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Featured Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    POST ONE OF TWO

    Hi @BilliardsBall


    I like your reference to the resurrection that was to be accomplished by the messiah. The ancient Jews would have read into certain texts, the promise of the future resurrection that was accomplished by the Messiah at his death. Of all the accomplishments the Messiah is accredited with, the fact that he returned from death and accomplished the resurrection of mankind is one of the greatest evidence of his divinity for those who witnessed his resurrection and the resurrection of those who resurrected with him.


    THE MESSIAH ACCOMPLISHES THE RESURRECTION IN CONCERT WITH GOD HIS FATHER


    For examples from the Old Testament/Tanakh with some historical context

    1) 1 Sam 2:6 of the Old Testament speaks of the resurrection which was accomplished by the Messiah, saying “The Lord puts to death and makes alive. He leads down into Hades and leads up [from hades].

    Such old testament references were immersed in the context of early beliefs and tradition concerning the promised resurrection. For example, the Jews and Judaism that became known as Christianity or Messianic Judaism possessed a lot of literature that explained their interpretations and beliefs which both paralleled the Old Testament Text and placed it into context.

    And God sent Michael the archangel, and he said to them, “Seth, man of God, do not labor, praying with this supplication about the tree from which the oil flows, to anoint your father Adam; it shall not come to be yours now (but at the end of times. 3 Then all flesh from Adam up to that great day shall be raised, such as shall be the holy people; then to them shall be given every joy of Paradise and God shall be in their midst 5 and there shall not be any more sinners before him, for the evil heart shall be removed from them, and they shall be given a heart that understands the good and worships God alone.) Life of Adam and Eve (Apocalypse) 13:2-6;

    1 And God called Adam and said, “Adam, Adam.” And the body answered from the ground and said, “Here I am, Lord.” 2 And the Lord said to him, “I told you that you are dust and to dust you shall return. 3 Now I promise to you the resurrection; I shall raise you on the last day in the resurrection with every man of your seed.” Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 41:1-3;


    Old testament Job speaks of the resurrection accomplished by the Messiah in the following terms:
    2) Job 14:13 “For if you promise [owe] me [that] in Hades to guard me till your anger has passed!
    and appoint a time to remember me.
    14 If a man should die, will [he] yet live having completed [the] days of his life?


    The Promise of resurrection by the Messiah was not simply a religious tradition of Jobs age, but it was a religious belief from the earliest times that the Messiah would bring to pass the resurrection as he says to Adam : “ “And I said [to him], ‘You are earth, and into the earth once again you will go, out of which I took you. And I will not destroy you, but I will send you away to what I took you from. Then I can take you once again at my second coming. And I blessed all my creatures, visible and invisible. And Adam was in paradise 5 hours and a half.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1

    The early Hellenistic prayers spoken in the Synagogues reflect the promise of resurrection of mankind from death which was accomplished by the Messiah Jesus. The text reassures us just as Job says : 49 And in time, having caused him to fall asleep for a while, you called (him) by an oath to a new birth; having dissolved the boundaries of death, you promised life by resurrection! 51 And not only this; but also those who poured forth from him, to become and innumerable multitude… Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (Prayer #12) vs 12:46-51, 61-62 (AposCon 8.112.6-27);


    The Judaism that accepted the Messiah and then became known as Christianity believed in this promise as well. Ignatius taught “who, moreover, really was raised from the dead when his Father raised him up, who–his Father, that is–in the same way will likewise also raise us up in Christ Jesus..” Ignatius to the Trallians 9:2;



    3) Old Testament Job 19:25 testifies concerning the Messiah/redeemer : (M) I know that my redeemer[c] lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in] my flesh I will see God; 27 I myself will see him with my own eyes. I, and not another.

    This text from Job in the Masoretic bible of medieval ages is describing the same prior tradition of the Jewish Enochian literature of 300 b.c. that “ those who have been destroyed in the desert, those who have been devoured by the wild beasts, and those who have been eaten by the fish of the sea. So that they all return and find hope in the day of the Elect One. For there is no one who perishes before the Lord of the Spirits, and no one who should perish.” And in the next verse, they bless the Messiah, the “Word of God”, Jesus, who accomplished this task as part of the Atonement. Thus the text continues : 7 And him, the First Word, they shall bless, extol, and glorify with wisdom 1st Enoch 61:5-7;




    4) Old Testament Isaiah 25:8 Testifies of the Messiah that he swallows up power [of] death. The Sovereign Lord wipes away every tear from every face; he removes the people’s disgrace from all the earth. The mouth of the Lord has spoken. 9 In that day they will say, “Behold our God upon whom we hoped and he saves [heals] us. This is the Lord, we waited for him; we exulted and were glad our salvation.”

    The Jewish Enochian literature provides more context as to why there is such gladness in the resurrection into Salvation. “as it is written, “After two days he will revive us, on the third day he will raise us and we shall live in his presence.” 3rd Enoch 28:10


    5) Old Testament Isaiah 26:18-19 testifies of the Messiah / deliverer / redeemer thusly “…your deliverance [which] you have done upon the earth, we shall not fall. But all those dwelling upon the earth shall fall. The dead shall arise and the ones in the sepulchers shall be raised, and the ones in the earth shall be glass, for by you they are cured but the land of impious shall fall.



    6) Famously, the Old Testament prophet Ezekiel 37:11 testifies of the Messiah/redeemer : Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is lost; we are perished.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Lord [of] Lord [vs] says: I open your tombs and I will lead you up out of them and into the land of Israel. . 13 And you, will know that I am the Lord, by my opening your graves [and] leading you up out of your graves O my people. 14 I will give you my Spirit and you will live, and I will put you into your own land and you will know that I the Lord have spoken and I did it, declares the Lord.’”


    The Jewish literature describes and gives context to this Jewish-Christian belief underlying the Old testament literature “Then the heavenly one will give souls and breath and voice to the dead and bones fastened with all kinds of joinings....flesh and sinews and veins and skin about the flesh, and the former hairs. Bodies of humans, made solid in heavenly manner, breathing and set in motion, will be raised on a single day…. Then Uriel, the great angel, will break the gigantic bolts, of unyielding and unbreakable steel, of the gates of Hades, not forged of metal; he will throw them wide open and will lead all the mournful forms to judgment,.... Christ, imperishable himself, will come in glory on a cloud toward the imperishable one with the blameless angels. He will sit on the right of the Great One, judging at the tribunal the life of pious men and the way of impious men. Moses, the great friend of the Most High, also will come, having put on flesh. Great Abraham himself will come, Isaac and Jacob, Joshua, Daniel and Elijah, Habbakuk and Jonah, and those whom the Hebrews killed.” Sibylline Oracles vs 221-230 & 241-248;


    7) Old Testament Daniel 12:1 relates of the resurrection that … at that time your people—everyone found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting scorn.

    Other Judeo-Christian literature provides the context underlying such Old testament Statements :

    For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice thirty years (400, 1000, in different versions) . And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left. And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. V1 p537-538 Fourth Book of Ezra 7:26

    POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
     
    #141 Clear, Aug 28, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  2. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    `POST NUMBER TWO OF TWO


    8) Similarly Old Testament Hosea 13:14 also testified concerning the resurrection and deliverance from Hades by the Messiah Jesus saying : I will deliver this people from the hand of Hades and I will redeem them from death. Where, is your punishment Death? Where is your sting death?

    Clement echoes Hosea’s sentiment in his own reference concerning the resurrection brought to pass by the Messiah :“...I will remember a good day and will raise you from your graves” 1 Clement 50:4;

    Jewish Enoch gives the same testimony concerning the Messiah and the resurrection into bodies where he likens putting on a new body as to putting on a “garment” :

    “14 The Lord of the Spirits will abide over them; they shall eat and rest and rise with that Son of Man forever and ever. 15 The righteous and elect ones shall rise from the earth and shall cease being of downcast face. They shall wear the garments of glory. 16 These garments of yours shall become the garments of life from the Lord of the Spirits. Neither shall your garments wear out, nor your glory come to an end before the Lord of the Spirits. 1st Enoch 62:15-16



    THE RESURRECTION OF MANKIND IS ONE GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THE MESSIAH

    And when the whole of creation, visible and invisible, which the Lord has created shall come to an end, then each person will go to the Lord’s great judgment. 7 And then all time will perish, and afterward there will be neither years nor months nor days nor hours. They will be dissipated, and after that they will not be reckoned. But they will constitute a single age. 8 And all the righteous, who escape from the Lords great judgment, will be collected together into the great age. 9 And after that there will be among them neither weariness <nor sickness> nor affliction nor worry nor want nor debilitation nor night nor darkness. But they will have a great light, a great indestructible light, and paradise, great and incorruptible. For everything corruptible will pass away, and the incorruptible will come into being and will be the shelter of the eternal residences.“ 2nd Enoch 65:6-10;

    @BilliardsBall

    thanks for the reminder of one of the greatest accomplishments of the messiah, that was prophesied and described and celebrated in the early Jewish literature and continues to be recognized and celebrated today by those who have accepted the Messiah and appreciate his accomplishments.

    Clear
    εινετωσεω
     
    #142 Clear, Aug 28, 2020
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  3. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    In the Bible it means. But, what do you think it means then, if not King of Jews?

    Can you show the scriptures?
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    It means 'annointed', as in with oil. It is often used on kings but not exclusively.

    Spoilered for length.
    2 Shmuel 7:10-13
    And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
    And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
    When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
    He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.


    This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

    Yeshayahu 2-4

    And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
    And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.


    People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

    Yeshayahu 11-12-13

    And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
    And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.


    The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

    Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

    And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
    And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.


    Not happened yet.

    Yirmiyahu 31:33

    And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

    Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

    Yechezkel 37:26-28

    And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
    And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
    And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.


    Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

    Micah 4:1-3

    And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
    And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off;
    and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.


    People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

    Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

    For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
    From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
    On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
    And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
    The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.


    This hasn't happened either. None of it.

    Zach 14:9-11

    And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
    The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
    And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.


    Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.
     
    #144 Rival, Aug 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey Clear, Hope you're doing well.
    I have a question concerning the following....
    Are you quoting from a Septuagint version? If so, which one?
    It's weird to see a Hebrew Scripture using the Greek term Hades.
     
  6. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Hockeycowboy

    THE ANCIENT JEWISH GREEK TRANSLATION OF 300 B.C. (SEPTUAGINT) VERSUS THE LATER JEWISH HEBREW TRANSLATION OF APPROX 900 A.D. (MASORETIC)

    Most of my quotes come from the septuagint which was the Tanakh created by the Jews in approximately 300 b.c. and is their translation into Greek. (presumably for the greek speaking Jewish population) This is also the version of the Tanakh which the Judaism that accepted the messiah and came to be called Christianity used in the main.

    The Masoretic version of the Tanakh was a medieval version made about a thousand years later between approx 700-1000 a.d. The earliest Hebrew Tanakh was translated from earlier languages into Hebrew at least as early as Jesus' time. Neither National (square script) Hebrew nor Greek are the original languages of the tanakh. All we have nowadays are translations of translations of the earliest literature based traditions.


    MOST OF THE JUDEO-CHRISTIANS WHO ACCEPTED THE MESSIAH JESUS USED/QUOTED THE MASORETIC (E.G. PAUL)

    Part of the reason to use Greek for some of these quotes is that Jews who accepted the messiah Jesus used the septuagint (LXX) in the main and not the Hebrew text. The two texts have multiple differences as one can tell. Some of the words in the various english Septuagint translations I use are quite debatable among the various versions though the greek seems stable among versions.

    For example the translation of Job 14:13 in one interlinear translation of the septuagint reads ει γαρ οφελον εν αδη and renders it "for 'ought [that] in Hades...you would have guarded me.... The problem with this translation is that οφειλω literally means "to owe" which is, I think a clumsy rendering as "ought".

    Since οφελον remains an obligation or debt to perform an action in this case (often a moral obligation) it is the equivalent of a promise. It is not money Job says he was owed, but he was owed on-going care. An action. This is why, in this context, it is less clumsy to imply that Job is promised that he will be guarded in Hades rather than "owed" the guarding by God. Such are the nuances of translation and my greek is better than my hebrew. I do not have a stutengartsia critical, so I cannot tell you what variations there may be in the underlying greek LXX text.

    In any case, I hope your journey is wonderful @Hockeycowboy

    Clear
    τωτζτζδρω
     
    #146 Clear, Aug 28, 2020
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  7. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the scriptures.

    By what the Bible tells, Jesus is the temple/house of God. God lives in Jesus.

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works…
    John 14:10

    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
    John 2:19-21

    And disciples of Jesus are part of that temple.

    But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    Romans 8:11

    Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:16

    So, in the Biblical point of view, God and Jesus built God’s temple and it is Jesus and the people that are disciples of Jesus (“Christian”). And that is why I think those prophesies really came true in Jesus.

    "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
    Luke 17:20-21
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    I guess not one Christian grasped the point of this thread...
     
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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You mean God the father lives in the Son? So does that mean Jesus not God?
     
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  10. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    B.S., ,,, I did; that's why I didn't post anything in it except this message.
     
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  11. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Hi Clear,

    I'm not here to debate you so much as I am to inquire into what exactly you mean by some of the things you've said since a few of us simply aren't clear what you're trying to put across.


    We no longer have any originals of the LXX as translated, as far as I'm aware. To which edition are you referring? As far as I'm aware, all the copies we have of the LXX are the ones done by Christians, with the rest being only fragments.

    What do you mean by 'translated'? If you refer to the fact that the Hebrew script has changed, I have no argument with you. It, however, sounds as though you are saying that Hebrew is not the original language of the Tanakh; in which case I ask you, which language do you say was?
     
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  12. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Rival

    NO "ORIGINAL" TEXTS EXIST OF ANY OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS IN EITHER GREEK OR HEBREW
    There are no originals of ANY Old testament texts in hebrew OR Greek at all. Even the earliest texts we have are simply copies of copies of versions of earlier texts. The originals of these texts reach far back into pre-written history, thus we cannot confirm what language the originals existed in nor what the originals said.

    THE TWO GREAT JEWISH VERSIONS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (SEPTUAGINT/LXX AND MASORETIC)
    If you remember, the LXX (Septuagint) was a Jewish production at it's inception. The Jews translated the Tanakh into Greek approx 300 b.c. and this is the origin of the Septuagint. The Masoretic is also a Jewish production at it's inception. The Jews produced the Masoretic version in the medieval ages approx 700-1000 a.d. and thus the Masoretic is the much younger of the two jewish versions (by almost 1000 years). The Septuagint became the more commonly quoted of these two Jewish versions as Judeo-Christianity spread from Jerusalem into the greek speaking world.


    WITH THE ADOPTION OF THE MEDIEVAL CREATION OF THE MASORETIC BIBLE, ITS USE AMONG RABBINIC JEWS ECLIPSED OTHER VERSIONS (E.G. THE LXX)
    I think that you are probably correct that, with the acceptance of the Medieval production of the Masorectic as the more official Jewish Bible of Rabbinic Judaism, the Septuagint has fallen out of favor with Rabbinic Judaism (the largest Jewish movement nowadays if I am not mistaken...).

    REGARDING WHICH VERSION/EDITION I PERSONALLY USE.
    I use various translations of the Septuagint. For example, I might refer to Brentons' version as a base text and repair any mistakes or clumsy renderings. I will sometimes use Green polyglot as a base text or comparison. I might compare specific words or phrases with a Masoretic, or English Chumash (stones) if I am lazy. While I use printed books to take notes in their margins, the problem is that both of these books have very fine print and so sometimes I will refer to an on-line version so that I can enlarge the text to more easily read the text, or another version if I want to "cut and paste".



    Historically, the language we now call "Hebrew" could not be the original language of the original books of Genesis.
    If one is a creationist, then we have no evidence that Adam spoke hebrew.
    If one is a non-creationist, then equally, we have no evidence that neanderthals spoke hebrew.

    I grew up with the silly myth that hebrew was the language Adam spoke and thus, was the "oldest language in the world". While this claim existed as a religious dogma, the claim was simply that: "a religious dogma" and it had no basis is historical linguistic reality.

    No one can actually tell us what language Adam and his children spoke in the early stages of man's existence upon the earth. While it is an old written language, linguists tell us that Hebrew, as we know it, came later in the evolution of languages. If Adam (or a Neanderthal) were telling their stories of their lives, it was, historically, not in the language we know as hebrew.

    I hope your spiritual journey is good Rival

    Clear
    τωτωτωσιω
     
    #152 Clear, Aug 30, 2020
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  13. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Hi Clear, thanks for your explanation.


    I'm not sure why this means the Tanakh itself couldn't be written in Hebrew though?
     
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  14. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Rival

    ANCIENT TEXTS CANNOT BE WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE THAT DID NOT YET EXIST
    The early portions of the Tanakh could not have been written in a language that did not yet exist. And, in the earliest portions of the Tanakh, Hebrew, as it is now known, did not exist at this time in history. Thus, the books written before the existence of Hebrew would have been written in another language once the transmission moved from oral form to the more stable written form of these traditions..

    There were multiple languages that existed prior to Hebrew which are much more likely contestants for early texts. For example, certain books of the Old Testament use borrowed words from Sumerian and Akkadian etc. (e.g. Canaanite languages) and so these are possible contestants for the languages of the early written versions (we simply don’t know in the ages of “pre-history” where evidence becomes very scanty).

    For example, speaking of the sons of Noah, moving out into the world, Genesis 10:5 tells us of the sons of Japeth, “each with it’s own language” and vs 10 speaking of Ham and his descendants “by their clans and languages”.

    The language of UR, where Abraham lived and grew for a time, was NOT Hebrew. It was also NOT the language of Aram, where the father moved the family. Abraham would have spoken the language he grew up with. Whatever that language was (presumably Canaanite or a dialect thereof) Abraham would have spoken that language, and, if he was able to write, would have written in that language.

    LANGUAGES EVOLVE AND LATER BIBLICAL TEXTS COULD BE WRITTEN IN THOSE LANGUAGES
    However, once a language similar to proto-hebrew, (paleo-phonician, etc.) came into existence, then these old portions could be translated into that language and texts could have started to be written in something like Hebrew and then finally, when the language known as Hebrew started to exist, old portions could have been again re-translated, and new portions could have started to have been written in Hebrew.

    For example, the 2nd century b.c. pseudoepigraph that made its way into the Old Testament/Tanakh by the name of “Daniel” was young enough that it could have been written in a form of Hebrew while older books could not have been.

    Good luck coming up with your own models as to how the Tanakh came to be in it's present form Rival

    Clear
    τωτωφιτωω
     
    #154 Clear, Aug 30, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  15. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Thanks for giving me your take.

    I'm not debating this as it's not the thread for it, so I'll leave this here.
     
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    @Rival,

    You are certainly welcome

    clear
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus himself says that there is only one true God that is greater than him. And Bible tells Jesus is the image of God (and temple of God, as said previously). So, by what the Bible tells, I have understood, Jesus is not the one and only true God. But, Jesus could be called god same way as Moses was called god.

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3

    …the Father is greater than I.
    John 14:28

    in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    Colossians 1:14

    And the same is confirmed by Paul:

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1 Timothy 2:5
     
  18. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Messiah (Christ) means the Anointed (anointing was a ritual for initiating prophets, kings and priests). Dead sea scrolls reveal some Jews believed there will be two or three messiahs - kingly, priestly and prophetic... Then there is also "Son of man" riding the clouds (in Daniel)...

    Christians admit Jesus has not fulfilled all prophecies yet (it will be on the second comming). Despite he seemed to fail messianic expectations he was believed to be the Messiah and other failed messiahs not. Why? Because of resurrection (see vision of Stephen and Paul).

    An article on this topic:

    Why do we call Jesus the Messiah? | U.S. Catholic magazine - Faith in Real Life
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    I'm bored so maybe I'll try once more :D

    Could the resident Christians please interpret the Messianic verses of the Tanakh without beliefs given to them by their own scriptures? That is, interpret verses in the Tanakh according to the Tanakh and not the Christian Scriptures.
     
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  20. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    This is one of the issues though. If he doesn't meet the requirements he doesn't meet them, so he's not the Messiah, and since the doctrine of 'second coming' is nowhere in the Tanakh, as far as I'm concerned you don't just get to make it up as an excuse for why your man didn't do what he's meant to.
     
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