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Featured Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, May 10, 2017.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    @The Anointed

    Great link, thanks.

    This puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus."
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Two of the most influential German scholars von Rad and Noth argued, "The Exodus and Sinai traditions and the events behind them were originally unrelated to one another" (Nicholson 1973, 1). Von Rad saw the Sitz im Leben of the Sinai covenant in the feast of Tabernacles celebrated at Shechem while the settlement tradition was celebrated at Gilgal with the feast of Weeks. Von Rad also saw Heilsgeschichte (salvation history) strikingly silent about Sinai events (Deut. 26:5b-9). Noth put forth the idea that "early Israel took the form of a tribal league on the analogy of the city-state confederations later attested in Greece and Italy and known to the Greeks as "amphictyonies" (Nicholson 1973, 12-13).

    On the other hand Weiser vigorously debated the view that the Sinai and Exodus traditions were independent of one another (Nicholson 1973, 33).

    In 1954 Mendenhall put forth the idea that the Sinai covenant is similar to the Hittite suzerainty treaties (1954, 50-76).

    Nicholson concludes that one is at an "impasse" since none of these views are convincing (1973, 53).

    IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
     
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    When are you going to tell us how long the Jews reckon that the Israelites were in Egypt, before they left in 1567 B.C.?
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Before the discovery of this stele scholars placed the date of the exodus and entry into Canaan much later.

    They were now forced to admit that Israel was already in Canaan at the time of Merneptah.

    This puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus."

    Much more evidence in the link below.

    IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first-born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the heavens, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

    A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

    Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

    Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

    Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

    The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

    All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

    In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

    Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

    Each morning the desert floor was covered with a film of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

    Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

    The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

    As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

    And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567B.C.

    Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

    Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

    Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

    But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

    1540 B.C., is also closer to The date given by Josephus the Historian for the expulsion of the Israeli shepherds in 1567B.C.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again as usual: See post #245.

    You certainly cut and past from poor scholars, don't you?

    radiocarbon dating analysis of that OLIVE TREE which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

    But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

    1540 B.C., is also closer to The date given by Josephus the Historian for the expulsion of the Israeli shepherds in 1567B.C.
     
    #247 The Anointed, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Santorini erupted nearly 400 years before the fictional Exodus. I know you want it to fit, but it simply doesn't.

    Further, the Hyksos were not Israelites.... and they weren't Shepherd Kings. Josephus made a mistake.. They were "foreign kings".. probably Amorites/Hurrians/Hitites.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    This puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus."

    Much more evidence in the link below.

    IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    The mixed Amorite – Hurrian kingdom of Yamhad is recorded as struggling for this area with the early Hittite king Hattusilis I around 1600 BCE.

    Hurrians also settled in the coastal region of Adaniya in the country of Kizzuwatna, southern Anatolia. Yamhad eventually weakened vis-a-vis the powerful Hittites.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Wisdom of Solomon - Early Jewish Writings
    www.earlyjewishwritings.com/wisdom.html
    Information on Wisdom of Solomon. First, the afterlife is described in terms of the Hellenistic dualism which debases matter in contrast to the immortality of the soul, rather than the Judaic concept of the resurrection of the body (cf. the remarkably beautiful passage in 3:1-9, also such vss. as 8:13).
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    soda wrote...….. Santorini erupted nearly 400 years before the fictional Exodus. I know you want it to fit, but it simply doesn't.

    First of all you accept that the Israelites were the shepherd Kings as verified by Josephus and other Scholars closer to the event than the erroneous scholarship that you are so fond of cut and pasting, And your must reveal how long the Israelite were in Egypt before you can make the false claim that Santorini which erupted in the 15th century B.C. (Forget about that Olive tree mother) occurred before the exodus of the Israelite Shepherds in 1567 B.C.

    soda wrote...….. Further, the Hyksos were not Israelites.... and they weren't Shepherd Kings. Josephus made a mistake.. They were "foreign kings".. probably Amorites/Hurrians/Hitites.


    he Anointed …….. No mate, It is you and your erroneous modern scholars who are mistaken, the Israelites were the Shepherd Kings and they left Egypt in 1567, as Josephus revealed. But I must agree with you in the fact that they were foreign Kings, they came from Canaan, after Abraham had moved there from the Land of the Sumerians, who like Abraham were Shemites/Semites.

    Nighty Nigh girly, I might see you tomorrow if time permits.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    There is NO evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt.

    The Hyksos were Hurrians and Amorites.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think these have the same story and confirm what the Bible tells:

    Famine Stela - Wikipedia

    Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    The famine Stela is not old enough.


    [​IMG]
    The Famine Stela, with some carved sections missing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Location of the Famine Stela in Egypt

    The Famine Stela is an inscription written in Egyptian hieroglyphs located on Sehel Island in the Nile near Aswan in Egypt, which tells of a seven-year period of drought and famine during the reign of pharaoh Djoser of the Third Dynasty. It is thought that the stele was inscribed during the Ptolemaic Kingdom, which ruled from 332 to 31 BC.

    Third dynasty being Djoser was much too early for the Exodus story.

    Djoser - Ancient History Encyclopedia
    Ancient History EncyclopediaDjoser
    Definition
    . Djoser (also known as Netjerikhet, Tosorthos, and Sesorthos, c. 2670 BCE) was the first king of the Third Dynasty of Egypt, reigning for over twenty years.

     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    It is well known that the Pyramids weren't build by slaves, but by Egyptian citizens. Archeologists have actually also discovered the so-called "worker village". Based on what was found there, it was quite clear that these workers were well taken care off, had lots of access to food etc.

    There is no such proof or evidence.
    It never happened.
     
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  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Claims aren't evidence of themselves.
     
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  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the stratosphere, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

    A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

    Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

    Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

    Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

    The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

    All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

    In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

    Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

    Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

    Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

    The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

    As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

    And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that they departed Egypt in 1567B.C.

    Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

    Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

    Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that 'OLIVE TREE,' which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that 'PARTICULAR LAVE FLOW' in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

    But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

    And you in your ignorance and rejection of biblical history, say that there is no proof or evidence of the many plagues God put on Egyptians and that Jews crossed the red sea.
     
    #258 The Anointed, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    @TagliatelliMonster

    The Santorini eruption was between 1642–1540 BCE long before the Exodus story.. and if you look at a map its silly to think a volcanic event in the Med would result in the Red Sea parting.

    Josephus wasn't born until 37 AD long after the crucifixion so he wouldn't have any first hand knowledge of the Exodus.

    The Pyramids were finished long before the Jews were supposedly in Egypt and the Hyksos were not Israelites or "shepherd kings"..

    They were Amorites, Hurrians and Hitites.

    The Wisdom of Solomon or Book of Wisdom is a Jewish work, written in Greek, composed in Alexandria (Egypt). Generally dated to the late first century BC

    Your plate tectonics are weak.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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