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Featured Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, May 10, 2017.

  1. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    So? I think Harry Potter is amazing, and would love to actually go to Hogwarts.

    Neither your opinion nor mine, will alter actual reality; the bible remains a claim-- it cannot be offered up as proof-- too much bias within it's covers.
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Yes the Bible is specific, but the archaelogical evidence does not match this claim of the times and places the Israelites conquered.
    Unfortunately one destruction of a city does not translate to a Hebrew invasion of Canaan nor Judea, and more recent archaelogical dating of the siege of Jericho does not correspond to the Biblical Exodus.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    First, there is absolutely no evidence of the existence of the text of Exodus as well as the Pentateuch before 700 BCE. Second, there is no evidence of a witness (historian?) writing of Exodus, nor is there any known documented author.
     
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  4. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Jayhawker I went to Amazon which has everything all they have on the topic are books about Egyptian Gods and Goddesses Caanan Gods Godesses not about the Jews God heres an example

    upload_2017-5-12_19-20-49.png

    Every thing written on the topic you selected about The Jewish Exodus and there are some, theyre written by Christians from a Christian perspective I imagine.
     
  5. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, IMO.
     
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  6. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    According to Insight on the Scriptures V.1,p.785: "Moses’ writership of Exodus has never been questioned by the Jews. Egyptian expressions used are indicative of a writer contemporary with the times, and not of a Jew born later.
    Accuracy, Truthfulness. On the part of the writer of Exodus “an intimate acquaintance with Ancient Egypt may be discerned. The position of the Egyptians with respect to foreigners—their separation from them, yet their allowance of them in their country, their special hatred of shepherds, the suspicion of strangers from Palestine as spies—their internal government, its settled character, the power of the King, the influence of the Priests, the great works, the employment of foreigners in their construction, the use of bricks, . . . and of bricks with straw in them, . . . the taskmasters, the embalming of dead bodies, the consequent importation of spices, . . . the violent mournings, . . . the fighting with horses and chariots . . .—these are a few out of the many points which might be noted marking an intimate knowledge of Egyptian manners and customs on the part of the author of the Pentateuch.”—The Historical Evidences of the Truth of the Scripture Records, by George Rawlinson, 1862, pp. 290, 291.
    The events in Exodus are referred to frequently by other Bible writers, long before 700 B.C.E.
     
  7. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    I disagree. Even in minor details, the Bible matches what is known to be historical fact. For example," On the part of the writer of Exodus “an intimate acquaintance with Ancient Egypt may be discerned. The position of the Egyptians with respect to foreigners—their separation from them, yet their allowance of them in their country, their special hatred of shepherds, the suspicion of strangers from Palestine as spies—their internal government, its settled character, the power of the King, the influence of the Priests, the great works, the employment of foreigners in their construction, the use of bricks, . . . and of bricks with straw in them, . . . the taskmasters, the embalming of dead bodies, the consequent importation of spices, . . . the violent mournings, . . . the fighting with horses and chariots . . .—these are a few out of the many points which might be noted marking an intimate knowledge of Egyptian manners and customs on the part of the author of the Pentateuch.”—The Historical Evidences of the Truth of the Scripture Records, by George Rawlinson, 1862, pp. 290, 291." (Insight v.1, p.785)
     
  8. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    Archeologists often disagree over such dating. I believe such dates, whether confirming or disputing the Bible account, need to be viewed with caution.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Revisiting the OP though we have since had discussion about these points already:
    We do not have archeological finds that suggest it, but in fact the Bible is not saying to us anything as it is written to Jews. We are not Jews, so it is not saying that to us. It is saying something to them. Its like a love letter. You cannot really know everything that is being said unless its to you.

    Just to recap what you and I already discussed. The pyramids were built by paid workers (Yes), but there were slaves some of whom may have been Hebrews. I do not know of archeological evidence that all Hebrews were slaves, but I do know of archaeological evidence that Israel was mentioned by an Egyptian pharoah and that Egypt regularly captured slaves from nine oppressed cultures. I will add slavery was common everywhere not just Egypt until the last century, but what Egypt was famed for was its glorification of pillage and kidnapping as a virtue and for spreading this like a disease. It had lots of amazing architecture, but it froze progress and cultural transformation for millennia. Other kings and kingdoms sought to emulate its success and wealth. Nasty business!

    As this is not written to us it should not be taken as a historical claim, and I think it is not intended to be one. It is like a purloined instrument with unmarked controls and buttons. We don't know for sure what it does, only where we got it.
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    A rightfully view older dating and research with caution.

    I go with the latest and most comprehensive archaeological discoveries, research and dating methods.

    From: Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho? A New Look at the Archaeological Evidence

    Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho? A New Look at the Archaeological Evidence

    "The story of the Israelite conquest of Jericho (Joshua 2-6) is one of the best known and best loved in the entire Bible. The vivid description of faith and victory has been a source of inspiration for countless generations of Bible readers. But did it really happen as the Bible describes it?

    The site has been excavated several times in this century. Based on the conclusion of the most recent excavator, British archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon, most historians and Bible scholars would answer with a resounding "No, certainly not! There was no city there at the time Joshua supposedly conquered it."

    Some 30 years after her excavation of the site – indeed, 12 years after Kenyon’s death – the detailed evidence has now become available in the final report. So it is time for a new look.

    Ancient Jericho is located at Tell es-Sultan, next to a copious spring on the western edge of the Jordan Valley, just north of the Dead Sea. The site’s excellent water supply and favorable climate (especially in winter) have made it a desirable place to live from the very beginning of settled habitation. A Neolithic settlement at the site goes back to about 8000 B.C.E.,* thus giving Jericho the distinction of being the world’s oldest city. At 670 feet below sea level, it is also the lowest city in the world.

    The site is strategically located. From Jericho one has access to the heartland of Canaan.1 Any military force attempting to penetrate the central hill country from the east would, by necessity, first have to capture Jericho. And that is exactly what the Bible (Joshua 3:16) says the Israelites did."
     
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  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    “In Harry Potter, an intimate acquaintance with the socio political realities of late 20th century UK may be discerned. The incompetence, corruption and indecision that plagues the democratic political organization, the ever increasing threat of racist xenophobia, terrorism and fundamentalism and the ideological politicization of education. The customs and manners of teenage society are realistically portrayed as well as the weaknesses, and often cruel indifference of foster care systems. Overall all of this conclusively demonstrates the historical reliability of the Harry Potter chronicles in portraying the real and secret world of wizards in UK"

    Muggle theologian writing in 23rd century
     
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  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And what if that's not what the text says?

    Oh, never mind. You're obvious way too invested in your pompous little tirade.​
     
  13. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes of course the bible writers knew all about Egyptian manners customs and politics. They knew all about it because they lived back then in that culture, but it doesn't mean they weren't writing a myth for their own reasons. If they d not even lived back then or knew about their own biblical society the whole entire bible would be worthless.

    Yes of course they did. But in everything you said, I still didn't hear a word about archaeological finds of old relics or gold or statues of Gods and goddesses big ones like the bible said they made( those would've lasted forever) or jewish pottery jewelry anything belong to the Jewish community buried in the desert. I hav'nt heard a word about fining chariots in the red sea either. What scientific finds and archaeological finds have been made that scientifically prove The Exodus in the bible?
     
  14. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    False. And that is as far as I got-- if you begin with a flat lie, as you did here?

    Mentioning existing things in a novel does not mean the novel is real.
     
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  15. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    If I got the text wrong? Why did you not attempt to correct the text? No?

    You'd rather sling insults and quit. Nice game of Pigeon Chess. Lucky for me? My chess board is acrylic, and I have a gallon of windex to clean up after you...
     
  16. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    Something like that. But the world is far less dangerous when we put our trust in God and let him fight our battles.
     
  17. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Somehow I don't think that's worked out for a lot of people...
     
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  18. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    The story of the exodus of the Jews is a story of a journey of people going from enslavement to holiness. This journey can not be completed over night. It takes time, but more than that it takes trust in God. A person or a people must allow themselves to be guided by God. To do otherwise one would be wandering aimlessly. The Jews that had left Egypt were not worthy to enter the promise land. It was the next generation of Jews. A generation is 40 years. The Jews as a whole had to be transformed or regenerated. We can also use terms like reborn or born from above. Why did God choose the Jews? It’s a two way street. God Choose the Jews because the Jews chose God. By choosing God they took their first step toward freedom. The journey to freedom is only complete when everything else is left behind. What is left is only God. It is then when one enters God’s shelter.

     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Secondarily, because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum and to once again address the matter with supporting references struck me as a waste of time.
    Primarily, because your haughty certitude strikes me as impenetrable, rendering any such exchange an even greater waste of time.

    Nevertheless ...

    You wrote "There is/was zero evidence supporting 40 years of millions of individuals living in a very tiny area, just North-East of Egypt." to which I replied "And what if that's not what the text says?".

    Briefly ...
    1. Many have noted that the number 40 is employed symbolic in Hebrew scripture. See, for example, the Jewish Encyclopedia.
    2. G.E. Mendenhall and others have argues that 'elef, the Hebrew word for thousand, earlier referred to a clan subunit or contingent. (I should note here that I've read some compelling discussions countering Mendenhall's argument.)

    For the record, I am not a literalist. I view the Exodus narrative as, among other things, the source of intriguing and valuable clues concerning Israelite ethnogenesis. I also view much of the noise (such as yours) directed against this narrative as intellectually shallow efforts to reduce Syro-Palestinian archaeology to a tool for bible-bashing wielded by those who could care less about the history and archaeology of Israel and who, in all too many cases, have never read a book on the topic, preferring instead Google searches mitigated by selection bias.
     
  20. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Apparently, chariots/axles/wheels have been found in the Red Sea.

    If you do a quick search ("chariots Red Sea", etc.), you can check out some images and find info about it.
     
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