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Featured Earth: 0% religion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Xavier Graham, Oct 3, 2022.

  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Going back 20 or 30 thousand years there are no indications of religion. It only began to show after the first civilisations developed
     
  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Fair point.
    I was thinking more in terms of political development, comparing secular and religious societies, for example.
    Agreed, tribalism and the precursors of religion both seem hard-wired.
    Not all problems, but life does seem better in the more secular, democratic societies. I agree that removing religion would be problematic but religiosity does seem related to security, diminishing in stable, secure, égalitarian societies.
     
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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast The Fabulous
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    Are you talking about the Pirahã?
     
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  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What would you consider indications?
    My disagreement is with the implication that there's a post hoc relationship.
     
  5. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    No, to ban all organized religion is a case of organized religion.
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Artifacts.

    Religion always produces artifacts, jewelry, documentation, painting sculpture etc.
     
  7. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    True but we have indications of proto-religious behaviour from 2 million years ago. (Ritual burial) The "Venus von Willendorf" is 25,000 years old and has been connected to a fertility cult (with very thin evidence, but non-the-less).
     
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  8. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Secular societies are very culturally contingent. Even the idea of the possibility of splitting religion/secular can be seen as culturally contingent.

    There is some truth in this, but secular democratic societies are the product of a particular cultural tradition that has a large debt to a certain type of religion.

    These societies have also generally been peaceful and prosperous domestically post WW2 and we only have a short timescale to go on.

    So we have a potential correlation/causation problem, and also the problem of not knowing whether these are simply short term blips that will not stand the test of time.

    We also have the 20th C totalitarianisms to show we can easily make up new belief systems that are worse than what came before.
     
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  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Tribal thanks for the food that sustains them or art works... i dont really see as a religion. There are lots of cro magnon works of art around my home area, not one of religion.

    I've also investigated ritual burials of Neanderthals, proto religion? Possibly more likely honour of loved ones
     
  10. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    I think they are the best described and best known.
     
  11. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    We also have cognitive sciences showing human tendencies towards "religious type" worldviews.

    There is at least a reasonable case to be made that "religion" of some form is the default for (non-infant) humans.
     
  12. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    OK, but, save documentation, those things did exist 20 or 30 thousand years ago. Moreover, I don't think they're necessarily artifacts of religion.
     
  13. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    I'm also not happy with anthropologist everything they don't understand calling "cultic" or "religious" but burials and ancestor worship is still pretty much connected to religions. It could have been appropriated by religion but it seems more likely that religion rose from it. Inventing myths about an afterlife are a religious thing.
     
  14. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Yes, though I would call it "superstition" or "spirituality". Religion only seems to forms in cultures above the Dunbar's Number threshold.
     
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  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    They certainly don't appear to be religious artifacts. More likely tribal heirlooms

    Documentation comes in several forms. I have recently seen a series of cave paintings that depict a hunt of aurochs, it's clear that at least 1 hunter lost their life in the hunt and that 2 aurochs were killed. Another giving rudimentary instructions on trapping wild horses.

    I can see thousands of such pieces of cave art. I never see any on religion.
     
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  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Ancestor worship, animal worship tranquil glade worship, i think probably were a stepping stone to religion.
     
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  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    "Religion" can be a pretty broad subject, not necessarily connected with theology or even worship. A belief or set of beliefs that manifests an ethic in a society might be considered religious. Such beliefs/rules/attitudes would be needed for group solidarity and cohesion even in small, band-based societies.
     
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  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    That's as i see it but call it tribalism rather than religion. Religion grew from it with several additions to make a full blown religion
     
  19. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Currently, everyone is an atheist. :rolleyes:o_O

    The so-called Abrahamics worship a FALSE god.:rolleyes:
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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