Eating With Sinners

[idav]

Is it OK to eat with sinners according to scripture? Does Paul contradict Jesus regarding eating with sinners?

Mark 2
15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

 

[Deeje]

Good question! It has a simple answer in the second scripture you quoted.

1 Corinthians 5
"9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves."

Do you see the distinction that Paul made in 1 Corinthians 5?

Jesus associated with unbelievers who were sinners so that he could preach to them and offer them a better way to live now and a wonderful hope of everlasting life under the rulership of his Kingdom.

Paul was saying that if a Christian "brother" was guilty of such sin then he was committing an offense that went against everything Christ taught. He said that the congregation shepherds should judge those "within" the congregation, whilst God judges those "without" or outside of the congregation. The recommendation was to expel the unrepentant wrongdoer until he came to his senses.

 

[psychoslice]

Well didn't Jesus supposed to eat and mingle with so called sinners, I think that verse was written by some arrogant writer that somehow made its way into the scriptures.

 

[Kemosloby]

Is it OK to eat with sinners according to scripture? Does Paul contradict Jesus regarding eating with sinners?

Mark 2
15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

No Paul doesn't contradict. Paul says "if any man calls himself a brother" and does those things. Which means they could have been sinners and have now repented of sin. So Paul is saying if someone repents and goes on sinning to have nothing to do with them. And in the case of Jesus eating with sinners it is the Pharisees accusing him of it. So the Pharisees only know them as sinners based on their pasts, but have no clue about repentence and forgiveness, not recognizing their sins were wiped clean.

 

[Glaurung]

Well didn't Jesus supposed to eat and mingle with so called sinners, I think that verse was written by some arrogant writer that somehow made its way into the scriptures.

God invites everyone to repentance, not unconditional licence. Thus those within the Christian community who fall into grave and obstinate sin cannot in good conscience be permitted full-participation within that community.

 

[psychoslice]

God invites everyone to repentance, not unconditional licence. Thus those within the Christian community who fall into grave and obstinate sin cannot in good conscience be permitted full-participation within that community.

God wants his own way, simple as that, please don't make excuses for him, he is a psychopath.

 

[Glaurung]

God wants his own way, simple as that, please don't make excuses for him, he is a psychopath.

God's own way is for us to know eternal happiness with him. Yet, he has left it to each individual to decide whether or not to accept that offer. The real sociopaths are those who side against their own happiness out of a pride ultimately borne from an attachment to sin.

The reality that so many just can't accept is that God isn't morally neutral. He is good.

 

[psychoslice]

God's own way is for us to know eternal happiness with him. Yet, he has left it to each individual to decide whether or not to accept that offer. The real sociopaths are those who side against their own happiness out of a pride ultimately borne from an attachment to sin.

The reality that so many just can't accept is that God isn't morally neutral. He is good.

that is silly.

 

[Glaurung]

that is silly.

Think of it this way. God has given you the freedom to live your life however you wish, it's just that your choices whatever they may be, will ultimately have consequences both physical and spiritual. Do drugs, and you may ruin your health. Sleep around, and you may get an STD. Ultimately, if you live sinfully and die unrepentant, you will not be able to live with God. In the Catholic tradition, this means Hell; an eternal and conscious separation from God and all the misery and pain that comes with that loss.

Of course Deeje as a JW will disagree with me about the nature of Hell, but the principal is the same. If you want to live with God, then you must step up to a higher standard. God demands this because he is holy.

 

[Deeje]

Of course Deeje as a JW will disagree with me about the nature of Hell, but the principal is the same.

The "hell" I believe in is eternal separation from God but it is not experienced consciously. "Sheol" in Hebrew is "hades" in Greek. Neither mean conscious torment forever but a death from which no resurrection is possible. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) No one is alive in sheol.

Since God is love, and conscious torment in hell forever is not loving, I must reject the notion. It is not a teaching that Jews believed. The destiny of man according to the OT was "life or death" not "heaven or hell".

Deuteronomy 30:19-20:
" I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days..."

If you want to live with God, then you must step up to a higher standard. God demands this because he is holy.

On this we agree. God's standards must be our standards. If we love God, we will hate sin. If our flesh is weak and overpowers us, genuine, heartfelt repentance is the only position from which forgiveness can come. It is covered by the blood of Christ.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

With out exception we are all sinners.
Where could we possibly draw the line, as to the burden of unrepented sin that would stop us association with another sinner.
We neither know, nor have any way to measure our own, nor any other persons burden of sin.
Forgiveness is the Lord's.
He came to save us sinners. We should be striving to truly repent and help others to do the same.
We can not do that by excluding them from our lives.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Indeed, as we are all supposedly all sinners (though this would make me question why Jesus says the doctor goes to the sick, not the well, if the well don't exist...), other than safety (inviting the serial rapist/killer over for tea might be a bad idea), I don't see why we should really differentiate one petty sin from another.

edit:

Think of it this way. God has given you the freedom to live your life however you wish, it's just that your choices whatever they may be, will ultimately have consequences both physical and spiritual. Do drugs, and you may ruin your health. Sleep around, and you may get an STD. Ultimately, if you live sinfully and die unrepentant, you will not be able to live with God. In the Catholic tradition, this means Hell; an eternal and conscious separation from God and all the misery and pain that comes with that loss.

Ah, but if we are rewarded on earth, we aren't rewarded for it in heaven. I think it stands to reason if you are punished on earth, you aren't punished in heaven. An unrepentant sinner who died because of their sin was, in fact, punished, yes? Thus, they walk up to the pearly gates with everyone else.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You can gather from contextual clues of the cited passages that this term 'Sinners' refers to those who do not keep kosher, Sabbaths and other commandments. Its not the same thing as idolatry, fornication, covetousness etc. Those things are in a different class. The Hebrew has multiple terms that are unfortunately only represented by one term in the Greek Koine 'Sin'. When you read the term 'Sin' in a NT book you have to demux it using context and whether its talking about things like murder, covetousness, etc. or if its talking about washing your hands. The sins are not all the same thing.

 

[Brickjectivity]

To finish the thought: Jesus is saying that he is willing to become unclean for the sake of helping someone else. A classic example is when he touches a leper in the process of healing them. This certainly makes him unkosher ceremonially, and certain places and people are off limits to him until he performs certain ceremonial rites. The gospel writer need not go into detail as its all in Leviticus. So Jesus is just saying that you shouldn't be afraid to get dirty to help someone out. This is like the parable of the servants entrusted with talents. You are like a talent that has to be invested, not buried. He's saying that if you don't ever go near other people for fear of losing yourself, then you are wasting your potential. Risk yourself.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

To finish the thought: Jesus is saying that he is willing to become unclean for the sake of helping someone else. A classic example is when he touches a leper in the process of healing them. This certainly makes him unkosher ceremonially, and certain places and people are off limits to him until he performs certain ceremonial rites. The gospel writer need not go into detail as its all in Leviticus. So Jesus is just saying that you shouldn't be afraid to get dirty to help someone out. This is like the parable of the servants entrusted with talents. You are like a talent that has to be invested, not buried. He's saying that if you don't ever go near other people for fear of losing yourself, then you are wasting your potential. Risk yourself.

Jesus never demonstrated that anyone or any thing was off limits to him.
The greater the sin the greater the potential benefit.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus never demonstrated that anyone or any thing was off limits to him.
The greater the sin the greater the potential benefit.

Do you agree it is an axiom and in the axiom that all people are relatively evil equally in comparison with the ideal? This appears to me to be a theme which begins right along with Moses and which the gospels repeat. To us our differences appear significant, but compared to the ideal we tend to have about the same level of evil and goodness. Instead of judging and fearing others its possible to 'Zoom out' and see that the differences are not so huge, nor are our lives so permanent or significant. Our blood is all the same color, same hearts, same problems etc. There is an emphasis I think on realizing that and not focusing upon our relatively minor differences.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Is it OK to eat with sinners according to scripture? Does Paul contradict Jesus regarding eating with sinners?

Mark 2
15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

Paul seems to contradict Jesus on numerous occasions, including with regard to what is required to enter the "kingdom of God," Paul stating that the statement "Jesus is Lord" is enough while Jesus explicitly states that not everyone who calls him "Lord" will be saved.

 

[psychoslice]

Think of it this way. God has given you the freedom to live your life however you wish, it's just that your choices whatever they may be, will ultimately have consequences both physical and spiritual. Do drugs, and you may ruin your health. Sleep around, and you may get an STD. Ultimately, if you live sinfully and die unrepentant, you will not be able to live with God. In the Catholic tradition, this means Hell; an eternal and conscious separation from God and all the misery and pain that comes with that loss.

Of course Deeje as a JW will disagree with me about the nature of Hell, but the principal is the same. If you want to live with God, then you must step up to a higher standard. God demands this because he is holy.

Yes that is fine if you believe in a god, you are then under the thumb of that belief, to me personally its just a belief.

 

[Oeste]

Paul seems to contradict Jesus on numerous occasions, including with regard to what is required to enter the "kingdom of God," Paul stating that the statement "Jesus is Lord" is enough while Jesus explicitly states that not everyone who calls him "Lord" will be saved.

I think when I was attending a works based religion this would have been difficult to answer. But the church I attend now is faith rather than work based, so the answer is rather straightforward.

I totally agree with the answer Deeje gave in post #2, but would be interested in how any of her JW friends would answer this one.

 

[idav]

Good question! It has a simple answer in the second scripture you quoted.

1 Corinthians 5
"9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves."

Do you see the distinction that Paul made in 1 Corinthians 5?

Jesus associated with unbelievers who were sinners so that he could preach to them and offer them a better way to live now and a wonderful hope of everlasting life under the rulership of his Kingdom.

Paul was saying that if a Christian "brother" was guilty of such sin then he was committing an offense that went against everything Christ taught. He said that the congregation shepherds should judge those "within" the congregation, whilst God judges those "without" or outside of the congregation. The recommendation was to expel the unrepentant wrongdoer until he came to his senses.

I do notice what Paul is saying there though it seems to me rather backwards to treat "non-brothers" better than your own brother. We are all sinners which requires great compassion across all human beings, even those with different beliefs according to Jesus. Paul doesn't appear to have the forgiveness and compassion that Jesus espoused.

No Paul doesn't contradict. Paul says "if any man calls himself a brother" and does those things. Which means they could have been sinners and have now repented of sin. So Paul is saying if someone repents and goes on sinning to have nothing to do with them. And in the case of Jesus eating with sinners it is the Pharisees accusing him of it. So the Pharisees only know them as sinners based on their pasts, but have no clue about repentence and forgiveness, not recognizing their sins were wiped clean.

Is there truly any person on earth that just doesn't go on sinning, which is the whole point of forgiveness?