Earth: 0% religion

[ChristineM]

But there are plenty of non-civilized cultures even today. They all seem to have their religions -- though some hunter-gatherer cultures don't divide it into a separate cultural category.
I don't think religion is an artifact of civilization. I blame neurology.

Going back 20 or 30 thousand years there are no indications of religion. It only began to show after the first civilisations developed

 

[Valjean]

I hate to ruin your illusion, but that certainly isn't any kind of "default"...

Both history and, increasingly, science attest to this.

Fair point.
I was thinking more in terms of political development, comparing secular and religious societies, for example.

The human brain is hard wired to promote tribalism. Removing religion won't magically change our evolved cognition.

Agreed, tribalism and the precursors of religion both seem hard-wired.

It's a nice comforting myth to think our problems can be solved by removing religion, but it's about as likely as the return of Jesus.

Not all problems, but life does seem better in the more secular, democratic societies. I agree that removing religion would be problematic but religiosity does seem related to security, diminishing in stable, secure, égalitarian societies.

 

[Left Coast]

First, there would be no atheists. A-theism is a result of theism. And it seems there is a way of humans to have no religion as there are (very few) tribes in the Amazon who don't have a concept of gods.

Are you talking about the Pirahã?

 

[Valjean]

Going back 20 or 30 thousand years there are no indications of religion. It only began to show after the first civilisations developed

What would you consider indications?
My disagreement is with the implication that there's a post hoc relationship.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hmm. Organized religion is easy to picture being banned.

All spirituality is harder to imagine. But let's go with that. Is it even possible?

No, to ban all organized religion is a case of organized religion.

 

[ChristineM]

What would you consider indications?
My disagreement is with the implication that there's a post hoc relationship.

Artifacts.

Religion always produces artifacts, jewelry, documentation, painting sculpture etc.

 

[Heyo]

Going back 20 or 30 thousand years there are no indications of religion. It only began to show after the first civilisations developed

True but we have indications of proto-religious behaviour from 2 million years ago. (Ritual burial) The "Venus von Willendorf" is 25,000 years old and has been connected to a fertility cult (with very thin evidence, but non-the-less).

 

[Augustus]

I was thinking more in terms of political development, comparing secular and religious societies, for example.

Secular societies are very culturally contingent. Even the idea of the possibility of splitting religion/secular can be seen as culturally contingent.

Not all problems, but life does seem better in the more secular, democratic societies. I agree that removing religion would be problematic but religiosity does seem related to security, diminishing in stable, secure, égalitarian societies

There is some truth in this, but secular democratic societies are the product of a particular cultural tradition that has a large debt to a certain type of religion.

These societies have also generally been peaceful and prosperous domestically post WW2 and we only have a short timescale to go on.

So we have a potential correlation/causation problem, and also the problem of not knowing whether these are simply short term blips that will not stand the test of time.

We also have the 20th C totalitarianisms to show we can easily make up new belief systems that are worse than what came before.

 

[ChristineM]

True but we have indications of proto-religious behaviour from 2 million years ago. (Ritual burial) The "Venus von Willendorf" is 25,000 years old and has been connected to a fertility cult (with very thin evidence, but non-the-less).

Tribal thanks for the food that sustains them or art works... i dont really see as a religion. There are lots of cro magnon works of art around my home area, not one of religion.

I've also investigated ritual burials of Neanderthals, proto religion? Possibly more likely honour of loved ones

 

[Heyo]

Are you talking about the Pirahã?

I think they are the best described and best known.

 

[Augustus]

True but we have indications of proto-religious behaviour from 2 million years ago. (Ritual burial) The "Venus von Willendorf" is 25,000 years old and has been connected to a fertility cult (with very thin evidence, but non-the-less).

We also have cognitive sciences showing human tendencies towards "religious type" worldviews.

There is at least a reasonable case to be made that "religion" of some form is the default for (non-infant) humans.

 

[Valjean]

Artifacts.

Religion always produces artifacts, jewelry, documentation, painting sculpture etc.

OK, but, save documentation, those things did exist 20 or 30 thousand years ago. Moreover, I don't think they're necessarily artifacts of religion.

 

[Heyo]

Tribal thanks for the food that sustains them or art works... i dont really see as a religion. There are lots of cro magnon works of art around my home area, not one of religion.

I've also investigated ritual burials of Neanderthals, proto religion? Possibly more likely honour of loved ones

I'm also not happy with anthropologist everything they don't understand calling "cultic" or "religious" but burials and ancestor worship is still pretty much connected to religions. It could have been appropriated by religion but it seems more likely that religion rose from it. Inventing myths about an afterlife are a religious thing.

 

[Heyo]

We also have cognitive sciences showing human tendencies towards "religious type" worldviews.

There is at least a reasonable case to be made that "religion" of some form is the default for (non-infant) humans.

Yes, though I would call it "superstition" or "spirituality". Religion only seems to forms in cultures above the Dunbar's Number threshold.

 

[ChristineM]

OK, but, save documentation, those things did exist 20 or 30 thousand years ago. Moreover, I don't think they're necessarily artifacts of religion.

They certainly don't appear to be religious artifacts. More likely tribal heirlooms

Documentation comes in several forms. I have recently seen a series of cave paintings that depict a hunt of aurochs, it's clear that at least 1 hunter lost their life in the hunt and that 2 aurochs were killed. Another giving rudimentary instructions on trapping wild horses.

I can see thousands of such pieces of cave art. I never see any on religion.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm also not happy with anthropologist everything they don't understand calling "cultic" or "religious" but burials and ancestor worship is still pretty much connected to religions. It could have been appropriated by religion but it seems more likely that religion rose from it. Inventing myths about an afterlife are a religious thing.

Ancestor worship, animal worship tranquil glade worship, i think probably were a stepping stone to religion.

 

[Valjean]

"Religion" can be a pretty broad subject, not necessarily connected with theology or even worship. A belief or set of beliefs that manifests an ethic in a society might be considered religious. Such beliefs/rules/attitudes would be needed for group solidarity and cohesion even in small, band-based societies.

 

[ChristineM]

"Religion" can be a pretty broad subject, not necessarily connected with theology or even worship. A belief or set of beliefs that manifests an ethic in a society might be considered religious. Such beliefs/rules/attitudes would be needed for group solidarity and cohesion even in small, band-based societies.

That's as i see it but call it tribalism rather than religion. Religion grew from it with several additions to make a full blown religion

 

[syo]

What if everyone was an atheist?

Currently, everyone is an atheist.

The so-called Abrahamics worship a FALSE god.

 

[Valjean]

Religion – Discovering Cultural Anthropology