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Ecological Transition: EVs will replace all ICE cars

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Whoa, you're saying some studies find it's NOT 97% but rather 99% or 100%!! Imagine, not one single scientist in the entire world (and elsewhere) that disagrees w/ AGW.

Just don't look at any skeptic websites.

btw, you started out saying "97% of the world's climate scientists say that this climate change is mostly caused by higher CO2 and methane" and now you're saying "the finding of 97% consensus that humans are causing recent global warming in published climate research". You see the difference between what the world scientist say, and what's published in selected as climate research?Interesting, but there was nothing there that said exactly what kinds of change in the climate was caused by how much C02 --all I got was it was (somehow) bad.

If we were serious, we'd just say that CO2 causes a greenhouse effect trapping x amount of calories of heat raising the x amount of isolated mass (a calorie has to raise the temp of an isolated mass) x amount of degrees consistently over the past 300 years. We'd focus on AGW because that's what CO2 does. We're not serious. Political yes, but not scientifically serious.
You simply do not know what you're talking about as the peer-reviewed scientific journals are very consistent on this in the last 2-3 decades.

As we've so many times, the driving force of such climate-change deniers is not the science but is right-wing politics, so my guess is that's where you're coming from. Instead of doing such politics [or whatever], maybe get a subscription to "Scientific American", such as which I've had for over four decades now, whereas the results of studies going back that far have seen the results if myriads of international studies as more and more evidence was coming in.

Either way, I'm done dealing with your disingenuous nonsense, thus this is my past post with you, at least on this topic. And I leave this with wondering what Baháʼu'lláh would say about your tactics here?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So it looks like we're reaching our impasse, but I want to thank you for taking time to get into this w/ me, I really want to understand what so many very good people believe. Unfortunately our convo's getting bogged down in trivia and the main issues (what temps are we measuring showing what mass is how much hotter) are being ignored.

My take is that the real obstacle here is that the issue has long since become politicized. Instead of a nuts'n'bolts scientific issue everyone's sunk into an "us-verus-then" quarrel. Instead of research moving forward we got people being vilified. Don't get me wrong though, politics is good because it's what people do & people are good. Likewise science is good too & it's science that I'm interested in now.

So we can call it a day and I DO thank u for ur time.
What part of climate science do you want to discuss? I have tried to create a thread on global warming science earlier that you can take a look at. I can continue that if you are interested.
The Science of Global Warming : Explained
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Some thoughts and questions:

1. The weather here will probably not permit much bicycling. (I live in the huge state of Texas.) For instance, all of February and March the pollen is crazy. Then we have a very long and very hot summer, starting in June and running through at LEAST September, maybe even longer. It rains a lot here in the spring. So basically, winter - which can also be cold. So not sure when we'd ride bikes, but I do know this. I live in a small city in Texas and we have bike trails and lanes all over the place and I rarely see anyone using them.

2. Just yesterday a friend of mine and I used my SUV with the seats down to transport a bench and a rug. Couldn't have done that on a bicycle or a train. Not easily anyway.

3. I bought my SUV mainly because I a) transport my large dogs regularly and b) transport furniture regularly (see above for an example).

4. Speaking of transporting things, I live in a suburban area about twenty minutes from my work. There are simply no trains and no buses between my small suburban area (aka a bedroom community) and the larger city where I work. I personally like it that way but that's just me, I guess. I moved here to avoid living in a larger city though.

5. So how is that supposed to work again? My property taxes are already high.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Fuel prices.
Culture.

When I watch TV shows like All Creatures Great &
Small, I wonder how their tiny cars can ever pass
each other on roads the size of my driveway.

Let's just say there's a whole lot of backing up going on.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
No, you were clearly wrong and I am not the only one that sees it.

Do you know why your sources are not written by skeptics?
You know, I can't help but agree w/ u. If I got into anything here I want to be the first to admit I'm wrong to do so because my goal is not to convince anyone about anything, but rather my goal is to find out what the grain of truth is to this whole AGW thing.

All I want is to know is what temp measurements are showing what mass is heating up how much. If anyone knows I'd be grateful.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You know, I can't help but agree w/ u. If I got into anything here I want to be the first to admit I'm wrong to do so because my goal is not to convince anyone about anything, but rather my goal is to find out what the grain of truth is to this whole AGW thing.

All I want is to know is what temp measurements are showing what mass is heating up how much. If anyone knows I'd be grateful.
It is hard to measure global warming at any one site. Some spots have warmed more than others. Some may have even cooled. What has been done is that multiple ways of measuring temperature have been set up Countless land based weather centers. Measurements from space. Measurements from space and by other means of different layers of the atmosphere. By they way, one prediction of global warming was that one particular level of the atmosphere would cool down. And I need to learn a bit more myself to understand fully why one of the upper levels would cool/ Perhaps, and this is just me speculating, the increased insulation of the lower atmosphere cut off heat from the Earth temporarily.

I could post the video where that was discussed by a physicist that took a deep dive into the Greenhouse Effect. I have to admit that here understanding is better than mine. I could also try to post some of the data for you of AGW, but what good would raw numbers do?

There are a couple of areas where global climate can be measured, And this is Greenland and Antarctica. Isotope analysis is the tool that is used. This is more for paleo climates since it shows longer term change. The amount of O18 in water is a good indicator of ocean temperatures. Higher temps mean more O18 lower temperatures correspond to less o18:

Isobar Science
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
You know, I can't help but agree w/ u. If I got into anything here I want to be the first to admit I'm wrong to do so because my goal is not to convince anyone about anything, but rather my goal is to find out what the grain of truth is to this whole AGW thing.

All I want is to know is what temp measurements are showing what mass is heating up how much. If anyone knows I'd be grateful.
Something like this?
Measuring Earth’s Albedo
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The climate science computer projections have been off for decades. The models tend to predict too high in terms of global warming. Based on the earlier models, that got the machine moving, polar caps should be melted by now and the ocean levels should be much higher. The false alarm and sky is falling tells me they were underestimating the impact of natural climate change and/or were over selling manmade.

I am not saying the earth is not warming. The earth has naturally warmed and cooled many times over the past billion years. There are lots of geological evidence even for the current warming. For example, we are still warming from the last ice age. When this current long cycle of warming began, the Glaciers were as far south as NYC. They melted back a few thousand miles worth of glaciers, before we even had modern science records. But now the marketers act like glacier melting is new. I am not saying that greenhouse gases do not add something to atmospheric heating, but the models over estimate this contribution.

The initial marketing from 20 year ago was global warning. This was not happening as fast as predicted, so one day the marketeers repackaged the sales pitch and called it climate change, since this was far more nebulous and less quantitative. This fuzzy approach has worked so far in terms of the layman. Everything new to you can be attributed to fuzzy variable climate change. Global warming was based on a hard number and not a fuzzy dice.

The main greenhouse gas on earth is not CO2 or Methane. It is water. Unlike CO2 and Methane which are gases, water can exist as a gas, a liquid and a solid all at the same time, both on the earth's surface and in the earth's atmosphere. As the earth's temperature increases, the water in the atmosphere will increase, as the ocean evaporate more water, adding to the water's share of the greenhouse affect. Unlike CO2 and Methane gases, water can change phase to solid, liquid or vapor due to weather with each having a different affect.

Ice; solid water, for example, has the opposite affect as water vapor. Ice reflects solar heat and acts like opening the window in the greenhouse, with this window not just in the polar caps, and mountain glaciers, but also in the atmosphere as ice crystals.

Another problem with the greenhouse gas model, is that CO2 is not a one way valve for heat. The current model assumes the CO2 heat capacity starts out empty and as heat rises, it get trapped by the CO2, filling its energy levels. But solar heat does the same thing from the outside when it hits the atmospheric CO2; moderates incoming heat. If you buy insulated windows, they will keep you cooler in summer; block solar heat, and warmer in winter; block heat loss to outside.

Another problem has to do with the normalization of data. When the first modern science records of weather and climate began about 1880, global temperature was measured by analog weather devices; mercury thermometer, averaging a very limited number of places, on the earth's surface.

Today we have so many more ways and methods for measuring temperature; from space, and have added many more measurement points, to get a better global average. The result is apples and oranges; 1880 to now, since the old way was much more limited.

My suggestion is there should be a parallel science project; ole timer science, that copies the placement and tools of 1880, before satellites, so we can normalize the current data, and see if all the modern bells and whistles is adding something extra, that puts a thumb on the data scale. If both do show the same thing, we can save money by not pretending we need so many extra things; science candy store. I suggest this normalization years ago and it still has not happened.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The climate science computer projections have been off for decades. The models tend to predict too high in terms of global warming. Based on the earlier models, that got the machine moving, polar caps should be melted by now and the ocean levels should be much higher. The false alarm and sky is falling tells me they were underestimating the impact of natural climate change and/or were over selling manmade.

I am not saying the earth is not warming. The earth has naturally warmed and cooled many times over the past billion years. There are lots of geological evidence even for the current warming. For example, we are still warming from the last ice age. When this current long cycle of warming began, the Glaciers were as far south as NYC. They melted back a few thousand miles worth of glaciers, before we even had modern science records. But now the marketers act like glacier melting is new. I am not saying that greenhouse gases do not add something to atmospheric heating, but the models over estimate this contribution.

The initial marketing from 20 year ago was global warning. This was not happening as fast as predicted, so one day the marketeers repackaged the sales pitch and called it climate change, since this was far more nebulous and less quantitative. This fuzzy approach has worked so far in terms of the layman. Everything new to you can be attributed to fuzzy variable climate change. Global warming was based on a hard number and not a fuzzy dice.

The main greenhouse gas on earth is not CO2 or Methane. It is water. Unlike CO2 and Methane which are gases, water can exist as a gas, a liquid and a solid all at the same time, both on the earth's surface and in the earth's atmosphere. As the earth's temperature increases, the water in the atmosphere will increase, as the ocean evaporate more water, adding to the water's share of the greenhouse affect. Unlike CO2 and Methane gases, water can change phase to solid, liquid or vapor due to weather with each having a different affect.

Ice; solid water, for example, has the opposite affect as water vapor. Ice reflects solar heat and acts like opening the window in the greenhouse, with this window not just in the polar caps, and mountain glaciers, but also in the atmosphere as ice crystals.

Another problem with the greenhouse gas model, is that CO2 is not a one way valve for heat. The current model assumes the CO2 heat capacity starts out empty and as heat rises, it get trapped by the CO2, filling its energy levels. But solar heat does the same thing from the outside when it hits the atmospheric CO2; moderates incoming heat. If you buy insulated windows, they will keep you cooler in summer; block solar heat, and warmer in winter; block heat loss to outside.

Another problem has to do with the normalization of data. When the first modern science records of weather and climate began about 1880, global temperature was measured by analog weather devices; mercury thermometer, averaging a very limited number of places, on the earth's surface.

Today we have so many more ways and methods for measuring temperature; from space, and have added many more measurement points, to get a better global average. The result is apples and oranges; 1880 to now, since the old way was much more limited.

My suggestion is there should be a parallel science project; ole timer science, that copies the placement and tools of 1880, before satellites, so we can normalize the current data, and see if all the modern bells and whistles is adding something extra, that puts a thumb on the data scale. If both do show the same thing, we can save money by not pretending we need so many extra things; science candy store. I suggest this normalization years ago and it still has not happened.
Citation needed.

By the way, I know that you are wrong since you did not use any proper qualifiers. There are several climated models. Some of them have run high, some of them have run low. ButI recall correctly the average ones have been right on.

So please, prove that computer predictions have been off for decades. Cherry picking only those on the top end will be a fail on your part.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
Yes that's interesting, and it confirms what I'm saying that the info should be open and available but it's sidelined and hard to pin down. No temperature --ok, they got into anomalies but that's not temperatures. They're not saying what mass is heating. If their saying that it's the entire earth heating then we can forget about SUV's, fossil fuel, greenhouse etc. because that can't change the entire earth. Also, the record only goes from 2000 to 2011; is this weather or climate?.

But the measurement of heat flow over the entire earth is the right track tho.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes that's interesting, and it confirms what I'm saying that the info should be open and available but it's sidelined and hard to pin down. No temperature --ok, they got into anomalies but that's not temperatures. They're not saying what mass is heating. If their saying that it's the entire earth heating then we can forget about SUV's, fossil fuel, greenhouse etc. because that can't change the entire earth. Also, the record only goes from 2000 to 2011; is this weather or climate?.

But the measurement of heat flow over the entire earth is the right track tho.
The information is open and available. How are you going to interpret it??
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The climate science computer projections have been off for decades.
"Projections" are "estimates".

Based on the earlier models, that got the machine moving, polar caps should be melted by now and the ocean levels should be much higher
Absolutely false, and I dare you to find any actual scientific source that supposedly said that.

The initial marketing from 20 year ago was global warning. This was not happening as fast as predicted,
It's actually taking place faster than predicted as the rapid melt at the poles have shown us. Antarctica has less snow on the ground than that ever recorded.

PLEASE use actual scientific sources! NASA, NOAA, the NAS, Scientific American, Smithsonian, National Geographic Society, etc, for examples.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes that's interesting, and it confirms what I'm saying that the info should be open and available but it's sidelined and hard to pin down.
Took me ten minutes. 20 seconds the search for it on DuckDuckGo (no fancy Goggle scholar) and the rest of the time to evaluate the content.
No temperature --ok, they got into anomalies but that's not temperatures.
It is temperature, or more precisely change in temperature, you see on the maps.
Ideally the measurements should be taken from much further away to get a single data point. As it is we see trees but no forest. But we can find averages using maths.
So, the raw data is out there and easy to find, if you know what and where to look. I admit that that is not for everyone as you have to have a basic knowledge of science. If you don't have that, you have to rely on others to interpret the data for you. Good luck finding a trustworthy source that doesn't have an agenda.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
Took me ten minutes. 20 seconds the search for it on DuckDuckGo (no fancy Goggle scholar) and the rest of the time to evaluate the content.

It is temperature, or more precisely change in temperature, you see on the maps.
Ideally the measurements should be taken from much further away to get a single data point. As it is we see trees but no forest. But we can find averages using maths.
So, the raw data is out there and easy to find, if you know what and where to look. I admit that that is not for everyone as you have to have a basic knowledge of science. If you don't have that, you have to rely on others to interpret the data for you. Good luck finding a trustworthy source that doesn't have an agenda.
Ah, so you're not willing to say what temps have heated what mass how much. Nobody else seems to know either.

Thanks for ur time, cheers!
 
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