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Dzongchen

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear endless arising ,

Separating rigpa from mind comes WAY before recognition of anatta and dependent arising. Vidya is knowledge, yes,

seperating rigpa from mind comes like a bolt of lightning in the night sky !

but knowledge of what? Anatta and dependent arising. These are characteristics of your true nature. If you have realization of anatta and dependent origination, then that is rigpa.
no not just anatta ..... Vidya is knowledge , but knowledge of the true nature of phenomena ...... All Phenomena .. !!!! ...every thing , the profound nature of reality !
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Not having a conceptual framework is like getting in a car and not knowing where you're going. You need to have some idea of the goal. Even "non-conceptual" is an idea which has certain meaning, assumptions, etc. So you have to get the right idea of non-conceptual and not reify something. Many people these days have wrong view of Dzogchen and think Rigpa is the same as Self of Advaita. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said many times that Dzoghen is not same as Advaita. There are certain Dzogchen "teachers" like Surya Das and Jackson Peterson who pretty much teach Dzogchen as Advaita. They themselves had direct transmission from masters, but I guess that wasn't enough. Clearly something was missing. And as evidenced by the people who have progressed further with the right conceptual model, that's the essential variable which is necessary.

Setting any goal of practice runs counter to the nature of realization. There should be no thought of goal or gain or loss or control. Also, I would point out that there are a couple different Advaita traditions, not just a definitive ADVAITA. As you know, advaita only means something like "not dual."
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Also, you both talk of a lot of stages, this comes before this comes before this. I've never experienced any "stages" before. In my experience, there has never been anything nearly concrete as a stage where I could say "I am here."

You can't just make realization happen like it's some thing that happens to someone, even trying to realize something goes against the nature of practice and no fruit will yield. I dont mean to say that you are insinuating that, but whether you mean to say it or not, I got that impression so im clarifying.
 
dear endless arising ,



seperating rigpa from mind comes like a bolt of lightning in the night sky !

no not just anatta ..... Vidya is knowledge , but knowledge of the true nature of phenomena ...... All Phenomena .. !!!! ...every thing , the profound nature of reality !

Dependent origination/emptiness is the true nature of phenomena. This is what Vidya refers to.
 
Setting any goal of practice runs counter to the nature of realization. There should be no thought of goal or gain or loss or control.

And that itself is a goal. Sitting down and "not setting a goal" is an idea, the idea then furthers and motivates the action, which then creates the behavior. We can't escape goals and ideas.

The first goal in Dzogchen is to have recognition of Rigpa. This is a goal. In order to have that recognition, you need to have the goal of understanding what to look for, how to get there, etc. Then you need to have the goal of stabilizing Rigpa, because it can be easily lost. Then after Rigpa is stabilized, the advanced tantric practices of Togal are employed which involve various postures in order to experience the Four Visions. The goal then is to perform the practice and experience the Four Visions.

Can't escape it. Without ideas and goals, we'd get nothing accomplished.

Also, I would point out that there are a couple different Advaita traditions, not just a definitive ADVAITA. As you know, advaita only means something like "not dual."

All the traditions, whether different or not in methods, have the same focus and are really not that different.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear endless arising ,

Hmm? This is the Vajrayana forum.

Oh yes , so it is
To be a Vajrayana practitioner, if that's indeed what you are, requires study.
and that is indeed what I have done , not only studied but practiced , is that ok may I continue now ? :p


No Dzogchen master would ever say that you do not need to study and know right view. Dzogchen is not about being intellectually lazy and pretending that you can get to non-conceptual wisdom without integrating the right conceptual frameworks. This is a misconception some have about Dzogchen. Same with Zen. No Buddhist tradition says you do not need the right conceptual framework for awakening.
"interlectualy lazy ".....? you are not insinuating that I am lazy, or that I am ..."pretending "....?

what happened to right speach ?:D

oh you are lucky that I dont care !!!:D

and as for misconceptions ....
dzogchen is not in it self entirely buddhist it is dzogchen !
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
And that itself is a goal. Sitting down and "not setting a goal" is an idea, the idea then furthers and motivates the action, which then creates the behavior. We can't escape goals and ideas.

The first goal in Dzogchen is to have recognition of Rigpa. This is a goal. In order to have that recognition, you need to have the goal of understanding what to look for, how to get there, etc. Then you need to have the goal of stabilizing Rigpa, because it can be easily lost. Then after Rigpa is stabilized, the advanced tantric practices of Togal are employed which involve various postures in order to experience the Four Visions. The goal then is to perform the practice and experience the Four Visions.

Can't escape it. Without ideas and goals, we'd get nothing accomplished.



All the traditions, whether different or not in methods, have the same focus and are really not that different.

But there is nothing really to accomplish. You're right, you can make no having a goal into a goal, but I believe it can not be done too. The way Bodhidharma put it is simply halting. I can sit here and decide how I want to get rid of this jar in my hand, but as long as I keep it in my grip (my control) and with whatever intention I cant get rid of it, so I just let go of the jar instead. Anyway, the hand, the jar, and the object are all simply projections anyway. To set a goal sets a dualistic mind where the current state is a certain thing, it is undesirable, there is a future state that is desirable and there is a means to go from this current state to the future state. While certain goal oriented tactics can move one forward, the ultimate realization is that the beginning, means, and goal were the same place the whole time. Right now, everything is the way it is, the only problem is that we haven't recognized that thus are attached to absent forms as actually absolutely existing. Maybe im not as educated as you are in the technical, but hell, we know Hui Neng realized without even basic training.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
I would also cite an interesting example, though I can't source it. I remember a recent story (at least the last few decades) where some of the Tibetans were imprisoned by the Chinese. One of them was a Lama who practiced Dzogchen. Though of course they were prohibited from practicing Buddhism in the prison, he successfully taught the other prisoners Dzogchen and they all attained realization of rigpa. If all things are rigpa, the crux of the matter is failing to recognize the suchness of the situation. But our delusions are only sustained by our belief in them, so when practicing the meditation of non-meditation, one simply sits and relaxes presently and, as Tilopa put it

Let go of what has passed
Let go of what may come
Let go of the present
Do not try to figure anything out
Do not try to make anything happen
Relax, right now, and rest.

To accept or deny any phenomena that arise is not the practice, the practice isn't even a practice. Any thing is just a mental hologram. Like when we used to not read, we didnt see words, then we learned slowly how to pronounce and read, now we dont even read, we simply recognize the words. This is because our mind stores mental pictures of what things are and superimposes them onto the raw sensory data collected by the sense organs. Same goes for anything else, there is a mental image of what something is and we experience concrete things, but we are really only experiencing these images (not just visual images, naturally). Our problem is investment in these holograms as actually real.

So, goal oriented practice only continues to sustain our ideas that things are the way they are and there is an escape from these things.
 
But there is nothing really to accomplish. You're right, you can make no having a goal into a goal, but I believe it can not be done too. The way Bodhidharma put it is simply halting. I can sit here and decide how I want to get rid of this jar in my hand, but as long as I keep it in my grip (my control) and with whatever intention I cant get rid of it, so I just let go of the jar instead. Anyway, the hand, the jar, and the object are all simply projections anyway. To set a goal sets a dualistic mind where the current state is a certain thing, it is undesirable, there is a future state that is desirable and there is a means to go from this current state to the future state. While certain goal oriented tactics can move one forward, the ultimate realization is that the beginning, means, and goal were the same place the whole time. Right now, everything is the way it is, the only problem is that we haven't recognized that thus are attached to absent forms as actually absolutely existing. Maybe im not as educated as you are in the technical, but hell, we know Hui Neng realized without even basic training.

Bodhidharma was not a Dzogchen teacher. We are talking about Dzogchen I thought. The path of Dzogchen requires goals. It's not like some Zen schools where you pretend you're already enlightened. It's not about getting to a certain future state, but changing habitual karmic processes in order to gain insight. Right now everything is the way it is, but the next moment is different, and so is the next moment, and so on. These moments are not the same. Through our actions, we create the future. And so we must create the conditions and causes for awakening.
 
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DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Bodhidharma was not a Dzogchen teacher. We are talking about Dzogchen I thought.

I just see no reason to separate those who have demonstrated a knowledge of the way things are by putting them in categories.

The path of Dzogchen requires goals. It's not like some Zen schools where you pretend you're already enlightened. It's not about getting to a certain future state, but changing habitual karmic processes in order to gain insight. Right now everything is the way it is, but the next moment is different, and so is the next moment, and so on. These moments are not the same. Through our actions, we create the future. And so we must create the conditions and causes for awakening.

Honestly, I can only cite the writings of Lonchenpa in which he explicitly states that goal oriented activity is delusive. The Dzogchen teachings of Longchenpa are considered more radical that other Dzogchen teachings, and these are the teachings that I have followed for my lack of a physical teacher.

Incidentally, I took the precepts in the Soto school of Zen, so I know a wee bit about those practices, and while there is the acknowledgement that we are Buddhas, there is also the acknowledgement that one has to practice to realize enlightenment. That's the teaching of being enlightened before you are enlightened. SO! Does an enlightened person engage in goal oriented activity? The practice of zen is the practice of life. A bird can try all he can to leave his element without even moving within it, and he will fail. Ultimately, I dont think the practices are all that different when it comes to the marrow of it.


So, what was the point of our discussion again?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend DF,

You are probably using the picture of Samantabadri Samantabadra as the avatar.
Rgds the practice it appears in line with Left hand path of tantra [sanatan dharma]
Evolution or change being permanent, certain local adaptations always take place according to the influences present.

Love & rgds
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Friend DF,

You are probably using the picture of Samantabadri Samantabadra as the avatar.
Rgds the practice it appears in line with Left hand path of tantra [sanatan dharma]
Evolution or change being permanent, certain local adaptations always take place according to the influences present.

Love & rgds

You mean my avatar? It's of the Mahasiddha Vinapa. He was a musician who obtained realization through music:

With perseverance and devotion
I mastered the vINA’s errant chords;
But then practicing the unborn, un-struck sound
I, VINApa, lost my self.
(Dowman, 1985, p 91)

So, as I am a musician, I like to relate to a Mahasiddha who was also a musician.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Did you receive transmission and teachings from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche? He's a great teacher.

Unfortunately I have not yet had a physical teacher, I live in a place that's pretty far from any teachers from any traditions. So, I read teachings and use intuition to guide through them :shrug:

I have received the precepts in the Soto school, but I have not worked one on one with a teacher.
 
Unfortunately I have not yet had a physical teacher, I live in a place that's pretty far from any teachers from any traditions. So, I read teachings and use intuition to guide through them :shrug:

I have received the precepts in the Soto school, but I have not worked one on one with a teacher.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's teachings are pretty worldwide with many communities. He openly offers Dzogchen transmissions and teachings through webcast. Where do you stay?
 
Unfortunately I have not yet had a physical teacher, I live in a place that's pretty far from any teachers from any traditions. So, I read teachings and use intuition to guide through them :shrug:

I have received the precepts in the Soto school, but I have not worked one on one with a teacher.


Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives transmission through a video webcast... and you can become a member of Dzogchen Community and purchased restricted materials after transmission. PM me if you want more info.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives transmission through a video webcast... and you can become a member of Dzogchen Community and purchased restricted materials after transmission. PM me if you want more info.

So are you saying that after watching a video of NN on the web, you can go to Rangjung Yeshe and obtain a copy of Circle of the Sun ?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend DF,

I mastered the vINA’s errant chords;
But then practicing the unborn, un-struck sound
I, VINApa, lost my self.

Sorry, could not follow that part of practicing the unstruck sound? on the vina??
kindly clarify.
Personally rest my mind on the unstruck sound at most time unless the mind is required or slips to its old mode of thinking.
Love & rgds
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Friend DF,



Sorry, could not follow that part of practicing the unstruck sound? on the vina??
kindly clarify.
Personally rest my mind on the unstruck sound at most time unless the mind is required or slips to its old mode of thinking.
Love & rgds

Im not sure on the details of his practice, but I believe it had to do with meditation on pure sound; I dont think he means unstruck sounding of the vina.
 
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