Eat the Rich

[Nakosis]

Or watch a film.

Erin Brockovich who now has a net worth of 10 million?
Doesn't sound like she is an anti-capitalist.

 

[Nakosis]

The younger generation.... as per my OP. They're up against it though.

The link shows a lot of thinking and generalization by millennials looking for something to blame other than themselves for their plight.

 

[Stevicus]

The problem is the individual and the politician, not capitalism.

Such problems are due to insufficient regulation and government oversight, which capitalists routinely oppose.

If there was a more effective way of weeding out the bad apples in capitalism, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Yerda]

Actually it does. There is the ten thousand people other people involved that have a self interest in clean water.

Yet here we are pouring filth into the river.

Ten thousand people is a pretty large collective of self-interest you assume two individuals could work against without consequence or repercussion.

I assume they could unless we have strict and enforceable laws against polluting sources of drinking water, mandatory regulation of industry, and public health programs.

Now, in my experience the word for this is government.

 

[Nakosis]

Yet here we are pouring filth into the river.

Which has nothing to do with capitalism as an economic system.

I assume they could unless we have strict and enforceable laws against polluting sources of drinking water, mandatory regulation of industry, and public health programs.

Now, in my experience the word for this is government.

Which we have. Doesn't seem to be working. So the answer to fix something that we can see isn't fixing the problem is to have more of it?

 

[Nakosis]

Such problems are due to insufficient regulation and government oversight, which capitalists routinely oppose.

If there was a more effective way of weeding out the bad apples in capitalism, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

Which greedy individuals oppose. Capitalism doesn't require greed to work. However yes, it is in some people's nature to be greedy. Socialism is not going to prevent that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Which has nothing to do with capitalism as an economic system.



Which we have. Doesn't seem to be working. So the answer to fix something that we can see isn't fixing the problem is to have more of it?

The solution to cleaner water & air isn't switching to
a failed economic system like socialism. It's to have
useful environmental regulations.

Fans of socialism & communism erroneously presume
that these systems are inherently wise & just...always
accomplishing the right goals. But they're run by the
same species of hominid, so governmental regulation
is still necessary. And as history shows, the results
are universally dismal compared to capitalism.

 

[Heyo]

The problem is the individual and the politician, not capitalism.

The problem is the individual who decided to act according to capitalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem is the individual who decided to act according to capitalism.

And the problem with socialism is that the individual
doesn't get to act....the people decide for you.
What if you don't like their decision? Tough titties.

 

[Yerda]

Which has nothing to do with capitalism as an economic system.

The self-interest of ten thousand people poisoned by their drinking water being unable to match the self interest of the handful of people pouring toxins into the water for profit has everything to do with capitalism. It is the ownership of capital and its utility in creating wealth that grants the power to pass the costs of production onto society.

Insofar as capitalism is a productive enterprise this is an inherent problem in capitalism, wouldn't you agree?

Which we have. Doesn't seem to be working. So the answer to fix something that we can see isn't fixing the problem is to have more of it?

No, just to do it right and enforce it properly. We have many examples of how this can be done and invariably it begins by placing the public good above profit. Often this works best with the cooperation of the industries in question.

Out of curiosity, what methods would you advocate we use to compell good civic behaviour from powerful private interests?

 

[Heyo]

Which has nothing to do with capitalism as an economic system.

Capitalism allows for and even requires to cut costs in order to maximize profit (for the capitalist). I.e. someone who doesn't pollute if it saves costs, is a bad capitalist. So, yes, capitalism has greed as its prime directive and corruption as a direct consequence.

 

[Revoltingest]

The self-interest of ten thousand people poisoned by their drinking water being unable to match the self interest of the handful of people pouring toxins into the water for profit has everything to do with capitalism.

What of people sickened & killed from Chernobyl, which
was noble socialism's carelessness about pollution.

No economic system inherently protects people & the
environment. People & their government must value
such protections....whatever economic system they have.

 

[Heyo]

And the problem with socialism is that the individual
doesn't get to act....the people decide for you.
What if you don't like their decision? Tough titties.

In a democratic socialism (or social democracy), you are the people and you can influence politics with your vote.
In capitalism, money decides politics.

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalism allows for and even requires to cut costs in order to maximize profit (for the capitalist). I.e. someone who doesn't pollute if it saves costs, is a bad capitalist. So, yes, capitalism has greed as its prime directive and corruption as a direct consequence.

What's your alternative to capitalism...something
with a better historical record?

 

[Yerda]

The solution to cleaner water & air isn't switching to
a failed economic system like socialism. It's to have
useful environmental regulations.

Fans of socialism & communism erroneously presume
that these systems are inherently wise & just...always
accomplishing the right goals. But they're run by the
same species of hominid, so governmental regulation
is still necessary. And as history shows, the results
are universally dismal compared to capitalism.

Despite being a raging commie, I actually largely agree with that.

 

[Revoltingest]

In a democratic socialism (or social democracy), you are the people and you can influence politics with your vote.
In capitalism, money decides politics.

Merely declaring it to be "for the people" doesn't make it so.
Doing away with capitalism means having a government
powerful enuf to prevent free economic association. This
level of power has historically always led to oppression
both economic & social.
If your real goal is environmental protection, socialism
doesn't offer that. The people must steer their government
to ensure that, which is doable under capitalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Despite being a raging commie, I actually largely agree with that.

Perhaps you're not really a commie at all.
You have goals which might be better
achieved in wise regulation of capitalism.

 

[Heyo]

What's your alternative to capitalism...something
with a better historical record?

Something new. We have tried "communism" and it didn't work. We tried capitalism and we see that it doesn't work. (Some see it, others bury their heads in the sand because they fear new things.)
And as long as we haven't found something better, regulate the hell out of capitalism, especially the corrupting influences.

 

[Yerda]

What of people sickened & killed from Chernobyl, which
was noble socialism's carelessness about pollution.

Not everyting bad is capitalism and not everything good is its absence.

No economic system inherently protects people & the
environment. People & their government must value
such protections....whatever economic system they have.

Agreed.

I would say that capitalism is geared towards environmental destruction on the same grounds that you would say socialism is geared towards economic failure - it's what we see when we look at the record.

 

[Revoltingest]

In a democratic socialism (or social democracy), you are the people and you can influence politics with your vote.
In capitalism, money decides politics.

You propose eliminating capitalism?
Where's the historical example of that succeeding?