ratings:
    +253
    My question for Egyptians is what happens if the "heavenly religions" become the minority? Do you then have an oligarchy?

    Hopefully it was an oversight, they should have asked the modern day equivalent of Ben Franklin to write their constitution for them.
     
  4. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    Islam only says christians and jews get protection. Athiest, pagans, etc have none.
     
  5. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    Either your use of the English language is poor or you have shown you prejudice against two religions. The "nouns" Jews and Christians are "proper nouns" and have to be capitalized. How would you understand the thought behind someone using a reference to the religion of Islam if they did not capitalize the word? I would suspect that you would be highly indignant and rightful so.
     
  6. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    I think you are reading too much into it. I was in a hurry and typing from a mobile. As for someone typing "muslim" or "Muslim", I wouldn't care. A lot of people post while on the go. And I am guilty of typing "muslim" myself lol
     
  7. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,401
    Ratings:
    +139
    I have a question protecting from what?
     
  8. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Sassypants Kitty

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,006
    Ratings:
    +751
    Assad, so, do you support esmith's hypothesis that "they knew exactly what they wanted in their so called constitution and it was not religious freedom, equality for all, or freedom as understood in most countries." ?

    Why does Egypt even bother trying to ratify anything like a bill of rights if the real goal is to enshrine Islamic theocracy, in your opinion (IF that is the real goal)?

    One last question Assad -- aside from your belief that Islam teaches atheists, pagans, etc. have no legal protections, what is your personal feeling about this: do you personally feel that is just? I'm an atheist, for instance: would you feel okay with me being censored because I'm not one of the protected types if I were an Egyptian? (I know this question gets on a personal level but I'm not going to be offended, I'm just curious as to what your personal take on this is)
     
  9. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Sassypants Kitty

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,006
    Ratings:
    +751
    From the English translation here (The 2012 Constitution of Egypt, Translated by Nivien Saleh, with Index | Nivien Saleh):


    "Article 43
    The freedom of belief is inviolable.

    The state guarantees the right to practice one’s religious rites and establish places of worship for the heavenly religions. Details are specified by law."

    So, according to Egypt's Constitution, only Jews, Christians, and Muslims have protection for the rights to practice their religious rites and establish places of worship for themselves.

    Why can't Baha'i, Zoroastrians, and whoever else also have protected civil liberties for their religious rites or to establish places of worship for themselves?
     
  10. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    I don't know, so I can not comment.

    I don't know why o what they want. But the way I see it is there are two types of political Islamist. One is the type who will paticipate in democracy in order to influence it to get closest to being Islamic. While the second type is one who doesn't and fights to bring khalifa. Examples would be possibly MB as compared to say IRIS or Jabhat Al-Nusra.

    This is very personal, as my mother can be classed as a pagan. But this is what Allah(swt) decreed. They, unike the Jews and Christians (look, I capitalized!:eek: ), they are ineligable for protection
     
  11. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Sassypants Kitty

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,006
    Ratings:
    +751
    Regardless of what you're *commanded* to do, do you personally think it's unfair for people not to be able to have their own opinions and beliefs without being oppressed for it?
     
  12. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    Does it need to be fair? It is not obligated to protect them, and their opinions are best to themselves in such country. In an Islamic country, it is not okay.

    TO put it in perspective;

    Do you think it is okay for a muslim to preach jihad in America?
     
  13. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    It appears that Assad has used the time honored political means of answering your question by not answering your question. However, if you read between the lines, as you do with most politicians answers, his answer would be he has no problem with you being ostracized or for that matter persecuted for your personal beliefs or non-beliefs.
     
  14. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    I did answer. It is what Allah decreed. Therefore I can not speak against it and must accept it.
     
  15. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    Let me answer that by the following: From What is Jihad a explanation by Huda
    Also from the same reference
    Therefor in accordance with the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights there would be no reason for a Muslim to preach Jihad against the United States. It would also appear the beliefs or non-beliefs, according to the Qur'an, must be protected (highlighted above). Therefor would your statement in Post #4
    Is incorrect? Of course I might be interpreting what I referenced to be incorrect. Is it?
     
  16. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    Well for one, in regards to Jihad against America, you did qoute " War is waged only to defend the religious community against oppression and persecution," Which is what they do say. Ever lisiton to Imam Anwar Al Awlaki or Sheikh Usama bin Laden, may Allah have mercy on them both.

    I am not saying I personally agree or support them

    But that is what they cite. The oppression and persecution of Muslims in the Middle East by the US forces.
     
  17. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    In an islamic government, specifically a khalifate, only Jews and Chrisians can pay jizya tax.

    Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.[ At-Tawbah:29]
     
  18. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    So, are you attempting to say that here in the United States that those that practice the religion of Islam are persecuted. If so, please identify time, place, and the persecution that was perpetrated. As far as your question, the answer is no. I did not listen or would have listened to Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, Che Guevara, Idi Amin or any others that advocated the killing of innocents to further their ideology. It appears by your statement that you may not personally agree with them but you do not renounce what they advocate.
     
  19. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,814
    Ratings:
    +157
    Well there is spying on by Feds. Public suspicion and hatred.
    But to be fair Esmith, reread what I wrote. I said there is persecution in the Middle East of Muslims. Being bombed by Americans. Being invaded by Americans. Colonized. Having puppet dictators springing up.

    As Imam Anwar AlAwlaki said in his last message to America which went roughly, 'Do you expect to be able to ruin thousands of lives and not get slapped back?'
     
  20. esmith

    esmith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    7,989
    Ratings:
    +784
    Religion:
    No name designated at this time.
    You appear to be attempting to sidetrack the question that started this:

    I thought I answered your question, but just in case you didn't understand my answer "It is no". Now, do you think it is okay for a Muslim to preach jihad in the United States and if so why?
     
Loading...